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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:56 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/higher-eds-latest-taboo-is-bourgeois-norms-1505774818


By
Heather Mac Donald

Sept. 18, 2017 6:46 p.m. ET

To the list of forbidden ideas on American college campuses, add “bourgeois norms”—hard work, self-discipline, marriage and respect for authority. Last month, two law professors published an op-ed in the Philadelphia Inquirer calling for a revival of the “cultural script” that prevailed in the 1950s and still does among affluent Americans: “Get married before you have children and strive to stay married for their sake. Get the education you need for gainful employment, work hard, and avoid idleness. . . . Eschew substance abuse and crime.” The weakening of these traditional norms has contributed to today’s low rates of workforce participation, lagging educational levels and widespread opioid abuse, the professors argued.

The op-ed triggered an immediate uproar at the University of Pennsylvania, where one of its authors, Amy Wax, teaches. The dean of the Penn law school, Ted Ruger, published an op-ed in the student newspaper noting the “contemporaneous occurrence” of the op-ed and a white-supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Va., and suggesting that Ms. Wax’s views were “divisive, even noxious.” Half of Ms. Wax’s law-faculty colleagues signed an open letter denouncing her piece and calling on students to report any “bias or stereotype” they encounter “at Penn Law ” (e.g., in Ms. Wax’s classroom). Student and alumni petitions poured forth accusing Ms. Wax of white supremacy, misogyny and homophobia and demanding that she be banned from teaching first-year law classes.

more at website


Here's the full article. The reactions described above and in the full article below are not going away. There is very little backlash in that environment against people getting labeled with every "-ist" and "-ism" people can throw at them.


By Heather Mac Donald
Sept. 18, 2017 6:46 p.m. ET
To the list of forbidden ideas on American college campuses, add “bourgeois norms”—hard work, self-discipline, marriage and respect for authority. Last month, two law professors published an op-ed in the Philadelphia Inquirer calling for a revival of the “cultural script” that prevailed in the 1950s and still does among affluent Americans: “Get married before you have children and strive to stay married for their sake. Get the education you need for gainful employment, work hard, and avoid idleness. . . . Eschew substance abuse and crime.” The weakening of these traditional norms has contributed to today’s low rates of workforce participation, lagging educational levels and widespread opioid abuse, the professors argued.

The op-ed triggered an immediate uproar at the University of Pennsylvania, where one of its authors, Amy Wax, teaches. The dean of the Penn law school, Ted Ruger, published an op-ed in the student newspaper noting the “contemporaneous occurrence” of the op-ed and a white-supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Va., and suggesting that Ms. Wax’s views were “divisive, even noxious.” Half of Ms. Wax’s law-faculty colleagues signed an open letter denouncing her piece and calling on students to report any “bias or stereotype” they encounter “at Penn Law ” (e.g., in Ms. Wax’s classroom). Student and alumni petitions poured forth accusing Ms. Wax of white supremacy, misogyny and homophobia and demanding that she be banned from teaching first-year law classes.

Ms. Wax’s co-author, Larry Alexander, teaches at the University of San Diego, a Catholic institution. USD seemed to be taking the piece in stride—until last week. The dean of USD’s law school, Stephen Ferruolo, issued a schoolwide memo repudiating Mr. Alexander’s article and pledging new measures to compensate “vulnerable, marginalized” students for the “racial discrimination and cultural subordination” they experience.

USD’s response is more significant than Penn’s, because it is more surprising. While USD has embraced a “social justice” mission in recent decades, the law school itself has been less politicized. It has one of the highest proportions of nonleftist professors in the country—about a quarter of the faculty. Mr. Ferruolo, a corporate lawyer with strong ties to the biotech industry, presented himself until recently as mildly conservative. If USD is willing to match Penn’s hysterical response to the Wax-Alexander op-ed, is there any educational institution remaining that will defend its faculty members against false accusations of racism should they dissent from orthodoxy?

Two aspects of the op-ed have generated the most outrage. Ms. Wax and Mr. Alexander observed that cultures are not all “equal in preparing people to be productive in an advanced economy.” Their critics pounced on this statement as a bigoted, hate-filled violation of the multicultural ethic. In his response, Penn’s Dean Ruger proclaimed that “as a scholar and educator I reject emphatically any claim that a single cultural tradition is better than all others.” But that wasn’t the claim the authors were making. Rather, they argued that bourgeois culture is better than underclass culture—specifically, “the single-parent, antisocial habits, prevalent among some working-class whites; the anti-‘acting white’ rap culture of inner-city blacks.” The authors’ criticism of white underclass behavior has been universally suppressed in the stampede to accuse them of “white supremacy.”

