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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:14 pm 
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Drake LaRrieta wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Then wouldn't prejudice, plus a lack of good educational choices and few job opportunities for the uneducated be quite a whole to fill?


The United States government offers free housing, free food, free health care, free schools and even affirmative action and gives preference to minority candidates for colleges. At a certain point there's not much more than can be given to the black community in terms of federal money.


Not everyone is looking for a hand out.

So people want to do things themselves. It affords them a sense of purpose and personal dignity.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:17 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
Drake LaRrieta wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Then wouldn't prejudice, plus a lack of good educational choices and few job opportunities for the uneducated be quite a whole to fill?


The United States government offers free housing, free food, free health care, free schools and even affirmative action and gives preference to minority candidates for colleges. At a certain point there's not much more than can be given to the black community in terms of federal money.


Not everyone is looking for a hand out.

So people want to do things themselves. It affords them a sense of purpose and personal dignity.


That's true, but the idea that all this federal money is subsidizing their communities and yet somehow they are believing that they are completely oppressed is inconsistent.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:22 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:30 pm 
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Drake LaRrieta wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Drake LaRrieta wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Then wouldn't prejudice, plus a lack of good educational choices and few job opportunities for the uneducated be quite a whole to fill?


The United States government offers free housing, free food, free health care, free schools and even affirmative action and gives preference to minority candidates for colleges. At a certain point there's not much more than can be given to the black community in terms of federal money.


Not everyone is looking for a hand out.

So people want to do things themselves. It affords them a sense of purpose and personal dignity.


That's true, but the idea that all this federal money is subsidizing their communities and yet somehow they are believing that they are completely oppressed is inconsistent.


I believe that you are the only one using the word completely.

So, how much oppression of your fellow citizens is enough for you?

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:32 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Another irony of this "controversy" is that a lot of Trump supporters are telling a rich guy to leave the country because that rich guy is too critical of it.

Would it be less ironic if Clinton supporters did the same thing?

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:32 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Another irony of this "controversy" is that a lot of Trump supporters are telling a rich guy to leave the country because that rich guy is too critical of it.


Exactly! Trump and his supporters don't think America is great.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:33 pm 
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formerlyknownas wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Another irony of this "controversy" is that a lot of Trump supporters are telling a rich guy to leave the country because that rich guy is too critical of it.

Would it be less ironic if Clinton supporters did the same thing?

Yes. I despise Hillary but she's not spouting off about how terrible our country is every chance she gets. Like Rick, she has sufficient pride in her country.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:33 pm 
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Drake LaRrieta wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Then wouldn't prejudice, plus a lack of good educational choices and few job opportunities for the uneducated be quite a whole to fill?


The United States government offers free housing, free food, free health care, free schools and even affirmative action and gives preference to minority candidates for colleges. At a certain point there's not much more than can be given to the black community in terms of federal money.


Yikes!

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:51 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
formerlyknownas wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Another irony of this "controversy" is that a lot of Trump supporters are telling a rich guy to leave the country because that rich guy is too critical of it.

Would it be less ironic if Clinton supporters did the same thing?

Yes. I despise Hillary but she's not spouting off about how terrible our country is every chance she gets. Like Rick, she has sufficient pride in her country.

FF: Ah, gotcha.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:55 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Explain what I don't have pride in my country means then.

Well, it's a pretty self explanatory sentence. MANY people wouldn't take pride in something they themselves had no hand in. Also, it just means there are numerous issues that he feels strongly enough about that, in his opinion, bring enough shame to the United States that he doesn't take pride in being from here. We judge other countries by the way their government acts. If other countries did the same to us, it's really not a hard feeling to understand. I know that you believe providing a comfortable life for you and your family cancels out all the shameful things in our country past and present, but others may not agree. And it is very un-American to tell those people to go find somewhere better to live.

Sounds pretty close to dislike or hate to me.

That's because you view the world in binary terms. I don't see an issue with not having pride in one's country, while still liking many facets of that country.

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And it is not un-American. Where are you getting that?

I'm getting that because I have a pretty good understanding of the ideals this country was founded on, and am now questioning if you do. We have a great tradition of dissent, civil disobedience, and social protest in this country(one of the MANY things I like about us!). It is antithetical to the very ideas this country was founded on to tell someone who protests our government's actions to leave the country because they don't love it enough for your taste.

Once again this isn't about dissent or protest. Its about having no pride in this country.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:00 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Once again this isn't about dissent or protest. Its about having no pride in this country.

Well, it's clearly about both. You're just hung up on the semantics while ignoring his actual point.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:03 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Once again this isn't about dissent or protest. Its about having no pride in this country.

Well, it's clearly about both. You're just hung up on the semantics while ignoring his actual point.

You do know this is his patented strategy of debating?

