Didn't I lose this discussion because shakes pointed out EFG and TS?

Hypothetical Zion Williamson!

shakes didn't debunk anything about his teammates. As of now, Duke is projected to have 3 top 10 picks including Zion. Marques Bolden was the #1 center in his class and 14 overall. Tre Jones was the #3 pg in his class and 15 overall. Javin DeLaurier, who is a role player, was the 11th best pf and 39th overall. Duke is an all star team.

I don't think you are getting the point of posting those. I wasn't saying they were better than Zion. I was pointing out the flaw in shakes argument. Then all of a sudden usage rate became part of the discussion even and it was retroactively ridiculous for me to not have known that. Then I pointed out Doug McDermott and then it was like "Well, McDermott was good in college" when I've already said Zion is one of the best college players of all time and yet I'm being ridiculous pointing out that Zion didn't put up 30 and 10 rebounds.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Brick going full genius now.

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His teammates don't fit his game at all. It's been a major talking point since the UCF game if you hadn't noticed.

https://www.theringer.com/march-madness ... -blueprint


Anyway, I think the rest of your post is mostly nonsense and I think you know it is. Usage rate didn't "all of a sudden" come into play. It was such a given when comparing all time great players that it shouldn't have been needed to be said. But then Obtuse Rick comes in with a fuckin' Steve Scheffler comp and the obvious needs to be pointed out

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

PSA for the Board: This is how you argue with and defeat Brick. Teamwork. You do your work, make your points and then you tag out for the next guy. Only way to defeat the marathoner.

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Way too early in the day to declare victory.

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Yeah, way too early.

You either decide your goal is to beat Rick with logic and good arguments and declare your own personal "W" when you believe you have won, or you decide you're going to beat him in a marathon and buy a whole lot of cocaine.

Your call.

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Duke is not a perfect team. They have flaws. Take Zion off Duke and tell me how many teams are clearly more talented.


This is unfair. shakes made an argument only citing ts% and efg%. That was his argument. I responded to the flaw in only using those two statistics and you are acting like I made the case that those two statistics alone don't tell the whole story using examples.

As I said, I'm all for counting everything and I'll take the sophomore season of Big Dog over the freshman season of Zion by a good margin. Zion is still great though. He just didn't put up as good of a season as any college basketball player in history.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Do me a favor. I want to make sure you are capable. Can you reply to this post by just typing out the words "Doug McDermott". You don't have to say anything else. I'm just thinking you may be physically incapable of doing it.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Several teams would still be more talented considering Duke didn't even separate themselves from the pack WITH Zion. And again, ignoring that his "all star" teammates don't provide him any spacing is a bad way to go about things. It's pretty clear from watching the games the players don't fit together quite right. It's similar to how Ben Simmons numbers explode when Embiid doesn't play. Same thing would happen to Zion if you surrounded him with shooters and/or he had other less ball dominant players to share the court with.


It's not unfair at all. As I said, it's a given that high usage rate is a necessity when talking about the best players ever. Not sure how else to explain that or make it more clear.

Agree to disagree if you think all available data points to Big Dog having a better sophomore season than Zion's one season "by a good margin". It makes me question if you know how to interpret the data available and how important efficiency and defense are.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

What are those several teams? Duke was the #1 overall seed. They are the overwhelming favorite to win it all for a tournament where you lose once and you are done.

Though, now it seems like you are arguing that playing with those same players that aren't that good are HURTING his numbers.
Well then, I guess it's a good thing I wasn't arguing that Tacko Fall or Steve Scheffler are among the best players ever then.

Once again, I'm more than willing to hear a complete argument that doesn't put Big Dog's sophomore year ahead of Zion. shakes has already tapped out with pointing out two statistics that are pretty close to the same thing anyways.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

dude, every basketball post you have on this site is on the wrong side of history. Your opinion doesn't mean shit and in fact, usually means the opposite.



#VICTORYLAP

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He was more dominant in several categories. We covered efficiency, SPG, and BPG, which already covers a lot of ground. Zion has a better Ast/TO ratio, suggesting better playmaking ability. We also need to keep in mind that Big Dog played 5 more MPG, which is significant. That skews all the Per Game numbers we are posting towards Zion. I'm assuming you understand why.

