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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:17 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
But for an entirely different offense. A law and the constitution are not equals.

I know it is entirely correct and has been supported by others who have called you out in this thread. No semantics.

Read the thread again. You equated the law and constitution, not me. I simply responded once you had.

You can't even defend your own argument. Every time I ask you directly you cannot respond. I'll give you one last try I guess, and then we can call it a day if you sidestep again. What is unamerican about the following:

Quote:
Yes, it's wrong to punch someone for saying offensive shit. No, I'm not surprised that someone saying and wearing offensive things and being antagonistic got punched. No, I don't feel bad for the guy.


If you can't answer directly this time don't bother.


Because you have either missed the point or choose to miss the point that he was punched for saying POLITCALLLY offensive shit.

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Last edited by good dolphin on Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:19 pm 
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Weren't wars started on the basis of someone believing something politically offensive?

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:00 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
But for an entirely different offense. A law and the constitution are not equals.

I know it is entirely correct and has been supported by others who have called you out in this thread. No semantics.

Read the thread again. You equated the law and constitution, not me. I simply responded once you had.

You can't even defend your own argument. Every time I ask you directly you cannot respond. I'll give you one last try I guess, and then we can call it a day if you sidestep again. What is unamerican about the following:

Quote:
Yes, it's wrong to punch someone for saying offensive shit. No, I'm not surprised that someone saying and wearing offensive things and being antagonistic got punched. No, I don't feel bad for the guy.


If you can't answer directly this time don't bother.


Because you have either missed the point or choose to miss the point that he was punched for saying POLITCALLLY offensive shit.

If your point is that shouting supremacist rhetoric is solely a political statement and not personal, it's a bad point. Still nothing unamerican from my side here.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:40 pm 
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Take it up with Supreme Court or fuck legal

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:32 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
fuck legal


Not sure FF is the one with that issue .... actually, way the other side of the spectrum.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:41 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Yes, it's wrong to punch someone for saying offensive shit. No, I'm not surprised that someone saying and wearing offensive things and being antagonistic got punched. No, I don't feel bad for the guy.

I don't think anyone feels bad for the guy. Do you think the person who committed the battery should be charged for it?

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:45 pm 
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I'm with FF on this one. You fucking nerds turn everything into a legal discussion. Seriously, get a life or go watch Law & Order. Holy shit.


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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:01 pm 
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Franky T wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Yes, it's wrong to punch someone for saying offensive shit. No, I'm not surprised that someone saying and wearing offensive things and being antagonistic got punched. No, I don't feel bad for the guy.

I don't think anyone feels bad for the guy. Do you think the person who committed the battery should be charged for it?

Sure. I just wouldn't turn him in and aren't outraged that he did what he did.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:52 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Franky T wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Yes, it's wrong to punch someone for saying offensive shit. No, I'm not surprised that someone saying and wearing offensive things and being antagonistic got punched. No, I don't feel bad for the guy.

I don't think anyone feels bad for the guy. Do you think the person who committed the battery should be charged for it?

Sure. I just wouldn't turn him in and aren't outraged that he did what he did.

Thanks.

I could be reading the thread wrong, but I'm not sure anyone is outraged by a Nazi getting knocked the F out.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:20 pm 
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Franky T wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Franky T wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Yes, it's wrong to punch someone for saying offensive shit. No, I'm not surprised that someone saying and wearing offensive things and being antagonistic got punched. No, I don't feel bad for the guy.

I don't think anyone feels bad for the guy. Do you think the person who committed the battery should be charged for it?

Sure. I just wouldn't turn him in and aren't outraged that he did what he did.

Thanks.

I could be reading the thread wrong, but I'm not sure anyone is outraged by a Nazi getting knocked the F out.

