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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:35 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
The core of Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid is a fantasy :lol:


Even good health's a bitch sometimes :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:36 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
The Spurs have used the draft but they never tanked, outside maybe the one season where Robinson got hurt for the year and they got Duncan. Nobody on the current roster is the result of tanking.



That's true, and I wouldn't call my position pro-tanking per se. I do see the value in trying to win as many games as you can with a young and developing core, even if that core isn't going to get you anywhere..yet. But I also am absolutely against something like what the Bulls did this year in randomly signing Rondo and Wade to ensure exactly what we're seeing: a mediocre team winning by relying on past their prime free agents who won't be around next year or maybe the year after. This team has a short shelf life.

We are seeing the value of Rondo and Wade right now. If the Bulls had a halfway decent coach then Rondo would've never been inexplicably benched for half the season and the team would've won 48-50 games. And if they have some success this season it increases their chances of free agents looking at them in the offseason. All of that is much better than trading Butler for 50 cents on the dollar and becoming a 20 win team for the next three seasons or more.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:38 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Veganfan, do you want to see the Bulls win the title this season?


You're asking me to suppress my intellect.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:40 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Veganfan, do you want to see the Bulls win the title this season?


You're asking me to suppress my intellect.

:lol:

To be fair, that hasn't been a problem for you the rest of this thread.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:42 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Veganfan, do you want to see the Bulls win the title this season?


You're asking me to suppress my intellect.


You mean because it's "impossible" for the Bulls to win? It's obviously highly unlikely, true, but 100-1 shots win in horse racing all the time. Villanova running the table culminating in beating Georgetown was more unlikely than a Bulls win would be.

That's the point of being a fan. You don't have to be able to envision it, you just have to root for it.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:44 pm 
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Philly is a good case study, back in the 80's. They tanked to nine wins, and eventually picked up Collins, World B Free, Jelly Bean Bryant (before he blewed up) Doc, Bobby Jones, Darryl Dawkins, Mo Cheeks and the underrated Caldwell Jones. They were so close a number of times, but needed Malone to put them over the top. By the time that came, the core was too old to have sustained success...

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:48 pm 
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I recall being in high school in the late 80's, and one of the guys told me to watch out for the Braves. They had lost over 100 games in 1988 and were still terrible for a few years after. The year the guy told me to watch out for them they were bad, but I think it was the next year where they started winning division titles. I don't know if the Braves had some grand plan back then. But those terrible seasons soon turned into one of the best runs by a team.

I never looked at the Cubs plan as purposely losing. They simply ran off bad contracts and traded all major league talent to retool the team into a sustainable winner. Why is it ok to trade talent at the deadline in a hopeless season, but controversial to have a longer term plan that leads a team to start a season as hopeless? Baseball teams can't rebuild like football teams because of guaranteed contracts. Young players come along much slower in baseball. Guys you draft rarely have an immediate impact unlike football. Thus longer range planning is a necessity, and when an organization was run poorly for so long, it requires tough medicine to fix.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:52 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Veganfan, do you want to see the Bulls win the title this season?


You're asking me to suppress my intellect.


You mean because it's "impossible" for the Bulls to win? It's obviously highly unlikely, true, but 100-1 shots win in horse racing all the time. Villanova running the table culminating in beating Georgetown was more unlikely than a Bulls win would be.

That's the point of being a fan. You don't have to be able to envision it, you just have to root for it.


No. Villanova was more likely than the Bulls winning a title. Because of the 7 games series. Tourney runs are 6 games I think. And Villanova was probably favored in their first 2 or 3 games in their run.

It's impossible for the Bulls to beat the Cavs and whoever gets out of the west. Impossible.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:55 pm 
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Beardown wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Veganfan, do you want to see the Bulls win the title this season?


You're asking me to suppress my intellect.


