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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 8:05 am 
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Decent day here, aside from R12 :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 7:38 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
It's a dead game. They let this guy ruin the Derby.

Are referring to his cheating?

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2021 8:44 pm 
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Franky T wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
It's a dead game. They let this guy ruin the Derby.

Are referring to his cheating?



It's just absurd. Everyone that knows anything about racing knows it. But it's gone so far that it would be the end of racing to admit or address it. So everyone in the business has to pretend that he's this great guy who is just that much better than everyone else. It's so insulting to great horsemen who are square guys like Rusty Arnold, Graham Motion, Frankie Brothers, Richard Mandella, etc. These guys are all brilliant horsemen. There isn't any secret that Bob Baffert knows about a horse that they don't. And it isn't that he "gets the finest" as his defenders like to claim. Sure, he has some expensive yearlings. So do a lot of guys. He's won the Derby with many cheap horses. This one sold for $1000. It's just embarrassing how brazen this guy is. But what are they going to do? Tell the public that the race they wait for every year so they can dress up, drink Juleps, and root for a great champion is completely phony? They can't. So we have to keep pretending that he's great. That was a juice trifecta. Three guys all known for lighting them up. Baffert is just the worst of them. At least Bad Cox and Drug O'Neill aren't constantly looking around for the camera.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:03 am 
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unfortunately for the poor horse, probably will go the way of justify after the triple crown...although i'm not sure this one's built for that.

baffert is absolutely a monster in the sport, but like JORR said, he's too important and too big to fail. it would be the end of horseracing if he got what he really deserves.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:26 am 
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I feel bad that Baffert is making me hate this horse, because it really is a good story and it isn't the horse's fault. I've seen every one of his races and the horse has a heart as big as a whale. When they were three to the drive in the Robert B. Lewis he was tired as hell but he just kept digging and got his nose in front.

But to just pop to the front in the Derby and go down the road and keep finding more, well it's obvious that he isn't doing that on hay, oats, and water. No trainer just has a horse like that every year, let alone more than one. This guy was a third stringer. And he just rolls up those quick fractions and keeps going. It was like a repeat of last year. I get that he had some luck with other speed horses missing the break, but come on. Like I said, it's insulting.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 2:28 pm 
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You have probably covered this before but why don't they drug test winners? Is it too easy to mask? Or would laws and rules need to be re-written?

I wouldn't think you would need to test every donkey that wins a claiming race but even if you did just the Graded Stakes Races, that could restore some credibility.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 2:32 pm 
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Won't people lose interest anyway? It really does take all the fun out of it. Casual fans or whatever can't support the sport showing up once or twice a year and real fans will turn their back on it. I felt let down by it.


Last edited by Spaulding on Mon May 03, 2021 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 2:33 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I feel bad that Baffert is making me hate this horse, because it really is a good story and it isn't the horse's fault. I've seen every one of his races and the horse has a heart as big as a whale. When they were three to the drive in the Robert B. Lewis he was tired as hell but he just kept digging and got his nose in front.

But to just pop to the front in the Derby and go down the road and keep finding more, well it's obvious that he isn't doing that on hay, oats, and water. No trainer just has a horse like that every year, let alone more than one. This guy was a third stringer. And he just rolls up those quick fractions and keeps going. It was like a repeat of last year. I get that he had some luck with other speed horses missing the break, but come on. Like I said, it's insulting.

Next year, can you tell me which of his horses will win?

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 2:59 pm 
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a genius wrote:
You have probably covered this before but why don't they drug test winners? Is it too easy to mask? Or would laws and rules need to be re-written?

I wouldn't think you would need to test every donkey that wins a claiming race but even if you did just the Graded Stakes Races, that could restore some credibility.



They do test but the top guys are so far ahead of the curve that it would take Olympic level testing to catch them. You have to wonder if anyone is actually interested in catching them. The Horse Racing Integrity and Safety Act may make a difference. We'll see.

