It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:07 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:15 pm
Posts: 39750
Location: Small Fringe Minority
pizza_Place: John's
leashyourkids wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I didn't hear the conversation, but you could easily make the argument that Rose was the third best Bull ever at one given time (his MVP season).

If you're talking entire career, then no... but they're two different discussions.

Again, one of the worst MVP winners ever. That can be backed up with metrics.


That's irrelevant to my point unless you think there are other individual seasons outside of Jordan and Pippen that Bulls players have had that are better than Rose's MVP season. The "MVP" part of it has nothing to do with it. My point is that - in a single year - you could make the argument that Rose was the third best Bull ever. You just couldn't make the argument (or even come close) if you're talking about an entire career.


If you factor Butler actually plays defense, he's having a better year this year than Rose in 2010


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:56 am
Posts: 32235
Location: A sterile, homogeneous suburb
pizza_Place: Pizza Cucina
Don Tiny wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I didn't hear the conversation, but you could easily make the argument that Rose was the third best Bull ever at one given time (his MVP season).

If you're talking entire career, then no... but they're two different discussions.

True but the first one is pointless.

Otherwise, we can sit around saying things like at one given time Kerry Wood was the greatest Cubs pitcher ever, or at one given time BigFan was the bored's greatest admin.


Agreed, but you'd have to agree on some sort of reasonable sample size more than just a game. I think a year is a large enough time period.

I really do think the distinction matters, though. There are guys who are celebrated for their being "good" and their longevity, but if I'm picking a starting 5 all time, they're not even on the list.

_________________
Curious Hair wrote:
I'm a big dumb shitlib baby


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:56 am
Posts: 32235
Location: A sterile, homogeneous suburb
pizza_Place: Pizza Cucina
Caller Bob wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I didn't hear the conversation, but you could easily make the argument that Rose was the third best Bull ever at one given time (his MVP season).

If you're talking entire career, then no... but they're two different discussions.

Again, one of the worst MVP winners ever. That can be backed up with metrics.


That's irrelevant to my point unless you think there are other individual seasons outside of Jordan and Pippen that Bulls players have had that are better than Rose's MVP season. The "MVP" part of it has nothing to do with it. My point is that - in a single year - you could make the argument that Rose was the third best Bull ever. You just couldn't make the argument (or even come close) if you're talking about an entire career.


If you factor Butler actually plays defense, he's having a better year this year than Rose in 2010


I disagree, but ok. Rose was asked to do much more and, at times, literally had no other offensive weapon on the court.

_________________
Curious Hair wrote:
I'm a big dumb shitlib baby


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:54 pm
Posts: 17129
Location: in the vents of life for joey belle
pizza_Place: how many planets have a chicago?
Curious Hair wrote:
To say top three would be to say Rose is better than everyone who ever played for the Bulls except Jordan and Pippen. He was really good here but I can't get on board with that one.


LITTLE KNOWN FACT = the Chicago bulls only got promoted to play in the NBA once they drafted m-jeff. Therefore, any presumed "bulls history" before m-jeff is laughably infinitesimal and therefore supporting the argument that dee Rhodes is the #3 player in franchise history.

_________________
Curious Hair wrote:
Les Grobstein's huge hog is proof that God has a sense of humor, isn't it?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:46 pm
Posts: 20575
pizza_Place: Giordano's
leashyourkids wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I didn't hear the conversation, but you could easily make the argument that Rose was the third best Bull ever at one given time (his MVP season).

If you're talking entire career, then no... but they're two different discussions.

Again, one of the worst MVP winners ever. That can be backed up with metrics.


That's irrelevant to my point unless you think there are other individual seasons outside of Jordan and Pippen that Bulls players have had that are better than Rose's MVP season. The "MVP" part of it has nothing to do with it. My point is that - in a single year - you could make the argument that Rose was the third best Bull ever. You just couldn't make the argument (or even come close) if you're talking about an entire career.


Chet Walker and Horace Grant both turned in individual seasons that bested Rose's MVP year in WS. The thing is, in terms of Win Shares, the top-20 list only has two non-repeat appearances: Chet Walker and Derrick Rose. But yeah, if you ignore 2 of the greatest Bulls to have ever played ( :roll: ), Derrick's single season of greatness doesn't look too shabby...until you consider stuff like True Shooting %, where Rose's MVP campaign ranks 51st all-time in Bulls history, or Win Shares per 48, which has Rose's MVP season ranking 21st all-time. Here are non-Jordan/Pippen players who had better WS/48 seasons with a minimum of 50 game appearances:

Chet Walker (x2)
Horace Grant
Toni Kukoc
Joakim Noah
Clifford Ray
Jimmy Butler
Artis Gilmore (x2)
Steve Kerr

So, Rose's MVP is, by certain metrics, not even in the Top 10 of all time, even when not counting Michael fucking Jordan and Scottie fucking Pippen.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 39604
Location: Everywhere
pizza_Place: giordanos
By some of your guys logic Noah is the best center ever because he made top 5 MVP vote list that one season. I don't think another center ever did? Maybe Gilmore?