The op-ed’s other offense was extolling the 1950s for that decade’s embrace of bourgeois virtues. “Nostalgia for the 1950s breezes over the truth of inequality and exclusion,” five Penn faculty assert in yet another op-ed for the student newspaper. In fact, Mr. Alexander and Ms. Wax expressly acknowledged that era’s “racial discrimination, limited sex roles, and pockets of anti-Semitism.”

None of the professors’ high-placed critics have engaged with any of their arguments. Mr. Ferruolo’s schoolwide letter was one of the worst examples. The dean simply announced that Mr. Alexander’s “views” were not “representative of the views of our law school community” and suggested that they were insensitive to “many students” who feel “vulnerable, marginalized or fearful that they are not welcomed.” He did not raise any specific objections to Mr. Alexander’s arguments, or even reveal what the arguments were.

Instead, he promised more classes, speakers and workshops on racism; more training on racial sensitivity; and a new committee to devise further diversity measures. Stronger racial preferences will most certainly follow. The implication of this bureaucratic outpouring is that the law-school faculty is full of bigots. In reality, Mr. Alexander and his colleagues are among the most tolerant people in human history, and every University of San Diego law student is among the most privileged—simply by virtue of being at an institution with such unfettered intellectual resources. The failure of administrators like Mr. Ferruolo to answer delusional student narcissism with obvious truth is an abdication of their responsibility to lead students toward an adult understanding of reality.

What are university administrators and faculty so afraid of? The Wax-Alexander op-ed confronted important issues responsibly and with solid grounding in social-science research. Each of these administrative capitulations sends a message to professors not to challenge the reigning ideology. The result is an ever more monolithic intellectual environment on American campuses, where behavioral analyses of social problems may not even be whispered. What happens to America if those banned ideas turn out to be true?


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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:01 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Nas wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
I honestly have to agree there are a bunch of hyper sensitive pussies on college campuses and twitter who don't understand what free speech is. On the flip side, if a Nazi arm band douche was attempting to provoke people by whatever means then there should be no issue with knocking him out.


If that guy threw a banana at someone he deserved to get put to sleep by that person. In general I think it's easier to ignore a guy that you know is trying to piss you off.

The guy who was hit with the banana was justified in punching the guy if he chose to do so. Other guy...not so much.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:03 am 
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Free speech is obviously very important but neo-Nazis are obfuscating the issue by calling themselves "free speech advocates." I think they've even talked about it on Stormfront and 4chan (together at last!) about putting out a public face of "free speech advocacy" so that when they're opposed, they can go to "oh, you mean you hate free speech?"

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:15 am 
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http://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2017/09/1 ... -downtown/

Quote:
Man Removes Swastika Armband After Downtown Incident
Written by Jonah Spangenthal-Lee on September 18, 2017 11:14 am
Around 4pm Sunday, SPD received reports of a man wearing a swastika armband instigating fights at 3rd Avenue and Pine Street.
Police were on scene within five minutes and found him on the ground. The man acknowledged he had been struck, but declined to discuss the incident. He left after removing his armband.
No witnesses contacted officers at the scene to make a report about the incident.


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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:31 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Lawyers and soldiers, two classes of people who took oaths to uphold the constitution, are our chief advocates for disregarding it.

Oh, but it is the guy wearing an armband that is scary.

We laughed at Bernstein on election night when he tweeted his sons fear his safety.

What are you talking about? Where did I advocate disregarding the constitution?

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:38 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Free speech is absolutely under assault. One need look no further than this thread for evidence.


leash is correct again.

:lol:

Could you guys and good dolphin be any more melodramatic?

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:50 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
If somebody in a bar threw a banana at you and you broke his face you'd be sitting in jail figuring out how you're going to pay for this fucking mess you've gotten yourself into.

What?

I dont think so. Throwing something at a person is some kind of assault.



If not, please give me the list of things Im allowed to throw at people because that would be fun.;


Joe Mixon was hit in the face by someone and he got arrested for his response.
After he spit on her. She also clearly feared for her life! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:53 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
I think a Nazi throwing a banana can reasonably be expected to attack further.


