It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:37 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 181 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:25 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 76670
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
It's not a straw man argument. Don't pretend that your implication isn't that those guys on List 2 got lucky with "run support". If that's the case how did Rogers make over 200 more starts and actually increase his winning percentage to .484? He must be luckier than Ryan Reynolds!


You seem to misunderstand, and I worded it poorly: The "cut-off" of 2000 was working backward from 2016. So that is Kenny Rogers from 2000-onward. Admittedly it was a different run environment around that time, but he was still decidedly average at best when accounting for league and park effects.



Oh, that's his last 257 starts? Okay. Again, you're not making your argument by trying to compare guys like Carrasco who pitched in some historically low scoring seasons vs. guys who threw in the heart of the steroid era. Chris Archer dreams about having as good a career as Kenny Rogers.

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:46 pm
Posts: 20573
pizza_Place: Giordano's
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
It's not a straw man argument. Don't pretend that your implication isn't that those guys on List 2 got lucky with "run support". If that's the case how did Rogers make over 200 more starts and actually increase his winning percentage to .484? He must be luckier than Ryan Reynolds!


You seem to misunderstand, and I worded it poorly: The "cut-off" of 2000 was working backward from 2016. So that is Kenny Rogers from 2000-onward. Admittedly it was a different run environment around that time, but he was still decidedly average at best when accounting for league and park effects.



Oh, that's his last 257 starts? Okay. Again, you're not making your argument by trying to compare guys like Carrasco who pitched in some historically low scoring seasons vs. guys who threw in the heart of the steroid era. Chris Archer dreams about having as good a career as Kenny Rogers.


That's why I included ERA+, and would have included FIP- if Baseball Reference kept it as a stat (I guess I still could, but I'm lazy). ERA+ is designed to be comparable across multiple and disparate run environments. Kenny Rogers was about average in the juiced era, and "won" 57% of his games. Carlos Carrasco has been much better than average in the more modern run environment, but has a losing record. I'll take the guy outperforming the league in peripheral stats, given the undeniable relationship between run support and W/L%.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:45 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 76670
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
It's not a straw man argument. Don't pretend that your implication isn't that those guys on List 2 got lucky with "run support". If that's the case how did Rogers make over 200 more starts and actually increase his winning percentage to .484? He must be luckier than Ryan Reynolds!


You seem to misunderstand, and I worded it poorly: The "cut-off" of 2000 was working backward from 2016. So that is Kenny Rogers from 2000-onward. Admittedly it was a different run environment around that time, but he was still decidedly average at best when accounting for league and park effects.



Oh, that's his last 257 starts? Okay. Again, you're not making your argument by trying to compare guys like Carrasco who pitched in some historically low scoring seasons vs. guys who threw in the heart of the steroid era. Chris Archer dreams about having as good a career as Kenny Rogers.


That's why I included ERA+, and would have included FIP- if Baseball Reference kept it as a stat (I guess I still could, but I'm lazy). ERA+ is designed to be comparable across multiple and disparate run environments. Kenny Rogers was about average in the juiced era, and "won" 57% of his games. Carlos Carrasco has been much better than average in the more modern run environment, but has a losing record. I'll take the guy outperforming the league in peripheral stats, given the undeniable relationship between run support and W/L%.


I don't think that's true. It may attempt that but it does a piss poor job. All ERA+ is really good for is comparing a guy to the average pitcher in his league over the time he pitched.

Regardless, I understand that current conventional wisdom is that a pitcher is simply a victim of his W/L record. I simply don't believe that to be the case. All those peripherals simply show the capabilities of a guy like Carlos Carrasco, his toolbox if you will. I don't dispute the talent of guys like Quintana or Carrasco. Javier Vazquez was obviously a more talented pitcher than Mark Buehrle. But Buehrle knew how to deploy the talent he had to maximize it.