_________________
We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.

-Ronald Reagan


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 11:10 am
Posts: 42094
Location: Rock Ridge (splendid!)
pizza_Place: Charlie Fox's / Paisano's
leashyourkids wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I didn't hear the conversation, but you could easily make the argument that Rose was the third best Bull ever at one given time (his MVP season).

If you're talking entire career, then no... but they're two different discussions.

Again, one of the worst MVP winners ever. That can be backed up with metrics.


That's irrelevant to my point unless you think there are other individual seasons outside of Jordan and Pippen that Bulls players have had that are better than Rose's MVP season. The "MVP" part of it has nothing to do with it. My point is that - in a single year - you could make the argument that Rose was the third best Bull ever. You just couldn't make the argument (or even come close) if you're talking about an entire career.


If you factor Butler actually plays defense, he's having a better year this year than Rose in 2010


I disagree, but ok. Rose was asked to do much more and, at times, literally had no other offensive weapon on the court.

I cannot believe people that still disparage the efforts of people like Ronnie Brewer or Jannero Pargo.

_________________
Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:56 am
Posts: 32235
Location: A sterile, homogeneous suburb
pizza_Place: Pizza Cucina
@Jln

Don't ever roll your eyes at me, bitch.

You're relying way too heavily on stats in a sport that doesn't use them well. Rose was constantly taking bail out shots that year, collapsing the defense, and allowed for half of the big men's rebounds off his penetration. But, yeah, Toni Kukoc had a more impactful year. :roll:

_________________
Curious Hair wrote:
I'm a big dumb shitlib baby


Last edited by leashyourkids on Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:56 am
Posts: 32235
Location: A sterile, homogeneous suburb
pizza_Place: Pizza Cucina
pittmike wrote:
By some of your guys logic Noah is the best center ever because he made top 5 MVP vote list that one season. I don't think another center ever did? Maybe Gilmore?


No one is saying that.

_________________
Curious Hair wrote:
I'm a big dumb shitlib baby


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:46 pm
Posts: 20575
pizza_Place: Giordano's
leashyourkids wrote:
@Jln

Don't ever roll your eyes at me, bitch.

You're relying way too heavily on stats in a sport that doesn't use them well. Rose was constantly taking bail out shots that year, collapsing the defense, and allowed for half of the big men's rebounds off his penetration. But, yeah, Toni Kukoc had a more impactful year. :roll:


Well, if we define a season's greatness by whatever indefinite and ambiguous parameters you and only you use (but still couldn't probably define), then yes, if you ignore Scottie goddamn Pippen and Michael goddamn Jordan, you might, in the right light, be able to argue that Rose's MVP campaign is one of the top-3 seasons of all time. :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 27570
pizza_Place: nick n vito's
Rose is nowhere near a top 5 Bull all time.

_________________
The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Laurence Holmes is a fucking weirdo, a nerd in denial, and a wannabe. Not a very good radio host either.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:56 am
Posts: 32235
Location: A sterile, homogeneous suburb
pizza_Place: Pizza Cucina
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
@Jln

Don't ever roll your eyes at me, bitch.

You're relying way too heavily on stats in a sport that doesn't use them well. Rose was constantly taking bail out shots that year, collapsing the defense, and allowed for half of the big men's rebounds off his penetration. But, yeah, Toni Kukoc had a more impactful year. :roll:


Well, if we define a season's greatness by whatever indefinite and ambiguous parameters you and only you use (but still couldn't probably define), then yes, if you ignore Scottie goddamn Pippen and Michael goddamn Jordan, you might, in the right light, be able to argue that Rose's MVP campaign is one of the top-3 seasons of all time. :roll:


You've obfuscated the original intent of the discussion so much as to render it meaningless, and I don't have the energy to go back.

Just always remember that your stat has Steve Kerr with a more dominant performance than Derrick Rose's MVP season.

