Chicago Fanatics Message Board :: View topic - Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Indiana still hasn't proven they can be elite without Knight. And no, Branch McCracken doesn't count.

The old Millennial "If it happened before I was born, it didn't happen" philosophy!

Uh, JORR, the players that these schools are trying to recruit.... what generation do you suppose they are?

Are you making the argument that the current coach is all that matters? I'm not saying that isn't important, by the way. A guy like Izzo can establish a program by staying and being consistent over a long period, but that doesn't happen when a guy uses three good seasons at Dayton or Xavier a stepping stone to Ohio State or Indiana.

No, I'm saying 2005 was 12 years ago. We're getting to the point where Illinois hasn't been a respectable program since potential recruits have been watching and playing basketball. That matters a hell of a lot more than being a decent program in the 1980's does if we are ranking programs.

FavreFan wrote:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

FavreFan wrote:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

Boilermaker Rick wrote:

Indiana still hasn't proven they can be elite without Knight. And no, Branch McCracken doesn't count.

The old Millennial "If it happened before I was born, it didn't happen" philosophy!

Uh, JORR, the players that these schools are trying to recruit.... what generation do you suppose they are?

Right, but when we talk about a program there has to be certain things built in that put it on a level. Anyone can have a shitty coach. They get fired. For example, Purdue can have a great coach and go on great little runs and they have. They're good this season. But they'll always have a disadvantage in that a good coach at Indiana is almost always going to be able to pick the top kids in the state and leave Purdue with seconds. Sometimes the secondary guys turn out better. Once in awhile Purdue will be able to beat out Indiana and get the best guy. But overall Indiana has a built in advantage that Purdue doesn't and several bad Crean years doesn't erase that.

That's a disadvantage Illinois doesn't have. A top coach should be able to get more than enough of the top players in the state. But it has other disadvantages. In spite of the history, football is more important at Illinois. That's not the case with Indiana.

If Illinois is a top program why does it have such a hard time getting a good coach? Iirc, the VCU guy picked VCU over Illinois. C'mon.

Saw last night Hoiberg may be talking to Illinois. Seems like a crazy rumor.

We knew Illinois wasn't a football school, but now it doesn't feel like a basketball school, either. We're going to have to invent a new sport for them.

JORR, you are out of your mind. I could name 50 schools that are more coveted than Illinois, and I could name another 15 mid-majors that are probably more coveted. I don't even know who the hell is in the Big 10 anymore, but Illinois would likely be 7th at best after only accounting for the Big 10 teams I remember:

Michigan
Michigan St.
Indiana
Wisconsin
Ohio St.
Purdue

Are all more prestigious positions than Illinois. Illinois is on par with Minnesota or Iowa. They caught lightning in a bottle in '89 and '05 (which were recruits obtained by a coach who was merely using Illinois as a stepping stone to go to Kansas and who was replacing a coach who used Kansas as a stepping stone to go to North Carolina). You're nuts, my old friend. Illinois is not a destination in any sport for a well-known coach.

I would say that Michigan, Illinois, Iowa, Purdue, Wisconsin, and Ohio State are all about equal in terms of their basketball programs. But in terms of a "coveted" job for a head coach, Illinois should be the best job based on several built-in advantages. Right off the bat is power within the athletic department. At every place above except Purdue and Illinois, football is just overwhelmingly the king. (It probably would be king at Illinois too if they ever had a hope of consistently competing with Michigan and Ohio State. Those other schools have had just enough success to convince themselves that they can.) And for a coach who is recruiting, Purdue is always going to have to contend with Indiana in a basketball crazy state.

Newper is probably right about Maryland, but they did sell out their basketball legacy to chase football money in the Big 10. At one time Left Driesell was trying to fashion Maryland as the "UCLA of the East".

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

There's a lot of "should" with Illinois that ultimately end up meaning nothing. Illinois needs more "is." Jose Quintana should be a winning pitcher too.

leashyourkids wrote:

They're not "more coveted" though. At every one of those schools above except for Indiana and Purdue, basketball is an afterthought to football. If you really think Illinois is on par with Minnesota, we can't really have this discussion.

Indiana is the top basketball program in the Big 10, hands down. Maybe Michigan State has achieved a level that is higher than the others I'll mention and I'm not sure what to think about Maryland now that they're in a football conference.