Yes your honor. I feared for my life. He could have thrown a pineapple next. You never know.


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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:02 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Free speech is absolutely under assault. One need look no further than this thread for evidence.


leash is correct again.

:lol:

Could you guys and good dolphin be any more melodramatic?


Everything's not always a joke.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:05 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Everything's not always a joke.

And everything isn't always as dangerous as you imply either. Let's go back to your original post -

leashyourkids wrote:
Free speech is absolutely under assault. One need look no further than this thread for evidence.

This is a joke. Shakes was really the only one encouraging assaulting Nazis. CH and Nas sort of were, although CH acknowleded the point you were making. Nobody was assaulting free speech here. At worst, there was a couple of posters in here saying things that are bad ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Maybe all tribalism should be banned.

Jews should not be able to huddle at Temple, speaking in an ancient language that non-believers do not understand. Muslims should have the roofs on Mosques opened. Black Power, uh, I mean Black Lives Matter meetings should be conducted in open prairie settings, for all to enjoy - whoops, this already occurs in the middle of the street (check that). One should not be allowed to root for "Da Bears" unless they also root for "Da Pack" just as vehemently. All jelly bean flavors should be consumed at the same rate, leaving no color behind to give to your little sister to enjoy. One should be jailed if they go through a bag of Chex Mix and discard the pretzel pieces!

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:54 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Some insane person ... threw a fucking banana. Now we're justifying murdering him?


https://youtu.be/U90dnUbZMmM

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:32 pm 
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Don Tiny wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Some insane person ... threw a fucking banana. Now we're justifying murdering him?


https://youtu.be/U90dnUbZMmM


Finally!


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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:35 pm 
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Don Tiny wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Some insane person ... threw a fucking banana. Now we're justifying murdering him?


https://youtu.be/U90dnUbZMmM


And RPB says its not funny.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:51 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Everything's not always a joke.

And everything isn't always as dangerous as you imply either. Let's go back to your original post -

leashyourkids wrote:
Free speech is absolutely under assault. One need look no further than this thread for evidence.

This is a joke. Shakes was really the only one encouraging assaulting Nazis. CH and Nas sort of were, although CH acknowleded the point you were making. Nobody was assaulting free speech here. At worst, there was a couple of posters in here saying things that are bad ideas.

The free exchange of ideas often seems to be under assault elsewhere, though. It may seem worse because people are so polarized. It could also be that shaming and informing are practices in our culture which wax and wane and are waxing (in contradictory quarters) now. In any case, violence is an awful short-cut.


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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:01 pm 
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No matter how heartwarmingly righteous it might be, you just can't go around punching people in nazi armbands all willy-nilly.... They could be a prince of England for all you know!

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:01 pm 
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sinicalypse wrote:
No matter how heartwarmingly righteous it might be, you just can't go around punching people in nazi armbands all willy-nilly.... They could be a prince of England for all you know!

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:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:05 pm 
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sinicalypse wrote:
No matter how heartwarmingly righteous it might be, you just can't go around punching people in nazi armbands all willy-nilly.... They could be a prince of England for all you know!

Image



The British are wacky like that. Have any of you ever been to a Tarts and Vicars party?

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:09 pm 
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tommy wrote:
The free exchange of ideas often seems to be under assault elsewhere, though. It may seem worse because people are so polarized. It could also be that shaming and informing are practices in our culture which wax and wane and are waxing (in contradictory quarters) now. In any case, violence is an awful short-cut.

But again, that goes back to my original point that we are all just sitting back and discussing this in an academic way. Which is fine, but you have to realize what's best in theory doesn't usually work out that way in reality. I don't disagree with you and leash and others about what the best response in theory is. Dolphin was flat out wrong for saying I was advocating disregarding the Constitution. It's simply a case of I don't feel bad for the guy and it's an expected response to the behavior he was exhibiting, even in a relatively "civil" society. Where is this utopian society where people don't occasionally get punched for acting like an obscene asshole?

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:12 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Some insane person ... threw a fucking banana. Now we're justifying murdering him?


https://youtu.be/U90dnUbZMmM


And RPB says its not funny.

Never mind him. If I say something's funny, that's the last word.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:13 pm 
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Im all for good clean banana humor


I dont think throwing bananas at black people is funny. Guess I'm a bit of killjoy!