There's more to pitching a baseball game than just throwing your nasty slider and overpowering fastball. Guys with nasty sliders and overpowering fastballs are likely to have positive peripherals. They're starting with a huge advantage over the Buehrles and Moyers of the world. But a pitcher has to be able to throw the ball where he wants to in a tight spot. Everybody misses sometimes. Even Lamar Hoyt and Greg Maddux.

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:17 am
Posts: 72289
Location: Palatine
pizza_Place: Lou Malnatis
Nas wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Nas wrote:
$200 says that Quintana will finish the season (if healthy) multiple games over .500.


Eeeeee I don't know about that. If they wait until the market heats up at the deadline, that could be more than half of his season's starts made for what could in all likelihood be a historically bad offense.


This is true. It should be considered free money then for some lucky guy/gal.

I'll take the free money. Do we have a deal?

Edit: what's "healthy"? Can we say 25 starts is sufficient?

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:02 pm 
Offline
100000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:06 pm
Posts: 76682
pizza_Place: 773-684-2222
FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Nas wrote:
$200 says that Quintana will finish the season (if healthy) multiple games over .500.


Eeeeee I don't know about that. If they wait until the market heats up at the deadline, that could be more than half of his season's starts made for what could in all likelihood be a historically bad offense.


This is true. It should be considered free money then for some lucky guy/gal.

I'll take the free money. Do we have a deal?


$200 that Quintana will be multiple game over .500 for the season? Of course we have a deal.

_________________
Nas: Blago, who has single handedly destroyed CFMB?

Blago: https://youtube.com/shorts/Lftdxd-YXt8?feature=share

"You can’t love your country only when you win." -President Biden

https://youtu.be/R6e4ruziZBI?si=1G4W1vbh0eGQuHfU


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:17 am
Posts: 72289
Location: Palatine
pizza_Place: Lou Malnatis
Nas wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Nas wrote:
$200 says that Quintana will finish the season (if healthy) multiple games over .500.


Eeeeee I don't know about that. If they wait until the market heats up at the deadline, that could be more than half of his season's starts made for what could in all likelihood be a historically bad offense.


This is true. It should be considered free money then for some lucky guy/gal.

I'll take the free money. Do we have a deal?


$200 that Quintana will be multiple game over .500 for the season? Of course we have a deal.

Ok. Does the 25 start qualifier sound good?

You must be confident to be making this at 0-2. You're saying he's gonna go at least 4 games over .500 from here on out.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:13 pm 
Offline
100000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:06 pm
Posts: 76682
pizza_Place: 773-684-2222
FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Nas wrote:
$200 says that Quintana will finish the season (if healthy) multiple games over .500.


Eeeeee I don't know about that. If they wait until the market heats up at the deadline, that could be more than half of his season's starts made for what could in all likelihood be a historically bad offense.


This is true. It should be considered free money then for some lucky guy/gal.

I'll take the free money. Do we have a deal?


$200 that Quintana will be multiple game over .500 for the season? Of course we have a deal.

Ok. Does the 25 start qualifier sound good?

You must be confident to be making this at 0-2. You're saying he's gonna go at least 4 games over .500 from here on out.


25 starts is perfectly fine.

_________________
Nas: Blago, who has single handedly destroyed CFMB?

Blago: https://youtube.com/shorts/Lftdxd-YXt8?feature=share

"You can’t love your country only when you win." -President Biden

https://youtu.be/R6e4ruziZBI?si=1G4W1vbh0eGQuHfU


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:16 pm 
Offline
100000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:06 pm
Posts: 76682
pizza_Place: 773-684-2222
Of course I am confident. Now I'm invested in him beyond the annual arguments with JORR.