I would say that Michigan, Illinois, Iowa, Purdue, Wisconsin, and Ohio State are all about equal in terms of their basketball programs. But in terms of a "coveted" job for a head coach, Illinois should be the best job based on several built-in advantages. Right off the bat is power within the athletic department. At every place above except Purdue and Illinois, football is just overwhelmingly the king. (It probably would be king at Illinois too if they ever had a hope of consistently competing with Michigan and Ohio State. Those other schools have had just enough success to convince themselves that they can.) And for a coach who is recruiting, Purdue is always going to have to contend with Indiana in a basketball crazy state.

Newper is probably right about Maryland, but they did sell out their basketball legacy to chase football money in the Big 10. At one time Left Driesell was trying to fashion Maryland as the "UCLA of the East".

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

leashyourkids wrote:

Dan Dakich told a story about Bob Knight comparing different basketball programs and concluding that Illinois should be the best job in the Big Ten.

Big Chicagoan wrote:

Keatts to NC State

So does that mean Illinois now needs to go to a back up plan to their back up plan?

http://collegebasketball.ap.org/top-100

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

http://collegebasketball.ap.org/top-100

Nobody ever believes us JORR.

I don't know, I'd say any program outside the top 7 or 8 is a giant blob of good but not great.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

http://collegebasketball.ap.org/top-100

Nobody ever believes us JORR.

What do you want us to believe you on Doc?

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

http://collegebasketball.ap.org/top-100

Nobody ever believes us JORR.

Author:	Joe Orr Road Rod [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
FavreFan wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: FavreFan wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Boilermaker Rick wrote: Indiana still hasn't proven they can be elite without Knight. And no, Branch McCracken doesn't count. The old Millennial "If it happened before I was born, it didn't happen" philosophy! Uh, JORR, the players that these schools are trying to recruit.... what generation do you suppose they are? Are you making the argument that the current coach is all that matters? I'm not saying that isn't important, by the way. A guy like Izzo can establish a program by staying and being consistent over a long period, but that doesn't happen when a guy uses three good seasons at Dayton or Xavier a stepping stone to Ohio State or Indiana. No, I'm saying 2005 was 12 years ago. We're getting to the point where Illinois hasn't been a respectable program since potential recruits have been watching and playing basketball. That matters a hell of a lot more than being a decent program in the 1980's does if we are ranking programs. Right, but when we talk about a program there has to be certain things built in that put it on a level. Anyone can have a shitty coach. They get fired. For example, Purdue can have a great coach and go on great little runs and they have. They're good this season. But they'll always have a disadvantage in that a good coach at Indiana is almost always going to be able to pick the top kids in the state and leave Purdue with seconds. Sometimes the secondary guys turn out better. Once in awhile Purdue will be able to beat out Indiana and get the best guy. But overall Indiana has a built in advantage that Purdue doesn't and several bad Crean years doesn't erase that. That's a disadvantage Illinois doesn't have. A top coach should be able to get more than enough of the top players in the state. But it has other disadvantages. In spite of the history, football is more important at Illinois. That's not the case with Indiana.

Author:	FavreFan [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: FavreFan wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: FavreFan wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Boilermaker Rick wrote: Indiana still hasn't proven they can be elite without Knight. And no, Branch McCracken doesn't count. The old Millennial "If it happened before I was born, it didn't happen" philosophy! Uh, JORR, the players that these schools are trying to recruit.... what generation do you suppose they are? Are you making the argument that the current coach is all that matters? I'm not saying that isn't important, by the way. A guy like Izzo can establish a program by staying and being consistent over a long period, but that doesn't happen when a guy uses three good seasons at Dayton or Xavier a stepping stone to Ohio State or Indiana. No, I'm saying 2005 was 12 years ago. We're getting to the point where Illinois hasn't been a respectable program since potential recruits have been watching and playing basketball. That matters a hell of a lot more than being a decent program in the 1980's does if we are ranking programs. Right, but when we talk about a program there has to be certain things built in that put it on a level. Anyone can have a shitty coach. They get fired. For example, Purdue can have a great coach and go on great little runs and they have. They're good this season. But they'll always have a disadvantage in that a good coach at Indiana is almost always going to be able to pick the top kids in the state and leave Purdue with seconds. Sometimes the secondary guys turn out better. Once in awhile Purdue will be able to beat out Indiana and get the best guy. But overall Indiana has a built in advantage that Purdue doesn't and several bad Crean years doesn't erase that. That's a disadvantage Illinois doesn't have. A top coach should be able to get more than enough of the top players in the state. But it has other disadvantages. In spite of the history, football is more important at Illinois. That's not the case with Indiana. If Illinois is a top program why does it have such a hard time getting a good coach? Iirc, the VCU guy picked VCU over Illinois. C'mon.