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:14 pm 
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August 29, 2016, 01:47 pm
Kaepernick picked right fight in 'Star-Spangled Banner' beef
By Chuck Hobbs, contributor

Due to God's gift of curiosity, I have a rather extensive knowledge of American history and often write about the subject in my articles and blogs.


But the Colin Kaepernick "Star-Spangled Banner" controversy — one in which the embattled San Francisco 49ers quarterback has been blasted by internet trolls and racists ever since he chose to sit as the national anthem was played before his team's preseason game against the Green Bay Packers — compelled me to do some research, where I have learned the racist origins of that very song.
Consider these facts about Francis Scott Key, author of the national anthem:

• He was a lawyer (I knew that), but also a slaveowner (I did not know that).

• Key used to prosecute abolitionists in court for helping enslaved blacks run north to freedom.

• During closing arguments in a case against Dr. Reuben Crandall, a man charged with sedition for distributing anti-slavery pamphlets, Key was quoted as saying:

"Are you willing, gentlemen, to abandon your country, to permit it to be taken from you, and occupied by the abolitionist, according to whose taste it is to associate and amalgamate with the negro? Or, gentlemen, on the other hand, are there laws in this community to defend you from the immediate abolitionist, who would open upon you the floodgates of such extensive wickedness and mischief?"

• Toward the end of making America for whites only, Key was a member of the American Colonization Society, a group committed to sending free blacks back to Africa.

• Most Americans are indoctrinated from childhood to sing the first verse of "The Star-Spangled Banner"; two of the more famous renditions of the song were sung by the late black singers Marvin Gaye and Whitney Houston.

But Gaye and Houston may have declined had they known about verse three (I sure did not, until recently), which boasts of killing slaves who joined ranks with the British during the War of 1812 to secure their freedom, as follows:

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash'd out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

It is clear, then, that the "free" that Key spoke of was not for black folks.

• Gaye and Houston may also have objected to singing "The Star-Spangled Banner" had they known that President Woodrow Wilson, by executive order, first named "The Star-Spangled Banner" the national anthem in 1916.

Wilson, a Southerner and history professor by trade, was a vile racist who rolled back gains of blacks in the civil service system and lauded the wickedly racist film "The Birth of a Nation," one that made blacks the villains in a post-Reconstruction South and the Ku Klux Klan the heroic figures who saved white women from lustful black men, as "writing history with lightning."

Congress, in 1931, formally enacted Wilson's order into law, which was signed by then-President Herbert Hoover.

So, it is clear that Francis Scott Key, author of "The Star-Spangled Banner" and a man whom I and countless other Americans of all races were brainwashed into believing was a hero, was nothing of the sort; he was a slaveholding racist.

Now, some (not all) of my white friends and followers will try to defend the indefensible by saying that "he was a man of his times." But that is absurd, as there were other white men and women of those same times who were working indefatigably to secure freedom for black people by eradicating slavery. Key, like many white Southerners, chose a side, and his and their side was the morally corrupt one — period.

Some of my black friends and followers, just as brainwashed as I was until recently, may say "but it is tradition," or that "it unites us all," to which I counter, no, figures like Nat Turner, Denmark Vesey, Gabriel Prosser — men who plotted or delivered insurrection against their enslavers — would beg to differ.

So, too, would the great black abolitionist Frederick Douglass, a man whose "What to the Slave is the Fourth of July?" speech is among my favorites and should be required reading for every American history student — period.

So continue your protest, Colin Kaepernick, and by all means continue to force us, the people, to confront many of the ugly truths about our "shared" American heritage and customs.

Hobbs is a lawyer and award-winning freelance writer. Follow him on Twitter @RealChuckHobbs.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:26 pm 
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So, it is clear that Francis Scott Key, author of "The Star-Spangled Banner" and a man whom I and countless other Americans of all races were brainwashed into believing was a hero, was nothing of the sort; he was a slaveholding racist.


Has anyone in the history of the United States thought of Francis Scott Key as a hero?? He wrote some lyrics to the tune of an old irish drinking ballad. He's a trivia answer, not a hero... No one thinks otherwise.


Oh Canada is still the best anthem out there... I don't care what anyone says.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:41 pm 
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maybe he eventually "evolved" which i hear is all the rage.


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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:44 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
Oh Canada is still the best anthem out there... I don't care what anyone says.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:49 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:11 pm 
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when i listen to kap i get the feeling he's got some pretty ridiculous ancient alien things going on in that head of his. all these people praising him are going to look pretty stupid when he's like, "systematic racial oppression is just to distract us from the oncoming Nibiru cataclysm."


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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:17 pm 
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hnd wrote:
when i listen to kap i get the feeling he's got some pretty ridiculous ancient alien things going on in that head of his. all these people praising him are going to look pretty stupid when he's like, "systematic racial oppression is just to distract us from the oncoming Nibiru cataclysm."



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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:46 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Once again this isn't about dissent or protest. Its about having no pride in this country.