If I had to guess I would say Baffert is using EPO among other things. The idea is to oxygenate the blood. The horse will run all day. But it's terrible for him. Eventually the blood gets sludgy. It's difficult, because no one is going to make the accusation about these guys, but everybody knows. The excuses/defenses used by Servis and Navarro before the were caught dead to rights are the same as the ones used by Baffert. At least those guys were doing their thing in cheap claimers at GP and MTH rather than in the classic races. And look at Maximum Security. When Servis got busted who did the Wests immediately send the horse to? That's right, good old Bobby B.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 3:01 pm 
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Brick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I feel bad that Baffert is making me hate this horse, because it really is a good story and it isn't the horse's fault. I've seen every one of his races and the horse has a heart as big as a whale. When they were three to the drive in the Robert B. Lewis he was tired as hell but he just kept digging and got his nose in front.

But to just pop to the front in the Derby and go down the road and keep finding more, well it's obvious that he isn't doing that on hay, oats, and water. No trainer just has a horse like that every year, let alone more than one. This guy was a third stringer. And he just rolls up those quick fractions and keeps going. It was like a repeat of last year. I get that he had some luck with other speed horses missing the break, but come on. Like I said, it's insulting.

Next year, can you tell me which of his horses will win?


I laughed after the race Saturday because I could picture some guy who has no clue about anything looking at me and my expertise and saying, "Hey dummy, you're so smart but I just cashed on a $26 dollar horse. It was easy. The guy wins every year!" :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 3:06 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:
Won't people lose interest anyway?


I don't think so. Every regular I know hates him. But everyone I know who only bets once a year on the Derby thinks he's great. It's like people who love rooting for Duke or the Yankees. And they have no idea that he's not on the square. They just think they're watching Ben Jones saddle 'em up. But maybe Ben Jones cheated too. I don't know. I do know that when there's money to be made, someone will try to take advantage. It's just human nature.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 3:10 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
Won't people lose interest anyway?


I don't think so. Every regular I know hates him. But everyone I know who only bets once a year on the Derby thinks he's great. It's like people who love rooting for Duke or the Yankees. And they have no idea that he's not on the square. They just think they're watching Ben Jones saddle 'em up. But maybe Ben Jones cheated too. I don't know. I do know that when there's money to be made, someone will try to take advantage. It's just human nature.

Only having a passing interest in the sport, I presumed they all were cheating. And that it became a level playing field.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 3:20 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
Won't people lose interest anyway?


I don't think so. Every regular I know hates him. But everyone I know who only bets once a year on the Derby thinks he's great. It's like people who love rooting for Duke or the Yankees. And they have no idea that he's not on the square. They just think they're watching Ben Jones saddle 'em up. But maybe Ben Jones cheated too. I don't know. I do know that when there's money to be made, someone will try to take advantage. It's just human nature.

Only having a passing interest in the sport, I presumed they all were cheating. And that it became a level playing field.



I would say there's some truth to that. I don't think anyone going at the highest levels is doing it on just hay, oats, and water. Everyone uses a "pre-race". But there's a difference between that and some of the stuff the worst guys do. Also, to be so in your face with it. He knows they can't do shit or it would be a massive black eye for the entire sport. So he's just brazen. I consider what he did that day with Arrogate in the Travers and his sprinter in the King's Bishop that same year to be a complete embarrassment for the sport. It's just, "I'm gonna light these things up so much and jam them down your throat and there ain't a damn thing anyone is gonna do to stop me."

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 3:22 pm 
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Makes me sad for the horses.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 3:27 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Brick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I feel bad that Baffert is making me hate this horse, because it really is a good story and it isn't the horse's fault. I've seen every one of his races and the horse has a heart as big as a whale. When they were three to the drive in the Robert B. Lewis he was tired as hell but he just kept digging and got his nose in front.

But to just pop to the front in the Derby and go down the road and keep finding more, well it's obvious that he isn't doing that on hay, oats, and water. No trainer just has a horse like that every year, let alone more than one. This guy was a third stringer. And he just rolls up those quick fractions and keeps going. It was like a repeat of last year. I get that he had some luck with other speed horses missing the break, but come on. Like I said, it's insulting.

Next year, can you tell me which of his horses will win?


I laughed after the race Saturday because I could picture some guy who has no clue about anything looking at me and my expertise and saying, "Hey dummy, you're so smart but I just cashed on a $26 dollar horse. It was easy. The guy wins every year!" :lol:

I'm not joking. I want you to pick one of his horses as the immoral bet and I'm going to put my money on it.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 3:29 pm 
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Spaulding wrote:
Makes me sad for the horses.