Author:	Hawkeye Vince [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
Saw last night Hoiberg may be talking to Illinois. Seems like a crazy rumor.

Author:	Joe Orr Road Rod [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
FavreFan wrote: If Illinois is a top program why does it have such a hard time getting a good coach? Iirc, the VCU guy picked VCU over Illinois. C'mon. What does a "good coach" mean? Weber certainly had a good record. Groce has been a disappointment, but he was a hot guy at the time. If they got that Miller guy and were mediocre for the next four years would you say they couldn't get a coach? Shaka Smart is being led around by his wife. It's not just Illinois that he snubbed. I'm pretty sure he could have had the UCLA job among others. Personally, I think it was a mistake to fire Weber, but there are alumni politics involved. Some people think Illinois should be competing with Kentucky and Kansas. To me that's unrealistic. Weber averaging 22 wins a year wasn't enough so we had to go out to find some guy to turn us into Northwestern.

Author:	Big Chicagoan [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
Last Illinois AD was cheap and a dick. No one wanted to take a job for that. Guenther was also cheap and wouldn't pay to keep his coaches.

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Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois? http://chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=105435	Page 5 of 5

Author:	Matches Malone [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
Hawkeye Vince wrote: Saw last night Hoiberg may be talking to Illinois. Seems like a crazy rumor. The college game is probably where he belongs.

Author:	RFDC [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
Hoiberg would be a great hire for Illinois, and maybe they could take Gar/Pax to be on staff. But the Bulls could not get that lucky.

Author:	leashyourkids [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
JORR, you are out of your mind. I could name 50 schools that are more coveted than Illinois, and I could name another 15 mid-majors that are probably more coveted. I don't even know who the hell is in the Big 10 anymore, but Illinois would likely be 7th at best after only accounting for the Big 10 teams I remember: Michigan Michigan St. Indiana Wisconsin Ohio St. Purdue Are all more prestigious positions than Illinois. Illinois is on par with Minnesota or Iowa. They caught lightning in a bottle in '89 and '05 (which were recruits obtained by a coach who was merely using Illinois as a stepping stone to go to Kansas and who was replacing a coach who used Kansas as a stepping stone to go to North Carolina). You're nuts, my old friend. Illinois is not a destination in any sport for a well-known coach.

Author:	newper [ Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
You could arguably throw Maryland in there ahead of Illinois at this point. Final four back to back years in 01/02, and a lot more recent success than Illinois.

Author:	T-Bone [ Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
Curious Hair wrote: We knew Illinois wasn't a football school, but now it doesn't feel like a basketball school, either. We're going to have to invent a new sport for them. It's become on of the top golf schools in the nation the last ten years!

Author:	Joe Orr Road Rod [ Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
leashyourkids wrote: JORR, you are out of your mind. I could name 50 schools that are more coveted than Illinois, and I could name another 15 mid-majors that are probably more coveted. I don't even know who the hell is in the Big 10 anymore, but Illinois would likely be 7th at best after only accounting for the Big 10 teams I remember: Michigan Michigan St. Indiana Wisconsin Ohio St. Purdue Are all more prestigious positions than Illinois. Illinois is on par with Minnesota or Iowa. They caught lightning in a bottle in '89 and '05 (which were recruits obtained by a coach who was merely using Illinois as a stepping stone to go to Kansas and who was replacing a coach who used Kansas as a stepping stone to go to North Carolina). You're nuts, my old friend. Illinois is not a destination in any sport for a well-known coach. They're not "more coveted" though. At every one of those schools above except for Indiana and Purdue, basketball is an afterthought to football. If you really think Illinois is on par with Minnesota, we can't really have this discussion. Indiana is the top basketball program in the Big 10, hands down. Maybe Michigan State has achieved a level that is higher than the others I'll mention and I'm not sure what to think about Maryland now that they're in a football conference. I would say that Michigan, Illinois, Iowa, Purdue, Wisconsin, and Ohio State are all about equal in terms of their basketball programs. But in terms of a "coveted" job for a head coach, Illinois should be the best job based on several built-in advantages. Right off the bat is power within the athletic department. At every place above except Purdue and Illinois, football is just overwhelmingly the king. (It probably would be king at Illinois too if they ever had a hope of consistently competing with Michigan and Ohio State. Those other schools have had just enough success to convince themselves that they can.) And for a coach who is recruiting, Purdue is always going to have to contend with Indiana in a basketball crazy state. Newper is probably right about Maryland, but they did sell out their basketball legacy to chase football money in the Big 10. At one time Left Driesell was trying to fashion Maryland as the "UCLA of the East".