You mean because it's "impossible" for the Bulls to win? It's obviously highly unlikely, true, but 100-1 shots win in horse racing all the time. Villanova running the table culminating in beating Georgetown was more unlikely than a Bulls win would be.

That's the point of being a fan. You don't have to be able to envision it, you just have to root for it.


No. Villanova was more likely than the Bulls winning a title. Because of the 7 games series. Tourney runs are 6 games I think. And Villanova was probably favored in their first 2 or 3 games in their run.

It's impossible for the Bulls to beat the Cavs and whoever gets out of the west. Impossible.

The Bulls can definitely beat the Cavs.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:06 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Beardown wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Veganfan, do you want to see the Bulls win the title this season?


You're asking me to suppress my intellect.


You mean because it's "impossible" for the Bulls to win? It's obviously highly unlikely, true, but 100-1 shots win in horse racing all the time. Villanova running the table culminating in beating Georgetown was more unlikely than a Bulls win would be.

That's the point of being a fan. You don't have to be able to envision it, you just have to root for it.


No. Villanova was more likely than the Bulls winning a title. Because of the 7 games series. Tourney runs are 6 games I think. And Villanova was probably favored in their first 2 or 3 games in their run.

It's impossible for the Bulls to beat the Cavs and whoever gets out of the west. Impossible.

The Bulls can definitely beat the Cavs.

Image

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:36 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Veganfan, do you want to see the Bulls win the title this season?


You're asking me to suppress my intellect.


That shouldn't take much effort.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:40 pm 
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Don Tiny wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Beardown wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Veganfan, do you want to see the Bulls win the title this season?


You're asking me to suppress my intellect.


You mean because it's "impossible" for the Bulls to win? It's obviously highly unlikely, true, but 100-1 shots win in horse racing all the time. Villanova running the table culminating in beating Georgetown was more unlikely than a Bulls win would be.

That's the point of being a fan. You don't have to be able to envision it, you just have to root for it.


No. Villanova was more likely than the Bulls winning a title. Because of the 7 games series. Tourney runs are 6 games I think. And Villanova was probably favored in their first 2 or 3 games in their run.

It's impossible for the Bulls to beat the Cavs and whoever gets out of the west. Impossible.

The Bulls can definitely beat the Cavs.

Image

We'll bet a shot on it after the Bulls beat the Wizards, assuming the Cavs make to the ECF.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:41 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
I really enjoyed that 2009 Boston series and the run to the Eastern Conference Finals with Rose. Neither resulted in titles, but if hanging a banner is the only thing that matters in sports it means I am not going to give a shit 80 percent of the time. That's not healthy for the league. And as far as I see it all but three teams should be tanking because I doubt anyone is going to beat Golden State (Cleveland and San Antonio have a chance).

As for this year's Bulls if they make it to the Eastern Conference Finals it will have made signing Wade more than worth it. Entertaining playoff basketball vs. what Philadelphia has been for the past 5 years. Not really a difficult choice.


Of course this is all subjective, but what I prefer is a team that is either competitive, or set up to be eventually competitive, over the course of several years. We thought we had that with Rose but that didn't happen, but that's more or less what I'd want. I'll give you something to counter the division you set up: the 2004-2007 Bulls weren't going to win anything either, but the team had promise. You could expect Deng, Gordon, and Hinrich to continue to develop, and then after that it was a matter of landing a big free agent or swinging a major trade to take the team to the next level.

The promise of that team, if everything worked in free agency, or maybe with that no. 2 pick they had, was tantalizing. Now that's a team I rooted for to make the playoffs and win as many regular season games that they could, even though there weren't going to win the whole thing. That would be good for the development of the young core, among other things. Had they avoided the lottery picks that netted Hinirch, Gordon, Deng, etc., by just signing mediocre free agents at the time, they would have remained a middling team with no promising young core to speak of. They would have made the playoffs here and there as first round fodder, which would have made some guys here happy and certainly management, but there'd be no promise for something better. I want that promise of something better.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:59 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
I never looked at the Cubs plan as purposely losing. They simply ran off bad contracts and traded all major league talent to retool the team into a sustainable winner. Why is it ok to trade talent at the deadline in a hopeless season, but controversial to have a longer term plan that leads a team to start a season as hopeless? Baseball teams can't rebuild like football teams because of guaranteed contracts. Young players come along much slower in baseball. Guys you draft rarely have an immediate impact unlike football. Thus longer range planning is a necessity, and when an organization was run poorly for so long, it requires tough medicine to fix.