Well, yeah. They took a lot of bad apples out and I suspect they were going to be working to do the same on the West Coast, but unfortunately COVID hit and the story got buried and the investigation became a backburner thing.

There are a lot of great horsemen who do it right. You can see the difference between Baffert and Todd Pletcher. Malathaat is a truly great horse. She overcame a lot in the Oaks. He won't show up with one as good as her next year though. And she doesn't just go right to the lead every time and blitz a field. The way Baffert's horses race is a telltale sign, like Sammy Sosa's giant head.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 3:32 pm 
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I think it's also pretty common these days in sports. When so many pro athletes are having years as good or better than they ever have from 35-45 years old it just doesn't make sense.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 6:49 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Brick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I feel bad that Baffert is making me hate this horse, because it really is a good story and it isn't the horse's fault. I've seen every one of his races and the horse has a heart as big as a whale. When they were three to the drive in the Robert B. Lewis he was tired as hell but he just kept digging and got his nose in front.

But to just pop to the front in the Derby and go down the road and keep finding more, well it's obvious that he isn't doing that on hay, oats, and water. No trainer just has a horse like that every year, let alone more than one. This guy was a third stringer. And he just rolls up those quick fractions and keeps going. It was like a repeat of last year. I get that he had some luck with other speed horses missing the break, but come on. Like I said, it's insulting.

Next year, can you tell me which of his horses will win?


I laughed after the race Saturday because I could picture some guy who has no clue about anything looking at me and my expertise and saying, "Hey dummy, you're so smart but I just cashed on a $26 dollar horse. It was easy. The guy wins every year!" :lol:


that's what my dad asked me when i talked to him over the weekend. he said "why didn't you just bet him if he wins every year?" i said...because of the principle of the thing lol.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 6:57 am 
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Brick wrote:
I think it's also pretty common these days in sports. When so many pro athletes are having years as good or better than they ever have from 35-45 years old it just doesn't make sense.



Yeah, I'm not saying the cheaters are completely gone from baseball- someone is always going to try to get an edge- but you can see the difference between the ages of the players now and what you would call their "prime" vs. what it was ten years ago. When I was a kid, a guy who was thirty was getting old and a guy who was twenty could actually break in and play. It's like that again. It seems like whatever measures they've taken worked.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 7:01 am 
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https://www.horseraceinsider.com/mixed- ... icas-race/

HALLANDALE BEACH, FL, May 2, 2021 – On the first Saturday in May, with temperatures in the low 70s, beneath the twin spires and under cloudless skies, 51,838 assorted fans, gamblers, and beautiful people assembled for a traditional celebration of America that was two years in the making.

The Kentucky Derby is sports theater at its best. Like Forrest’s mama always told him, you never know what you’re going to get. And just like a box of assorted chocolates, there are things you like, don’t like, and some you never hope to see again.

Unlike the Godfather, I don’t insist on hearing bad news immediately so, as racetrackers say, let’s get off on the good foot. Just like Johnny Velazquez, who NBC analyst Jerry Bailey termed “the best position rider I’ve ever seen.” Bailey would know.

Johnny V, whose mounts have earned more purse money than any rider in the sport’s history had a plan, one he executed flawlessly with, however unintended, the help of 18 rivals who were clutching and grabbing in a desperate attempt to secure the perfect trip.

The problem is that the best trip of all is early speed virtually unchallenged. There was some mild pressure outside from longshot Soup and Sandwich, as Florent Geroux was content to sit a loose pocket with a loaded Mandaloun. Hot Rod Charlie merely maintained close order after some early traffic issues.

Challenges eventually came on the far turn but the pace was moderate enough to allow Velazquez to tease his rivals, letting out notches of rein as more serious challenges to began to mount. At that point, 18 rivals dwindled down to three of four as headstretch approached.

Racing luck always matters, and fortune smiled on Medina Spirit while potential threats were compromised, seriously or otherwise. Even if he were more experienced, second favorite Rock Your World was completely eliminated at the start when he broke tardily and was badly buffeted about.

In five jumps, Rock Your World’s Derby was over, but wait there’s more.