Author:	KDdidit [ Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: I would say that Michigan, Illinois, Iowa, Purdue, Wisconsin, and Ohio State are all about equal in terms of their basketball programs. But in terms of a "coveted" job for a head coach, Illinois should be the best job based on several built-in advantages. Right off the bat is power within the athletic department. At every place above except Purdue and Illinois, football is just overwhelmingly the king. (It probably would be king at Illinois too if they ever had a hope of consistently competing with Michigan and Ohio State. Those other schools have had just enough success to convince themselves that they can.) And for a coach who is recruiting, Purdue is always going to have to contend with Indiana in a basketball crazy state. Newper is probably right about Maryland, but they did sell out their basketball legacy to chase football money in the Big 10. At one time Left Driesell was trying to fashion Maryland as the "UCLA of the East". There's a lot of "should" with Illinois that ultimately end up meaning nothing. Illinois needs more "is." Jose Quintana should be a winning pitcher too.

Author:	Matches Malone [ Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
Rod Strickland?

Author:	WaitingforRuffcorn [ Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: leashyourkids wrote: JORR, you are out of your mind. I could name 50 schools that are more coveted than Illinois, and I could name another 15 mid-majors that are probably more coveted. I don't even know who the hell is in the Big 10 anymore, but Illinois would likely be 7th at best after only accounting for the Big 10 teams I remember: Michigan Michigan St. Indiana Wisconsin Ohio St. Purdue Are all more prestigious positions than Illinois. Illinois is on par with Minnesota or Iowa. They caught lightning in a bottle in '89 and '05 (which were recruits obtained by a coach who was merely using Illinois as a stepping stone to go to Kansas and who was replacing a coach who used Kansas as a stepping stone to go to North Carolina). You're nuts, my old friend. Illinois is not a destination in any sport for a well-known coach. They're not "more coveted" though. At every one of those schools above except for Indiana and Purdue, basketball is an afterthought to football. If you really think Illinois is on par with Minnesota, we can't really have this discussion. Indiana is the top basketball program in the Big 10, hands down. Maybe Michigan State has achieved a level that is higher than the others I'll mention and I'm not sure what to think about Maryland now that they're in a football conference. I would say that Michigan, Illinois, Iowa, Purdue, Wisconsin, and Ohio State are all about equal in terms of their basketball programs. But in terms of a "coveted" job for a head coach, Illinois should be the best job based on several built-in advantages. Right off the bat is power within the athletic department. At every place above except Purdue and Illinois, football is just overwhelmingly the king. (It probably would be king at Illinois too if they ever had a hope of consistently competing with Michigan and Ohio State. Those other schools have had just enough success to convince themselves that they can.) And for a coach who is recruiting, Purdue is always going to have to contend with Indiana in a basketball crazy state. Newper is probably right about Maryland, but they did sell out their basketball legacy to chase football money in the Big 10. At one time Left Driesell was trying to fashion Maryland as the "UCLA of the East". Dan Dakich told a story about Bob Knight comparing different basketball programs and concluding that Illinois should be the best job in the Big Ten.