I don't really know. I found many of the responses pretty strange. A few people laughed about what happened and were happy, most of us didn't really care. To me, that's about the expected reaction. It seemed to upset many though.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:13 pm 
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Some people like to take something nice, like a neo nazi getting his clock cleaned, and turn it into a brooding thinkpiece about our worsening civil discourse. We are punching out the wrong people.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:16 pm 
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Hockey Gay wrote:
I'm with FF on this one. You fucking nerds turn everything into a legal discussion. Seriously, get a life or go watch Law & Order. Holy shit.

then again, that is kind of the point of a discussion board, and perhaps language itself


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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:19 pm 
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Good twitter essay here: https://twitter.com/studentactivism/sta ... 9602745344

Quote:
Here's a thing about wearing a swastika armband in public—not in a march, not at a demonstration, just walking around for hours in public. It's not just a speech act. It's a test. It's a test to see whether you can get away with it. It's an attempt to shift boundaries. It's an attempt to frighten, to cow, to subdue. It's a challenge: "Are you going to stop me?" It's not "political speech" in the way we typically think of that term. It's not simple advocacy of Nazism. It's street harassment.

So when you ask me what I think of someone getting punched for wearing a swastika on the street? Here's what I think: I think it's the same as a woman pepper-spraying a man for accosting her with sexual insinuations while she walks to the subway. I think it's the same as a gay man punching the guy who threatened him and shamed him for kissing his boyfriend goodbye. I think it's the same as clocking someone you see yelling at an old Jewish lady, telling her she should have been gassed like her mom. We can distinguish coherently between different kinds of speech, and how we respond to them. We do it all the time. If your view is that a woman who pepper-sprays a street harasser is an enemy of the First Amendment and the public good, okay. Make your case. But if you contemplate that scenario, and you're not revulsed, ask yourself why the swastika case is different. And if you come up with an answer to that question that makes sense to you, I'm happy to chat about it. I'd be eager to. Because I actually do believe in the power of discussion to shape and strengthen social norms, and I believe we need more of that right now.

Whew. A lot of people in my mentions seem really confused about a few things, so let me say a little more. First, there's a big difference between legal and moral, and between morally obligatory and morally permissible. I'm not attempting to establish punching Nazis as a principle of correct behavior, or argue that it should be legal. What I'm saying is that wearing a swastika in public is more similar to street harassment than it is to typical political speech. But "If we punch Nazis, what's to stop us from punching catcallers and people who shout homophobic slurs?" is never the argument made. Finally, I find "If we punch people wearing swastikas, what's to stop bigots from punching people wearing pride shirts?" utterly mystifying. First of all, "punching people in pride shirts" is already a thing that happens. It's a thing that happens a lot more than punching Nazis. The idea that homophobic violence rises and falls in tandem with rates of Nazi punching is not as intuitive to me as it is to some of you. Second, even a commitment to the First Amendment doesn't demand that we pretend we don't know the difference between good and evil. "When is violence appropriate in confronting evil?" is a reasonable question. "Isn't confronting evil the same as confronting good?" is not.

Oh, and I guess there is one more thing. I've never punched anyone. I may never punch anyone. I am not encouraging others to punch anyone, or committing to punching anyone. My instinctive response to physical assault is, I've discovered, not to fight, but to place my (large) body between attacker and victim. So no, I'm not a physical coward, thanks for asking, and no, I'm not a fan of gratuitous brutality either. So why the thread? Because I think we have an urgent need for a shared ethics of resistance—active resistance—to brutality. "No violence ever" is not such an ethics, in my view. "Punch all the Nazis" isn't much of an improvement. What would be? Don't know yet.


Salient points throughout, I feel.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:32 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Good twitter essay here: https://twitter.com/studentactivism/sta ... 9602745344

Quote:
Here's a thing about wearing a swastika armband in public—not in a march, not at a demonstration, just walking around for hours in public. It's not just a speech act. It's a test. It's a test to see whether you can get away with it. It's an attempt to shift boundaries. It's an attempt to frighten, to cow, to subdue. It's a challenge: "Are you going to stop me?" It's not "political speech" in the way we typically think of that term. It's not simple advocacy of Nazism. It's street harassment.