_________________
Nas: Blago, who has single handedly destroyed CFMB?

Blago: https://youtube.com/shorts/Lftdxd-YXt8?feature=share

"You can’t love your country only when you win." -President Biden

https://youtu.be/R6e4ruziZBI?si=1G4W1vbh0eGQuHfU


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:17 am
Posts: 72289
Location: Palatine
pizza_Place: Lou Malnatis
Good deal.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:46 pm
Posts: 20573
pizza_Place: Giordano's
6 IP, 5 H, 1 ER, 2 BB's, 10 K's


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:15 pm
Posts: 16923
He also did an outstanding job telling Avi to hit a home run and the bullpen to get the last 9 outs.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:46 pm
Posts: 20573
pizza_Place: Giordano's
Keyser Soze wrote:
He also did an outstanding job telling Avi to hit a home run and the bullpen to get the last 9 outs.


Pitched the game that was in front of him. Also, he was taken out at 99 pitches. For a May game, with 10 K's, that's about par for the course.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:59 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 76670
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Pitched the game that was in front of him. .


That's right. What other game could he pitch. Pitchers pitch the games they're in. Not theoretical games where they get more "run support".

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:46 pm
Posts: 20573
pizza_Place: Giordano's
7 Innings of 3-hit ball so far tonight. 6 K's and 1 BB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:46 pm
Posts: 20573
pizza_Place: Giordano's
Final line: 8 IP, 4H, 2BB, 7K

Got the run support, will get the win if the bullpen doesn't blow it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 4:11 pm
Posts: 55711
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Final line: 8 IP, 4H, 2BB, 7K

Got the run support, will get the win if the bullpen doesn't blow it.

Amazing how good he pitches when he does not give up 5 runs in the first

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."


Frank Coztansa wrote:
I have MANY years of experience in trying to appreciate steaming piles of dogshit.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:17 am
Posts: 72289
Location: Palatine
pizza_Place: Lou Malnatis
Hopefully he finally realizes his potential and finishes the season 12-11

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:33 pm
Posts: 18863
pizza_Place: World Famous Pizza
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Pitched the game that was in front of him. .


That's right. What other game could he pitch. Pitchers pitch the games they're in. Not theoretical games where they get more "run support".


I know I've asked this before but who gives a shit. Has a guy who strikes out 12 over 8 innings with two earned runs pitched a worse game than his counterpart who pitched 4 innings with seven walks and one earned run?

_________________
Seacrest wrote:
The menstrual cycle changes among Hassidic Jewish women was something as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:13 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 76670
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
SpiralStairs wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Pitched the game that was in front of him. .


That's right. What other game could he pitch. Pitchers pitch the games they're in. Not theoretical games where they get more "run support".


I know I've asked this before but who gives a shit. Has a guy who strikes out 12 over 8 innings with two earned runs pitched a worse game than his counterpart who pitched 4 innings with seven walks and one earned run?


Maybe the umpire working the plate in the game where the guy struck out 12 had a huge strikezone and the other plate umpire was squeezing the shit out of the pitchers. Performance does not exist outside the game in which it occurred.

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:33 pm
Posts: 18863
pizza_Place: World Famous Pizza
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Pitched the game that was in front of him. .


That's right. What other game could he pitch. Pitchers pitch the games they're in. Not theoretical games where they get more "run support".


I know I've asked this before but who gives a shit. Has a guy who strikes out 12 over 8 innings with two earned runs pitched a worse game than his counterpart who pitched 4 innings with seven walks and one earned run?


Maybe the umpire working the plate in the game where the guy struck out 12 had a huge strikezone and the other plate umpire was squeezing the shit out of the pitchers. Performance does not exist outside the game in which it occurred.


In the scenario I was describing the pitchers were opposing one another in the same game.

Still your response implies that things outside a pitcher's control have a decisive impact on the game in which they pitch.

_________________
Seacrest wrote:
The menstrual cycle changes among Hassidic Jewish women was something as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:33 am
Posts: 6189
Location: Limbo
pizza_Place: Positanos on 55th Street
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Maybe the umpire working the plate in the game where the guy struck out 12 had a huge strikezone and the other plate umpire was squeezing the shit out of the pitchers. Performance does not exist outside the game in which it occurred.


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:28 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 76670
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
SpiralStairs wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Pitched the game that was in front of him. .