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Author:	formerlyknownas [ Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: leashyourkids wrote: JORR, you are out of your mind. I could name 50 schools that are more coveted than Illinois, and I could name another 15 mid-majors that are probably more coveted. I don't even know who the hell is in the Big 10 anymore, but Illinois would likely be 7th at best after only accounting for the Big 10 teams I remember: Michigan Michigan St. Indiana Wisconsin Ohio St. Purdue Are all more prestigious positions than Illinois. Illinois is on par with Minnesota or Iowa. They caught lightning in a bottle in '89 and '05 (which were recruits obtained by a coach who was merely using Illinois as a stepping stone to go to Kansas and who was replacing a coach who used Kansas as a stepping stone to go to North Carolina). You're nuts, my old friend. Illinois is not a destination in any sport for a well-known coach. They're not "more coveted" though. At every one of those schools above except for Indiana and Purdue, basketball is an afterthought to football. If you really think Illinois is on par with Minnesota, we can't really have this discussion. Indiana is the top basketball program in the Big 10, hands down. Maybe Michigan State has achieved a level that is higher than the others I'll mention and I'm not sure what to think about Maryland now that they're in a football conference. I would say that Michigan, Illinois, Iowa, Purdue, Wisconsin, and Ohio State are all about equal in terms of their basketball programs. But in terms of a "coveted" job for a head coach, Illinois should be the best job based on several built-in advantages. Right off the bat is power within the athletic department. At every place above except Purdue and Illinois, football is just overwhelmingly the king. (It probably would be king at Illinois too if they ever had a hope of consistently competing with Michigan and Ohio State. Those other schools have had just enough success to convince themselves that they can.) And for a coach who is recruiting, Purdue is always going to have to contend with Indiana in a basketball crazy state. Newper is probably right about Maryland, but they did sell out their basketball legacy to chase football money in the Big 10. At one time Left Driesell was trying to fashion Maryland as the "UCLA of the East". Dan Dakich told a story about Bob Knight comparing different basketball programs and concluding that Illinois should be the best job in the Big Ten. Knight basically says that in Feinstein's book from the late 80s.......

Author:	Hank Scorpio [ Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
I'm an IU guy and I DO believe they are the premiere destination in the Big Ten for basketball. Eventually you have to push for more than a Sweet 16 every other year. You have to be a final four team more often than every 15 years. Bobby Knight isn't walking thru that door. In his presser, the AD at Indiana seemed to think that anyone, anywhere was a possibility for the job. I'd love to think that Brad Stephens or Donovan are seriously thinking about it but that is absurd in reality. You can try to poach a guy from another high level program or you are stuck getting the flavor of the month mid major guy.

Author:	Big Chicagoan [ Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
Keatts to NC State

Author:	RFDC [ Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
Big Chicagoan wrote: Keatts to NC State So does that mean Illinois now needs to go to a back up plan to their back up plan?

Author:	Peoria Matt [ Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
This is starting to seem like Lovie's search for a Bears O.C.

Author:	Brick [ Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
RFDC wrote: Big Chicagoan wrote: Keatts to NC State So does that mean Illinois now needs to go to a back up plan to their back up plan? Hello Tom Crean!

Author:	T-Bone [ Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
The more I read about this Brad Underwood guy, the more I think that they made a solid choice. Time will tell of course but sounds like he likes running an up tempo offense and can flat out coach guys up. If he can keep the incoming recruits he may have something to build on. It's not the big or sexy name but I am giving this guy my support and let's be honest it can't be much worse than the last couple of seasons. He'll have a young roster, but if he can actually keep them in games even if they lose, that would be an improvement.

Author:	Joe Orr Road Rod [ Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
http://collegebasketball.ap.org/top-100

Author:	Dr. Kenneth Noisewater [ Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: http://collegebasketball.ap.org/top-100 Nobody ever believes us JORR.

Author:	RFDC [ Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: http://collegebasketball.ap.org/top-100 Nobody ever believes us JORR. What do you want us to believe you on Doc?

Author:	KDdidit [ Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
I don't know, I'd say any program outside the top 7 or 8 is a giant blob of good but not great.

Author:	shakes [ Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Who Will Be the Next Coach at Illinois?
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: http://collegebasketball.ap.org/top-100 Nobody ever believes us JORR. I believed you guys. Illinois is definitely one of the top 15 basketball jobs in the country. Big time conference? Check Basketball #1 sport on campus, football an afterthought? Check In state access to the top high school talent base in the USA? Check History of winning? Check (no titles, but plenty of deep runs in the tournament) Name 15 other schools that can say all that? As far as programs I would put ahead of Illinois, here's my list off the top of my head... Kentucky Kansas UNC Duke Louisville UCLA Arizona Michigan State Syracuse Indiana Villanova That's really about it. But, the best part of that link is watching DePaul and San Francisco's race to the bottom. Currently at 48 and 49, I would love to see a graph of how far they've fallen in the past 30 years. Both were top 10 at one point, DePaul not that long ago.