_________________
Curious Hair wrote:
I'm a big dumb shitlib baby


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 11:10 am
Posts: 42094
Location: Rock Ridge (splendid!)
pizza_Place: Charlie Fox's / Paisano's
leashyourkids wrote:
pittmike wrote:
By some of your guys logic Noah is the best center ever because he made top 5 MVP vote list that one season. I don't think another center ever did? Maybe Gilmore?


No one is saying that.

MANY of the voices in his head are.

_________________
Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 27570
pizza_Place: nick n vito's
Ron Wolfley wrote:
Derrick put up 30 points, 10 boards, and 5 dimes last night. Why does Spiegel think this thing gets worse? He's going to make a lot of money this summer.



He will make some dough, sure...he won't get a max deal ever again.

_________________
The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Laurence Holmes is a fucking weirdo, a nerd in denial, and a wannabe. Not a very good radio host either.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:46 pm
Posts: 20575
pizza_Place: Giordano's
leashyourkids wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
@Jln

Don't ever roll your eyes at me, bitch.

You're relying way too heavily on stats in a sport that doesn't use them well. Rose was constantly taking bail out shots that year, collapsing the defense, and allowed for half of the big men's rebounds off his penetration. But, yeah, Toni Kukoc had a more impactful year. :roll:


Well, if we define a season's greatness by whatever indefinite and ambiguous parameters you and only you use (but still couldn't probably define), then yes, if you ignore Scottie goddamn Pippen and Michael goddamn Jordan, you might, in the right light, be able to argue that Rose's MVP campaign is one of the top-3 seasons of all time. :roll:


You've obfuscated the original intent of the discussion so much as to render it meaningless, and I don't have the energy to go back.

Just always remember that your stat has Steve Kerr with a more dominant performance than Derrick Rose's MVP season.


Rose's 2010 season ranks 42nd in Bulls history in Offensive Rating among players with a minimum of 2000 minutes in a season. In Defensive Rating, his season ranks...42nd.

Rose's MVP season was barely "very good". Even ignoring the seasons of Jordan and Pippen, a barely "very good" season isn't going to rank well in the team's history.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:41 am
Posts: 678
pizza_Place: Lou Malnati's
I don't think I like Parkins. He seems like more of a know it all than Bernstein. Still going to give it a few weeks. Maybe he'll calm down.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:22 pm
Posts: 200
pizza_Place: Fasano's
Yea not sure I dig him either yet. Kind of off putting at times. The show hasn't caught its rhythm either. I guess that is what happens when you only talk once before starting a 4 hour radio show.

Also wtf is with the show. One producer hasn't seen Caddy Shack, Spiegs wont watch Predator, and all the bad mouthing about John Wick. Blah


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:35 pm
Posts: 79880
It saddens me that Orlando wool ridge is forgotten by history

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:49 pm
Posts: 4430
pizza_Place: Rosati's
Derrick's in the Bulls all-time starting 5. You're crazy if you think otherwise. This is a dude who scored 36 points and dished 11 assists in his first playoff game ever. His MVP season speaks for itself. Keith Bogans was their starting shooting guard. Keith Bogans. Averaged 4.4 points that season and stood in the corner all year. Boozer missed 23 games and Noah missed 30. Derrick played and started 81 games. He scored 30+ points in 23 games and 20+ points in 62 games. He carried the team to the best record in the association.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:43 pm
Posts: 18467
Location: end of lonely street
pizza_Place: Obbies
jimmypasta wrote:
Let me name the Bulls with a better career than Rose while wearing a Chicago jersey:

Jalen Rose
Tom Boerwinkle
Bob Love
Dennis Rodman
Chet Walker
Norm Van Lier
Jerry Sloan
Elton Brand
Luol Deng
Artis Gilmore....I'm sure others can add some more


Pasta how could you forget?
Image

_________________
I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:46 pm
Posts: 20575
pizza_Place: Giordano's
Ron Wolfley wrote:
His MVP season speaks for itself.


As one of the worst of any MVP in the history of the league? Yes, it does.

Derrick's MVP season ranks, among all MVP seasons:

51st in Win Shares
52nd in WS/48
50th in PER
33rd in Offensive Rating
31st in Defensive Rating
11th in USG% (Which is awful, because it means he used 33% of the team's possessions to put up shitty offensive numbers)
34th in PPG
10th in ASTPG
47th in eFG%
46th in TS%
53rd in FG%

Derrick won the MVP that year because people got sick of giving it to LeBron. It is widely regarded, and rightly so, as one of the worst MVP seasons in NBA history. Without the MVP dressing everyone would remember that season as they should: a pretty decent season for a PG, but not "elite" and certainly not befitting a "superstar" or one of a team's 5-best players in history.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:30 am
Posts: 4113
pizza_Place: Palermo's 95th
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Ron Wolfley wrote:
His MVP season speaks for itself.