We don't have advanced metrics from 1994 unfortunately, but Zion is off the fucking charts on his advanced metrics. They would have blown whatever Big Dog did out of the water. Here's a small sample of Zion's advanced metrics:

WS/48: .346, Current NBA Leader: Giannis at .290
PER: 41.0, Current NBA Leader: Giannis 30.5
BPM: 20.3, Current NBA Leader: Harden, 11.2


Statistically, there isn't much of a case that Big Dog's sophomore season was better than Zion's by a good margin. Indeed, the opposite is true when looking at all the available data.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Yup. This one's over.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

happy to share it with you. I carried the ball into enemy territory and then you took over and high stepped your way to the end zone untouched.

#TEAMWEED

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shakes is the (((best))).

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I don't think the mpg argument helps you. If his teammates aren't as great as I think they are why isn't he playing more? I understand one game he only played 1 minute before his shoe broke but that doesn't account for the entire difference there. Also, playing a huge minute load can almost give you an advantage in the per 40 minute stats too.

Well yeah, Zion only shoots 13 times a game. He's going to have some pretty great advanced stats. RJ Barrett shoots far more than Zion. You'd think the greatest college player of all time, playing with a flawed team like he has, would get the most shots on the team.


Zion was far more efficient, but we don't set the GOAT discussion at the most efficient, or our guy MJ is going to struggle too.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Oh well then carry on.

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He was more efficient and flat out more dominant in pretty much EVERY SINGLE CATEGORY except for total ppg and rpg.

You simply have no argument that Big Dog was better and this was probably the weakest "rebuttal" I've ever seen you type out. You basically just said "Yeah, but" to everything.

Take the L my friend. You're getting worse at this the further it goes.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Flat out more dominant? You have a low bar for dominance. This is becoming like the Jordan vs. Lebron debate. I mean, we are talking about a 2.1 vs 1.9 assists number being dominant for a guy who shot 9 more times a game.

Zion does have the secondary statistics advantage though.

Half of your argument is "I WON!" so I won't exactly take this part seriously.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Yes, when a player is beating another player in every single category except two, and those two are easily explained away by circumstance, that’s definitely and definitively more dominant.

Your last part is bullshit obviously since I explained my entire thought process and you replied “yeah, but” to every part without every showing how I was wrong.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I don't know if you added the blue afterwards or not but I didn't see them initially.
The back and forth here is amazing. You argued early that it was a flawed team. Now it's so good that it doesn't even have to rely on the best college basketball player ever?
The point is that when you aren't even the first offensive option on your own team you are going to be far more efficient than a guy who was carrying the load for the whole team on offense. Do you really think Zion would be as efficient as he is if he was shooting 9 more times a game?

This gets me back to the fact that Zion plays with an all star team. In college, where the talent is far more spread out, having 3 top ten draft picks in the next draft puts you at a huge advantage. Most of the players he plays with will be on NBA teams at some point.

Zion could have played for any team in the country. He doesn't get a pass for choosing to play for Coach K and with Barrett. But even if he did, it also helps explains why he has a historically great efficiency level on offense. He's not even the #1 option!

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

You are embarrassing yourself. You should quit now.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

We need to stop this fight before BRick does some permanent damage to these guys.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

If you need an explanation for how ball dominant non shooters and floor spacing shooters affect a guy like Zion differently, just ask and I'll help you out. If you do understand the difference, you know this is a comically bad response

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I'm beginning to think Seacrest was right about you

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

uhm, MJ is the league's all time leader in PER and he's 5th in TS% His EFG% is 51% which is near the top when compared to other guards with similar usage. The struggle is not real.


sorry FF, didn't mean to jump in, but this statement was too stupid to go unchecked.


#DOUGIEMCBUCKETS

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Just stop. I can break down the flaws of Duke better than you. In fact, some of them are because of Zion himself who is still limited in certain aspects.

What your problem is you are arguing that his team isn't a team of all stars while also arguing that one of the most successful coaches of all time is letting a player who isn't Zion shoot far more than him and build an offense around him but Zion, who isn't the #1 option on offense is having the best college basketball season of all time.

I regret not making this statement before when you started talking about usage rates. You can't be the best college basketball player of all time if you aren't even the #1 option on offense on your own team.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Bird was the best player I ever saw. Melo 2nd. Kareem was before my time but what the 3 had in common was the unstoppability. Guys should put away the stats. The thread asks who was the best you've ever SEEN.

93
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ts_pct_career.html
194
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/efg_pct_career.html

Jordan is great with PER, but PER was also basically created for MJ.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Oh, snap. Love me some MJ, but Rick is 100% correct there. Careful, Rick, or you'll be called a Lebron-loving Communist.

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