So when you ask me what I think of someone getting punched for wearing a swastika on the street? Here's what I think: I think it's the same as a woman pepper-spraying a man for accosting her with sexual insinuations while she walks to the subway. I think it's the same as a gay man punching the guy who threatened him and shamed him for kissing his boyfriend goodbye. I think it's the same as clocking someone you see yelling at an old Jewish lady, telling her she should have been gassed like her mom. We can distinguish coherently between different kinds of speech, and how we respond to them. We do it all the time. If your view is that a woman who pepper-sprays a street harasser is an enemy of the First Amendment and the public good, okay. Make your case. But if you contemplate that scenario, and you're not revulsed, ask yourself why the swastika case is different. And if you come up with an answer to that question that makes sense to you, I'm happy to chat about it. I'd be eager to. Because I actually do believe in the power of discussion to shape and strengthen social norms, and I believe we need more of that right now.

Whew. A lot of people in my mentions seem really confused about a few things, so let me say a little more. First, there's a big difference between legal and moral, and between morally obligatory and morally permissible. I'm not attempting to establish punching Nazis as a principle of correct behavior, or argue that it should be legal. What I'm saying is that wearing a swastika in public is more similar to street harassment than it is to typical political speech. But "If we punch Nazis, what's to stop us from punching catcallers and people who shout homophobic slurs?" is never the argument made. Finally, I find "If we punch people wearing swastikas, what's to stop bigots from punching people wearing pride shirts?" utterly mystifying. First of all, "punching people in pride shirts" is already a thing that happens. It's a thing that happens a lot more than punching Nazis. The idea that homophobic violence rises and falls in tandem with rates of Nazi punching is not as intuitive to me as it is to some of you. Second, even a commitment to the First Amendment doesn't demand that we pretend we don't know the difference between good and evil. "When is violence appropriate in confronting evil?" is a reasonable question. "Isn't confronting evil the same as confronting good?" is not.

Oh, and I guess there is one more thing. I've never punched anyone. I may never punch anyone. I am not encouraging others to punch anyone, or committing to punching anyone. My instinctive response to physical assault is, I've discovered, not to fight, but to place my (large) body between attacker and victim. So no, I'm not a physical coward, thanks for asking, and no, I'm not a fan of gratuitous brutality either. So why the thread? Because I think we have an urgent need for a shared ethics of resistance—active resistance—to brutality. "No violence ever" is not such an ethics, in my view. "Punch all the Nazis" isn't much of an improvement. What would be? Don't know yet.


Salient points throughout, I feel.

The rejoinder is that he's assuming people are logical and won't say, "Well, I thought he was wearing a swastika" or "He practically was wearing one; he had the haircut" or "All ___________are guilty, and shut the fuck up, because you know it's true!"

The harassment angle is interesting, though. Not sure how that shakes out legally, but it's interesting. Of course, if you feel you are immediately threatened, you have a right to defend yourself, but I don't think that was the case here.


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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:49 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Good twitter essay here: https://twitter.com/studentactivism/sta ... 9602745344

Quote:
Here's a thing about wearing a swastika armband in public—not in a march, not at a demonstration, just walking around for hours in public. It's not just a speech act. It's a test. It's a test to see whether you can get away with it. It's an attempt to shift boundaries. It's an attempt to frighten, to cow, to subdue. It's a challenge: "Are you going to stop me?" It's not "political speech" in the way we typically think of that term. It's not simple advocacy of Nazism. It's street harassment.

So when you ask me what I think of someone getting punched for wearing a swastika on the street? Here's what I think: I think it's the same as a woman pepper-spraying a man for accosting her with sexual insinuations while she walks to the subway. I think it's the same as a gay man punching the guy who threatened him and shamed him for kissing his boyfriend goodbye. I think it's the same as clocking someone you see yelling at an old Jewish lady, telling her she should have been gassed like her mom. We can distinguish coherently between different kinds of speech, and how we respond to them. We do it all the time. If your view is that a woman who pepper-sprays a street harasser is an enemy of the First Amendment and the public good, okay. Make your case. But if you contemplate that scenario, and you're not revulsed, ask yourself why the swastika case is different. And if you come up with an answer to that question that makes sense to you, I'm happy to chat about it. I'd be eager to. Because I actually do believe in the power of discussion to shape and strengthen social norms, and I believe we need more of that right now.