Well, it's clearly about both. You're just hung up on the semantics while ignoring his actual point.
If it is both then I wonder why he is not trying to find a country he can be proud of.

There is a big difference between dissent and protest and saying you have no pride in the country. Compare this to what Wade-Lebron-Paul-Terrible basketball player Carmelo did and this.

I just don't understand why someone who thinks his country brings shame both domestically and internationally because of numerous issues who has the economic mobility to move to whatever utopian country he wants wouldn't just do that. You may think it is perfectly logical to choose to live in a country like ours with so many issues that cause such shame but I don't get it. That is unless that you'd find similar shame in just about any country and therefore his "no pride" vote for the United States is stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:49 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Once again this isn't about dissent or protest. Its about having no pride in this country.

Well, it's clearly about both. You're just hung up on the semantics while ignoring his actual point.
If it is both then I wonder why he is not trying to find a country he can be proud of.

There is a big difference between dissent and protest and saying you have no pride in the country. Compare this to what Wade-Lebron-Paul-Terrible basketball player Carmelo did and this.

I just don't understand why someone who thinks his country brings shame both domestically and internationally because of numerous issues who has the economic mobility to move to whatever utopian country he wants wouldn't just do that. You may think it is perfectly logical to choose to live in a country like ours with so many issues that cause such shame but I don't get it. That is unless that you'd find similar shame in just about any country and therefore his "no pride" vote for the United States is stupid.


Have you ever felt ashamed of a family member but still loved them?

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:49 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I just don't understand why someone who thinks his country brings shame both domestically and internationally because of numerous issues who has the economic mobility to move to whatever utopian country he wants wouldn't just do that. You may think it is perfectly logical to choose to live in a country like ours with so many issues that cause such shame but I don't get it. That is unless that you'd find similar shame in just about any country and therefore his "no pride" vote for the United States is stupid.

It's not stupid at all, but yeah you did answer your own question here. Every country has issues. He's trying to use his platform to bring awareness to our issues, and your response is to tell him to move out of the country. That, in and of itself, is one good reason why he should be protesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:52 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Have you ever felt ashamed of a family member but still loved them?
This seems like a strange question to ask here. I would never say that I had "no pride" in that family member.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:53 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Have you ever felt ashamed of a family member but still loved them?
This seems like a strange question to ask here. I would never say that I had "no pride" in that family member.


Really? Do you really think I'm asking for details? Obviously, it's an analogy.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:54 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
It's not stupid at all, but yeah you did answer your own question here. Every country has issues. He's trying to use his platform to bring awareness to our issues, and your response is to tell him to move out of the country. That, in and of itself, is one good reason why he should be protesting.
Who is being the binary one now? I never said all protesting is bad. I've mentioned Wade-Lebron-Paul-Huge Loser Carmelo as great protests that are useful and worthwhile. You seem dead set on thinking I'm saying "ALL protests are bad!" and it seems like I can't change that.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:55 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Have you ever felt ashamed of a family member but still loved them?
This seems like a strange question to ask here. I would never say that I had "no pride" in that family member.


Really? Do you really think I'm asking for details? Obviously, it's an analogy.
I meant I don't think it is a fair analogy. I would never say I had "no pride" in a family member unless I was done with them.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:56 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Have you ever felt ashamed of a family member but still loved them?
This seems like a strange question to ask here. I would never say that I had "no pride" in that family member.


Really? Do you really think I'm asking for details? Obviously, it's an analogy.
I meant I don't think it is a fair analogy. I would never say I had "no pride" in a family member unless I was done with them.


You must have good genetics. I can think of like five off the top of my head.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:56 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
It's not stupid at all, but yeah you did answer your own question here. Every country has issues. He's trying to use his platform to bring awareness to our issues, and your response is to tell him to move out of the country. That, in and of itself, is one good reason why he should be protesting.
Who is being the binary one now? I never said all protesting is bad. I've mentioned Wade-Lebron-Paul-Huge Loser Carmelo as great protests that are useful and worthwhile. You seem dead set on thinking I'm saying "ALL protests are bad!" and it seems like I can't change that.

I never said you said all protests were bad. My post you just quoted has nothing to do with being binary, and it's an accurate recap of this thread. You didn't like how Kaepernick expressed himself, and instead of debating the merits of what he had to say, you suggested he should find somewhere better to live. It was a ridiculous response that's only real purpose would be to dismiss the issue he is trying to bring light to.

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
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Let me put it a different way: do you think Sox fans should jump ship right now?

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 Post subject: Re: Kaepernick
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:00 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
You must have good genetics. I can think of like five off the top of my head.
I don't think that having "no pride" in something is the casual complaint that you and others seem to think it is. I would think if I told a family member I had "no pride" in them that they would be pretty devastated. I don't think they'd say "Well, I need to make a small adjustment".

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!


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