They absolutely lost on purpose. They don't get Bryant or Schwarber otherwise. The Cubs could have spent crazy amounts to at least maintain respectability, if not contend. The thought that they couldn't spend money at the MLB level because they needed to rebuild the scouting department and training facilities is fallacious. It was never either/or. Even Bernstein...who originally seemed to shy away from using the term "tank" (until the Cubs actually won the WS), now openly says teams that don't do it are stupid.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:01 pm 
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I tuned in long enough today to hear NBA expert J Goff tell us that this series was nice, but the Bulls were going to get crushed by the Wizards.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:12 pm 
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Jaw Breaker wrote:
denisdman wrote:
I never looked at the Cubs plan as purposely losing. They simply ran off bad contracts and traded all major league talent to retool the team into a sustainable winner. Why is it ok to trade talent at the deadline in a hopeless season, but controversial to have a longer term plan that leads a team to start a season as hopeless? Baseball teams can't rebuild like football teams because of guaranteed contracts. Young players come along much slower in baseball. Guys you draft rarely have an immediate impact unlike football. Thus longer range planning is a necessity, and when an organization was run poorly for so long, it requires tough medicine to fix.


They absolutely lost on purpose. They don't get Bryant or Schwarber otherwise. The Cubs could have spent crazy amounts to at least maintain respectability, if not contend. The thought that they couldn't spend money at the MLB level because they needed to rebuild the scouting department and training facilities is fallacious. It was never either/or. Even Bernstein...who originally seemed to shy away from using the term "tank" (until the Cubs actually won the WS), now openly says teams that don't do it are stupid.


Ok which guys did they trade that you want back? And which free agents could they signed that would this a better team? Scherzer maybe?

Schwarber was over drafted where they picked him. They didn't tank to get him. Everyone, but IMU, thought the Cubs stretched to get him. But call it a tank job. It was definitely the right move.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:15 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Too much NBA fandom is "We need to tank to get a good player in the draft. This is such a terrible draft, there's no one good after about #4." What's the point? It's a sport that's wildly popular around the world and every year it can only produce four new players for the top-flight league and everyone else on a professional trajectory is a stiff?

need answer

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:19 pm 
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Guys like Kawhi Leonard, Jokic, Giannis, Butler, Draymond are some of the best players in the league right now and don't fit that description.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:44 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
It's also going to set them up much better for future success if you actually think about it. They never had a chance of getting a top 10 pick this year. The difference between the 14th and 16th picks is as negligible as it gets. The difference between being a respected team that competes in the playoffs and has a star in Jimmy Butler and being a tanking mess of an organization is significant. Free agents don't want to come help rebuild a team. They want to team up with other stars and win titles. We already have one of those stars in place, and they are very hard to acquire. One more and we're good to go.


According to your rubric there was no better free agent destination than Chicago in 2010 and we know how that turned out. If I'm Anthony Davis I'm not going to be hoodwinked into thinking this Bulls team has anyone to build around except Butler, and he's not going to be a young piece for that long anyway.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:47 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
If I'm Anthony Davis I'm not going to be hoodwinked into thinking this Bulls team has anyone to build around except Butler, and he's not going to be a young piece for that long anyway.

But what if you're Blake Griffin?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:48 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Veganfan, do you want to see the Bulls win the title this season?


You're asking me to suppress my intellect.

:lol:

To be fair, that hasn't been a problem for you the rest of this thread.