Midnight Bourbon and Dynamic One came together to the detriment of both. Keepmeinmind broke in a tangle and was the only horse to make ground through the stretch. Sainthood and Brooklyn Strong exchanged punches, knocking each other out.

The horse who eliminated Rock Your World was favorite Essential Quality. This time Luis Saez was blameless. But in riding “the best horse,” Saez gave up too much ground on both turns then pushed the button a tad too soon, mitigating the kind of surge that enabled the champion to win the Blue Grass.

The good news/bad news was trainer Bob Baffert’s record-setting seventh Kentucky Derby victory. It’s not a good look when the face of the sport is placed in an unflattering spotlight on national television. But don’t blame the messenger for reporting the facts.

The positive findings, disqualifications and later Arkansas Racing Commission’s reversal on appeal was another victory for “process,” allowing a rules-breaker off the hook with arguments of administrative ineptness. Violation of the trainer responsibility rule could not be proven beyond doubt.

The ugly came from the Internet, as it often does, and Racing Twitter had its way with Mr. Baffert and Thoroughbred racing itself. It had questions and made observations, proving that noise that can never be completely shut out. And every tweet tells a story.

Tweet from Michael: “BB has a drug to give more oxygen in there [sic] blood. That would explain how horses never get tired and rebreak in the stretch. This happened in the Triple Crown races, and not an isolated situation.”

Linda’s tweet asked: “What kind of concoctions could be given that can’t be detected through testing?”

June Wright tweeted: “Worst thing about a cheater winning the Derby? It makes you feel like a fool for even watching. What chumps they must think we are.”

My response to Linda: “Whatever [the concoction], it is in R & D as we speak. Eventually, testing catches up … eventually.”

And this, to no one in particular: “When and if the Feds get to do their thing next year, change has a chance to come. Many people who love the idea of this game will hold their nose, open their ADW account, and bet. Those who can’t live with that reality will walk away, as many have…”

Like Swift tweeted: “I think I’m officially done with horse racing!”

Next stop, Baltimore.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 9:44 am 
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That's an interesting recap, thanks for posting.

Do you agree with it? I'm interested to hear your and others POV who are way more involved with horseracing than I am.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 9:46 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
That's an interesting recap, thanks for posting.

Do you agree with it? I'm interested to hear your and others POV who are way more involved with horseracing than I am.



Yeah, Pricci knows what he's talking about.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 12:17 pm 
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Dignified Rube wrote:
The three speed horses in the race are Medina Spirit, Hot Rod Charlie and Rock Your World. Given how the race has gone to the horses on the lead, I like Rock Your World in this spot.


If only I had followed my own advice more and taken the speed. Not knowing anything, my sister picked Medina Spirit and won.

It was not improbable that Medina Spirit would win, when the speed horses have been winning the KD last few years. That doesn't make the horse juiced, because Baffert is the trainer. He had the speed to win.

Rock Your World is the one that didn't have any excuses. Hot Rod Charlie did well like I thought.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 1:04 pm 
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Dignified Rube wrote:
Dignified Rube wrote:
The three speed horses in the race are Medina Spirit, Hot Rod Charlie and Rock Your World. Given how the race has gone to the horses on the lead, I like Rock Your World in this spot.


If only I had followed my own advice more and taken the speed. Not knowing anything, my sister picked Medina Spirit and won.

It was not improbable that Medina Spirit would win, when the speed horses have been winning the KD last few years. That doesn't make the horse juiced, because Baffert is the trainer. He had the speed to win.

Rock Your World is the one that didn't have any excuses. Hot Rod Charlie did well like I thought.



A lot of things had to happen for him to end up on that easy lead. But credit to Johnny V. as well as to Medina Spirit who is as good a gate horse as you'll see.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:56 am 
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Well, well, well......

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 9:40 am 
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JORR was right after all.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/kentucky-d ... 19365.html


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 12:09 pm 
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Baffert also suspended by Churchill Downs.

What a black eye for the sport that had its problems already.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 12:56 pm 
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Good. Makes a mess of the bets.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 1:03 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
Good. Makes a mess of the bets.

The bets will not change.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Kentucky Derby
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 1:17 pm 
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......and nothing is going to happen

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