Whew. A lot of people in my mentions seem really confused about a few things, so let me say a little more. First, there's a big difference between legal and moral, and between morally obligatory and morally permissible. I'm not attempting to establish punching Nazis as a principle of correct behavior, or argue that it should be legal. What I'm saying is that wearing a swastika in public is more similar to street harassment than it is to typical political speech. But "If we punch Nazis, what's to stop us from punching catcallers and people who shout homophobic slurs?" is never the argument made. Finally, I find "If we punch people wearing swastikas, what's to stop bigots from punching people wearing pride shirts?" utterly mystifying. First of all, "punching people in pride shirts" is already a thing that happens. It's a thing that happens a lot more than punching Nazis. The idea that homophobic violence rises and falls in tandem with rates of Nazi punching is not as intuitive to me as it is to some of you. Second, even a commitment to the First Amendment doesn't demand that we pretend we don't know the difference between good and evil. "When is violence appropriate in confronting evil?" is a reasonable question. "Isn't confronting evil the same as confronting good?" is not.

Oh, and I guess there is one more thing. I've never punched anyone. I may never punch anyone. I am not encouraging others to punch anyone, or committing to punching anyone. My instinctive response to physical assault is, I've discovered, not to fight, but to place my (large) body between attacker and victim. So no, I'm not a physical coward, thanks for asking, and no, I'm not a fan of gratuitous brutality either. So why the thread? Because I think we have an urgent need for a shared ethics of resistance—active resistance—to brutality. "No violence ever" is not such an ethics, in my view. "Punch all the Nazis" isn't much of an improvement. What would be? Don't know yet.

Salient points throughout, I feel.


Especially when the result was

KDdidit wrote:
http://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2017/09/18/man-removes-swastika-armband-after-being-injured-downtown/

Quote:
Man Removes Swastika Armband After Downtown Incident
Written by Jonah Spangenthal-Lee on September 18, 2017 11:14 am
Around 4pm Sunday, SPD received reports of a man wearing a swastika armband instigating fights at 3rd Avenue and Pine Street.
Police were on scene within five minutes and found him on the ground. The man acknowledged he had been struck, but declined to discuss the incident. He left after removing his armband.
No witnesses contacted officers at the scene to make a report about the incident.


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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:02 am 
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It's not "political speech" in the way we typically think of that term.


:roll: "It's okay to advocate for silencing this kind of speech because it's not really other speech that our laws protect." If wearing pussy cat hats was political speech, so is a fucking armband, you nimrod.

This is just a long-winded way of saying "A Nazi armband is different speech permissibly silenced by violence because it has to be different." I disagree. It is not different. It certainly is more offensive and stupid than almost all other political speech I see and hear, but it cannot be treated differently just because. We can't grant ourselves the power to begin making content-based restrictions on the freedoms we all are supposed to be able to enjoy.

Oh, and restricting Nazi political speech by violence is not at all the same as silencing a sexual assaulter/harasser or homophobic threat. The two latter instances are both silencing threats, and would be rightly/permissibly silenced because they are a certain class of unprotected speech (threats), not necessarily the content of them—whether homophobic, anti-Semitic, racist, whatever, a threat is a threat and threats are rightfully unprotected and silenced. Silencing Nazi political speech is content-based, because there are other kinds of political speech that are allowed, most of which people wouldn't seek to silence violently, and most others wouldn't try so damn hard to justify the silencing.


Last edited by Juice's Lecture Notes on Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:27 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:08 am 
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Comparing the display of an offensive symbol with overt threats of imminent violence is the height of shitlib absurdity.


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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:37 am 
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How many times will you find yourself adjacent to swastikas?