:lol: The guy who thinks the Bulls have a shot at the ECF and possibly the finals, even after barely making the playoffs at 41-41, is questioning someone else's intellect? :lol: Like I asked elsewhere, since you're such a big fan, why not bet on that? :D

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:59 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Veganfan, do you want to see the Bulls win the title this season?


You're asking me to suppress my intellect.

:lol:

To be fair, that hasn't been a problem for you the rest of this thread.



:lol: The guy who thinks the Bulls have a shot at the ECF and possibly the finals, even after barely making the playoffs at 41-41, is questioning someone else's intellect? :lol: Like I asked elsewhere, since you're such a big fan, why not bet on that? :D

If you still wanna bet on the Bulls Celtics I'm down.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:09 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
It's also going to set them up much better for future success if you actually think about it. They never had a chance of getting a top 10 pick this year. The difference between the 14th and 16th picks is as negligible as it gets. The difference between being a respected team that competes in the playoffs and has a star in Jimmy Butler and being a tanking mess of an organization is significant. Free agents don't want to come help rebuild a team. They want to team up with other stars and win titles. We already have one of those stars in place, and they are very hard to acquire. One more and we're good to go.


According to your rubric there was no better free agent destination than Chicago in 2010 and we know how that turned out. If I'm Anthony Davis I'm not going to be hoodwinked into thinking this Bulls team has anyone to build around except Butler, and he's not going to be a young piece for that long anyway.

A one offseason sample size is a pretty terrible way to predict future outcomes.

Edit: I also disagree with the second part of your post. A team built around Anthony Davis and Jimmy Butler is almost automatically going to win 55 games. Only one other team in the NBA features two top 10 players.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:16 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Veganfan, do you want to see the Bulls win the title this season?


You're asking me to suppress my intellect.


You mean because it's "impossible" for the Bulls to win? It's obviously highly unlikely, true, but 100-1 shots win in horse racing all the time. Villanova running the table culminating in beating Georgetown was more unlikely than a Bulls win would be.

That's the point of being a fan. You don't have to be able to envision it, you just have to root for it.


You know better than to compare the NBA playoffs to a win or die tournament for guys three years removed from puberty. I root for my teams when they're building towards a larger goal. This current iteration was haphazardly put together so they could market the shit out of Wade to fill seats and generate playoff revenue. I think by asking me to root for the Bulls' success in this example you're asking me to ignore all the business thinking that went into the composition of this team, most of which prioritized the short-term success of this team over building a sustainable winner. I'm down with ownership if they want to make money and win, but not when they want to sell me a pig with some designer lipstick on it.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:18 pm 
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What if it was celery with lipstick?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:22 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Veganfan, do you want to see the Bulls win the title this season?


You're asking me to suppress my intellect.


That shouldn't take much effort.


Did you type that from your coyote panic room?

leashyourkids wrote:
What if it was celery with lipstick?


:lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:17 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
What if it was celery with lipstick?

:lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:07 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
You know better than to compare the NBA playoffs to a win or die tournament for guys three years removed from puberty.


Well, I'm gonna say the Vegas odds against Villanova beating that Georgetown team in that championship game were greater than the odds against the Bulls would be in any seven game series in the Eastern Conference.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:19 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
I think this is still more media driven than fan driven to be honest. Michael Brendan Dougherty wrote about it a while ago:


Quote:
Stories like "How Philadelphia Eagles linebacker Connor Barwin — a bike-riding, socially conscious, Animal Collective-loving hipster — is redefining what it means to be a football player." I wonder if there was a follow-up asking all other football players whether they were redefined by Barwin's presence. It's notable that journalists who do seem to get along with average athletes, like Bill Simmons or even Stephen A. Smith, are treated with a little bit of suspicion by the rest of the sports writer tribe.



I was reading a Sports Illustrated from 1971 and the quote above reminded me of a blurb in it:

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:27 pm 
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