That's right. What other game could he pitch. Pitchers pitch the games they're in. Not theoretical games where they get more "run support".


I know I've asked this before but who gives a shit. Has a guy who strikes out 12 over 8 innings with two earned runs pitched a worse game than his counterpart who pitched 4 innings with seven walks and one earned run?


Maybe the umpire working the plate in the game where the guy struck out 12 had a huge strikezone and the other plate umpire was squeezing the shit out of the pitchers. Performance does not exist outside the game in which it occurred.


In the scenario I was describing the pitchers were opposing one another in the same game.

Still your response implies that things outside a pitcher's control have a decisive impact on the game in which they pitch.


Things outside every human being's control have a decisive impact on their lives. So what?

But if those guys were pitching in the same game then I'd say the guy who covered twice as many innings while allowing the same ERA pitched better. It's not complicated.

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:33 pm
Posts: 18863
pizza_Place: World Famous Pizza
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Pitched the game that was in front of him. .


That's right. What other game could he pitch. Pitchers pitch the games they're in. Not theoretical games where they get more "run support".


I know I've asked this before but who gives a shit. Has a guy who strikes out 12 over 8 innings with two earned runs pitched a worse game than his counterpart who pitched 4 innings with seven walks and one earned run?


Maybe the umpire working the plate in the game where the guy struck out 12 had a huge strikezone and the other plate umpire was squeezing the shit out of the pitchers. Performance does not exist outside the game in which it occurred.


In the scenario I was describing the pitchers were opposing one another in the same game.

Still your response implies that things outside a pitcher's control have a decisive impact on the game in which they pitch.


Things outside every human being's control have a decisive impact on their lives. So what?

But if those guys were pitching in the same game then I'd say the guy who covered twice as many innings while allowing the same ERA pitched better. It's not complicated.


But he lost.

_________________
Seacrest wrote:
The menstrual cycle changes among Hassidic Jewish women was something as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:29 am
Posts: 64436
Location: Darkside Estates
pizza_Place: A cat got an online degree.
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Performance does not exist outside the game in which it occurred.

Gibberish.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014
bigfan wrote:
Many that is true, but an incomplete statement.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:05 pm
Posts: 68609
pizza_Place: Lina's Pizza
FavreFan wrote:
Hopefully he finally realizes his potential and finishes the season 12-11

:lol:

_________________
The Hawk wrote:
There is not a damned thing wrong with people who are bull shitters.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 5:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:12 pm
Posts: 2860
pizza_Place: maciano's
NAS wrote:
Hopefully he finally realizes his potential and finishes the season 13-11


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:11 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 76670
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
Darkside wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Performance does not exist outside the game in which it occurred.

Gibberish.



What's actually gibberish is the crazy idea that a performance can somehow be transferred to a different game where a pitcher's team scores more runs. If I could move points around like that I'd make the Bears 15-1 every season.

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:14 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 76670
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
SpiralStairs wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

But if those guys were pitching in the same game then I'd say the guy who covered twice as many innings while allowing the same ERA pitched better. It's not complicated.


But he lost.


So? Sometimes you pitch well and lose. Sometimes you get lucky and win. That's why you need a large enough sample.

Just because you go 7 for 17 in the World Series it doesn't make you a great hitter either.

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:55 am
Posts: 6454
pizza_Place: Giordano's
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
SpiralStairs wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

But if those guys were pitching in the same game then I'd say the guy who covered twice as many innings while allowing the same ERA pitched better. It's not complicated.


But he lost.


So? Sometimes you pitch well and lose. Sometimes you get lucky and win. That's why you need a large enough sample.

Just because you go 7 for 17 in the World Series it doesn't make you a great hitter either.



I would say you showed up for a big game. I wouldn't say clutch unless you had some big RBIs or won games because of an RBI.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jose Quintana!
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 8:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:35 pm
Posts: 79868
The 30 Years War was a pretty reasonable time frame to achieve peace, in retrospect.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 181 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group