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:59 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Oh, and restricting Nazi political speech by violence is not at all the same as silencing a sexual assaulter/harasser or homophobic threat. The two latter instances are both silencing threats, and would be rightly/permissibly silenced because they are a certain class of unprotected speech (threats), not necessarily the content of them—whether homophobic, anti-Semitic, racist, whatever, a threat is a threat and threats are rightfully unprotected and silenced. Silencing Nazi political speech is content-based, because there are other kinds of political speech that are allowed, most of which people wouldn't seek to silence violently, and most others wouldn't try so damn hard to justify the silencing.
So basically you just have to wait for the Nazi speech to be a threat towards a group of people and then it's ok to punch them just like you would a sexual harasser or a homophobic threat. Once the guy says "Let's jail or kill all the Jews!" then it's Nazi bashing time!

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:17 am 
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Telegram Sam wrote:
Some people like to take something nice, like a neo nazi getting his clock cleaned, and turn it into a brooding thinkpiece about our worsening civil discourse. We are punching out the wrong people.

You down with ANTIFA?

I dont like where the left is going lately.


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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:22 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Comparing the display of an offensive symbol with overt threats of imminent violence is the height of shitlib absurdity.


Your attempts to come off as anything other than a bigot dying to use the "n" word are worse tbh.

rogers park bryan wrote:
Telegram Sam wrote:
Some people like to take something nice, like a neo nazi getting his clock cleaned, and turn it into a brooding thinkpiece about our worsening civil discourse. We are punching out the wrong people.

You down with ANTIFA?

I dont like where the left is going lately.


Let's bring back child labor and company towns. The radical left is the worst!


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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:24 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Telegram Sam wrote:
Some people like to take something nice, like a neo nazi getting his clock cleaned, and turn it into a brooding thinkpiece about our worsening civil discourse. We are punching out the wrong people.

You down with ANTIFA?

I dont like where the left is going lately.


It is really okay though because, you know, they are the left. The righteous ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:29 am 
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pittmike wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Telegram Sam wrote:
Some people like to take something nice, like a neo nazi getting his clock cleaned, and turn it into a brooding thinkpiece about our worsening civil discourse. We are punching out the wrong people.

You down with ANTIFA?

I dont like where the left is going lately.


It is really okay though because, you know, they are the left. The righteous ones.

I call em like I see em, pittsburgh michael


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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:34 am 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
pittmike wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Telegram Sam wrote:
Some people like to take something nice, like a neo nazi getting his clock cleaned, and turn it into a brooding thinkpiece about our worsening civil discourse. We are punching out the wrong people.

You down with ANTIFA?

I dont like where the left is going lately.


It is really okay though because, you know, they are the left. The righteous ones.

I call em like I see em, pittsburgh michael


It has already been posted like a hundred times. Nazis are bad. With that said, no one wants to use a common tool that gets used on the board. The old switcharoo. Just change Nazi or armband for any number of things and see if your position on the punch out remains the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
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Telegram Sam wrote:
Some people like to take something nice, like a neo nazi getting his clock cleaned, and turn it into a brooding thinkpiece about our worsening civil discourse. We are punching out the wrong people.


Image

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:28 am 
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the funny thing about the first amendment is that it supersedes any argument about ethics anyone can ever make.

outside of certain parameters which everyone agrees on, it doesn't matter who is doing the speaking.


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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:32 am 
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tommy wrote:
outside of certain parameters which everyone agrees on, it doesn't matter who is doing the speaking.


care to elaborate?

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:34 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
tommy wrote:
outside of certain parameters which everyone agrees on, it doesn't matter who is doing the speaking.


care to elaborate?


I assumed he meant don't yell fire in a theater but I had the same question.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:36 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
tommy wrote:
outside of certain parameters which everyone agrees on, it doesn't matter who is doing the speaking.


care to elaborate?


I assumed he meant don't yell fire in a theater but I had the same question.


That's what I thought as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Seattle Nazi-Puncher
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:39 am 
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It doesn't appear that everyone can agree upon anything.

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