As one of the worst of any MVP in the history of the league? Yes, it does.

Derrick's MVP season ranks, among all MVP seasons:

51st in Win Shares
52nd in WS/48
50th in PER
33rd in Offensive Rating
31st in Defensive Rating
11th in USG% (Which is awful, because it means he used 33% of the team's possessions to put up shitty offensive numbers)
34th in PPG
10th in ASTPG
47th in eFG%
46th in TS%
53rd in FG%

Derrick won the MVP that year because people got sick of giving it to LeBron. It is widely regarded, and rightly so, as one of the worst MVP seasons in NBA history. Without the MVP dressing everyone would remember that season as they should: a pretty decent season for a PG, but not "elite" and certainly not befitting a "superstar" or one of a team's 5-best players in history.

Howard deserved MVP that year over both of them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:30 am
Posts: 4113
pizza_Place: Palermo's 95th
And the primary reason he won wasn't because the media was sick of giving it to Lebron but because he was perceived as the best player on the best team in the regular season (a team that was expected to not do nearly as well) and there was effectively no chance of any of the Big Three getting it the season after they teamed up, just like there's no chance of Durant or Curry winning it this year. I don't even remember many of the metrics people being outraged by Rose winning or anything at the time; even the high usage and lower efficiency stats were seen as necessitated by Chicago having no one who could create their own shot, not as Kobe-like flaws.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:46 pm
Posts: 20575
pizza_Place: Giordano's
ZephMarshack wrote:
And the primary reason he won wasn't because the media was sick of giving it to Lebron but because he was perceived as the best player on the best team in the regular season (a team that was expected to not do nearly as well) and there was effectively no chance of any of the Big Three getting it the season after they teamed up, just like there's no chance of Durant or Curry winning it this year. I don't even remember many of the metrics people being outraged by Rose winning or anything at the time; even the high usage and lower efficiency stats were seen as necessitated by Chicago having no one who could create their own shot, not as Kobe-like flaws.


"sick of giving it to LeBron" was a wrong word choice, but there is little doubt LeBron was enduring much PR flack throughout all of that season for The Decision, and the Bulls being a couple wins better than the Heat was convenient reason enough in the mind of many sportswriters. But there were plenty of people saying Rose shouldn't win MVP at the time, whether because his defensive contributions were the weakest on a team winning because of defense, or because he was, statistically, barely a top-5 player in the league.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 27570
pizza_Place: nick n vito's
Rose was on the team for 8 years, he started 405 out of 656 games. He had one great season and 7 years of meh.

_________________
The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Laurence Holmes is a fucking weirdo, a nerd in denial, and a wannabe. Not a very good radio host either.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:52 pm
Posts: 12657
Location: My Pants
pizza_Place: Geo's Pizza
Dear God, the Rose talk needs to end, PTFB.

_________________
The Original Spanky wrote:
I don't like white rappers.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:30 am
Posts: 4113
pizza_Place: Palermo's 95th
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
And the primary reason he won wasn't because the media was sick of giving it to Lebron but because he was perceived as the best player on the best team in the regular season (a team that was expected to not do nearly as well) and there was effectively no chance of any of the Big Three getting it the season after they teamed up, just like there's no chance of Durant or Curry winning it this year. I don't even remember many of the metrics people being outraged by Rose winning or anything at the time; even the high usage and lower efficiency stats were seen as necessitated by Chicago having no one who could create their own shot, not as Kobe-like flaws.


"sick of giving it to LeBron" was a wrong word choice, but there is little doubt LeBron was enduring much PR flack throughout all of that season for The Decision, and the Bulls being a couple wins better than the Heat was convenient reason enough in the mind of many sportswriters. But there were plenty of people saying Rose shouldn't win MVP at the time, whether because his defensive contributions were the weakest on a team winning because of defense, or because he was, statistically, barely a top-5 player in the league.

The defensive argument pushed the most by Neil Paine never made a lick of sense to me. Most publicly available individual level defensive metrics have obviously always been pretty bad but even granting that he was pretty far from the weakest defender in the Bulls starting lineup and he compared favorably to pretty much everyone else at his position that season on a good portion of those metrics.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1/19: WRSE
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:35 pm
Posts: 79880
Image

Dude was cut. He looked like a basketball player

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group