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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:16 pm 
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Haven't read every post but is free speech really under attack if this guy was arrested for punching the nazi? Don't know if he was. To me free speech is still intact if those who want to curb your speech rights by coercion or other means are held accountable before the law. Once/if that stops then there's a problem of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:18 pm 
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The guy wasn't arrested. That's why "free speech advocates" are shook.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:19 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Haven't read every post but is free speech really under attack if this guy was arrested for punching the nazi? Don't know if he was. To me free speech is still intact if those who want to curb your speech rights by coercion or other means are held accountable before the law. Once/if that stops then there's a problem of course.


Right.

As long as Patrick NaziPuncher is arrested and charged, then the system works.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:20 pm 
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I also think some forget the guy that punched him was also not the recipient of the dastardly banana throw nor was he black.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:22 pm 
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tommy wrote:
The free exchange of ideas often seems to be under assault elsewhere, though.

Big-time. When I saw the first press conference by the Virginia governor in the wake of Charlottesville you could see which way the winds were blowing, and now Nazis/"white supremacy" (the #1 buzz-term coming out of Charlottesville IMHO) seem to be used by both sides to justify moves for and (mainly) against "free speech" -- and it's a slippery slope + tricky issue because while no 100%- serious rational person wants to go out there and be like "yeah, I'm a white supremacist who wishes I had what it takes to be a nazi" it's set up that the "line" has been drawn at Nazis/white-supremacy in terms of the semantical-to-cultural battle over what constitutes "free speech" vs "hate speech" and then at what point do you allow people to be "free" to be fucking idiots?

I think that's the crux of the issue at hand here.... At what point do you say that "free" speech/expression/etc isn't allowed because it's "hate" speech/expression/etc... The prevailing opinion (cuz I'm hesitant to say majority, even tho it sure seems that way) is that Nazis/"white supremacy" crosses "the line" and shouldn't be allowed at all (see the post-charlottesville tactic of going after domain names) -- and technically that really worries me going forward.

If you come up with a condition like "white supremacy/nazis/racism/etc shouldn't be allowed to ezist at all" then once you've established that there's an absolute "NO" to something then going forward the slippery slope is what's considered repugnant enough to put the total kibosh on? Anti-LGBT? Misogyny? anti-Feminism? Anti-climate-change? Setting a precedent like "this wrong think will not be allowed on/in our internet, media, culture, etc" then almost begs for the definition of what constitutes "hate" to be expanded going forward, knowing that you already shut down one area you then move onto more areas now that you've established the shut-down protocol....

Call me old fashioned but i think people should technically/theoretically have the right/s to be idiots.... Especially in a day and age where there's so many social consequences for acting the fool in public/social-media/internet, its like "isn't one of the downsides of 'freedom' that people technically have the right to be wrong?" --- it's not like self-avowed nazis / "white supremacists" are going to "get away with it" in this era of social justice....

...but hey all this stuff is above my paygrade so what do I know? Alls i know is that it's not a good time to be a contrarian edgelord, I tell you what!

EDIT: I gotta point out that my phone autocorrected "anti-Feminism" to "anti-Seminism" -- I didn't mean to make any sort of statements calling that out, it's just that my phone often knows better than me and this was one of those times, so when I read what I just posted I was like HOLY SHIT I DIDNT SAY THAT.... But given the current climate it seems like my phone was making quite a poignant point on its own =]

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Last edited by sinicalypse on Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:22 pm 
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If Mr Nazi doesn't feel like pressing charges that's ok too.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:24 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:25 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
I also think some forget the guy that punched him was also not the recipient of the dastardly banana throw nor was he black.

Nah, pretty sure that's been well covered and everyone remembers.

We then moved on to a hypothetical.


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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:34 pm 
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Posts: 80566
Panther pislA wrote:
Maybe all tribalism should be banned.

Jews should not be able to huddle at Temple, speaking in an ancient language that non-believers do not understand. Muslims should have the roofs on Mosques opened. Black Power, uh, I mean Black Lives Matter meetings should be conducted in open prairie settings, for all to enjoy - whoops, this already occurs in the middle of the street (check that). One should not be allowed to root for "Da Bears" unless they also root for "Da Pack" just as vehemently. All jelly bean flavors should be consumed at the same rate, leaving no color behind to give to your little sister to enjoy. One should be jailed if they go through a bag of Chex Mix and discard the pretzel pieces!


I root for the Packers to lose as vehemently as I do the Bears to win

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.


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