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I will contrast this with my flu shot position. I never took one. I asked my primary care doctor, and he said it is a toss up because:

-the shots are not highly effective, maybe 30-60% in any given year,
-they will generally cause a negative reaction,
-I am otherwise healthy, not having had the flu since my teenage years.

The education process is simple. I am all about personal decisions, so I am not going to shame you. But my seat belt example is where I land- would you wear it in the absence of a law?

This Ends in Antioch wrote:

denisdman wrote:

Well in that on air rant, he is right in that vaccines are generally safe, effective, and if you are educating yourself othere is no reason to avoid getting the shot(s). It is good for both you and society. There is no out of pocket cost.

It is in his delivery, so definitive and condescending, where I have an issue. To me it is the same stupidity of seat belt laws. Why would you ever drive without wearing one? If you are truly objective about the whole thing, you would get your shot(s).

The short answer would be that you don’t believe COVID sufficiently concerning to seek out a vaccination. I’d argue that’s a perfectly valid, objective reason.

But he is responding to the education process statement by Ross. If you truly sought out objective information, would you not come to the conclusion that it makes sense to get the shot?

-Highly effective,
-Safe, side effects suck as I know.
-Free

And sure I am not going to die from Covid, but I have two parents near 70. They have a high chance of dying. And of course you could argue for them to get their shots, but what about the variants that will spread easier if younger people do not?

We have a good shot at putting Covid to rest by people taking the sensible path.

This Ends in Antioch wrote:

The short answer would be that you don’t believe COVID sufficiently concerning to seek out a vaccination. I’d argue that’s a perfectly valid, objective reason.

This x1000

badrogue17 wrote:

This Ends in Antioch wrote:

The short answer would be that you don’t believe COVID sufficiently concerning to seek out a vaccination. I’d argue that’s a perfectly valid, objective reason.

This x1000

I agree. If that is your reason, fine. No need to go further.

Its when people scream IT"S UNSAFE when heart inflammation effects 0.0026% of vaccine recipients, so people then use that as a crutch NOT to get the vaccine that. That type of misinformation is a big problem, and is rapant in the Covid section and elsewhere here.

Frank Coztansa wrote:

badrogue17 wrote:

This Ends in Antioch wrote:

The short answer would be that you don’t believe COVID sufficiently concerning to seek out a vaccination. I’d argue that’s a perfectly valid, objective reason.

This x1000

We have no idea what the actual rate of heart inflammation is. And we certainly don't know what it does to younger people.

denisdman wrote:

I've gotten the flu shot every year for about 15 years and I've never had a negative reaction. I had a similar one to you in regards to the COVID vaccine too.

I get not getting the flu vaccine, but the other reason to get it is that it often lessens the reaction you get to the actual flu even if you still get it. I don't even care if someone chooses to not get the COVID vaccine.

No reason there can't be a highly effective mrna flu vaccine in the future which will change a lot.

Wfr, I just do not get your logic here.

This is what I'm concerned about. Penicillin was invented. Now we have super strong bacterium resistant to antibiotics. Why? Because we overprescribed antibiotics for common stuff that one's own body can, 99.97% of the time, can be taken care of b our bodies. Let's not go down that road again with common flu and common colds.

Bagels wrote:

denisdman wrote:

This same society that indulges in alcohol and prescription drug abuse, unhealthy diets, lack of exercise, etc.

right, when those insisting others get the vaccine are themselves overweight, out of shape, smokers, fast food addicts, etc. it's a bit hard to take it seriously when they're lecturing you on public health

I am not talking about JDC and her ilk. Ross says players are still educating themselves on the vaccine. Whether you do your own research, listen to experts, or talk to your doctor, how do you come to the conclusion that the vaccine shot is a bad choice?

Nardi wrote:

Antibiotics, actually bad?

That's a new one.

denisdman wrote:

Bagels wrote:

denisdman wrote:

This same society that indulges in alcohol and prescription drug abuse, unhealthy diets, lack of exercise, etc.

Here's some education. This guy invented the technology used in the vaccines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du2wm5nhTXY

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

denisdman wrote:

Bagels wrote:

denisdman wrote:

This same society that indulges in alcohol and prescription drug abuse, unhealthy diets, lack of exercise, etc.

Here's some education. This guy invented the technology used in the vaccines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du2wm5nhTXY

Is this you also not arguing against the vaccine? :lol:

Nardi wrote:

Antibiotics, actually bad?

That's a new one.

Brick wrote:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

denisdman wrote:

Bagels wrote:

denisdman wrote:

This same society that indulges in alcohol and prescription drug abuse, unhealthy diets, lack of exercise, etc.

Here's some education. This guy invented the technology used in the vaccines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du2wm5nhTXY

Is this you also not arguing against the vaccine? :lol:

I don't give a fuck if you take ten vaccines. I'm arguing against people trying to shame or force me into getting one.

WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:

Frank Coztansa wrote:

badrogue17 wrote:

This Ends in Antioch wrote:

The short answer would be that you don’t believe COVID sufficiently concerning to seek out a vaccination. I’d argue that’s a perfectly valid, objective reason.

This x1000

We have no idea what the actual rate of heart inflammation is. And we certainly don't know what it does to younger people.

Wfr, what is the long term impact of getting Covid? I mean you are scared of a vaccine that has been extensively tested, is highly effective and has not killed many people vs a disease that has wiped out millions in the short term and who knows what long term impact it might have.

You are more scared of a proven safe vaccine vs an unknown killer virus that keeps mutating. I just do not get your logic here.

The vaccines being administered went through large scale trials, the same process we use for any drug. Many drugs get approved with experimental or new technology, and that is why we run trials. The trials proved they were safe and effective. Covid on the other hand has killed millions, and puts millions more in the hospital.

So if you are just doing a simple cost/benefit analysis, I will take safe and effective vs the killer virus.

And again for Brick, I'm not "arguing against" the vaccines. Put whatever you want in your body but stop insisting others do the same.

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

I don't give a fuck if you take ten vaccines. I'm arguing against people trying to shame or force me into getting one.

Then do that. Say "It should be my choice to get one" and no one should argue with you on it.

Posting some youtube video with the title "Spike protein is very dangerous, it's cytotoxic " is arguing against the vaccine.

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

And again for Brick, I'm not "arguing against" the vaccines. Put whatever you want in your body but stop insisting others do the same.

What is the point of the youtube video you shared then?

I guess you could say I'm not "arguing for" the vaccine either.

The point is there are valid reasons not to take the vaccines.

The trials were obviously much shorter and less extensive than is typical. It was called Operation Warp Speed not Operation Careful and Precise.

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

The trials were obviously much shorter and less extensive than is typical. It was called Operation Warp Speed not Operation Careful and Precise.

But that doesn't automatically make it dangerous or unsafe, which is what you and MANY others are arguing even though you say you aren't.

Nardi wrote:

Antibiotics, actually bad?

That's a new one.

Bagels wrote:

denisdman wrote:

This same society that indulges in alcohol and prescription drug abuse, unhealthy diets, lack of exercise, etc.

Brick wrote:

Nardi wrote:

Antibiotics, actually bad?

That's a new one.

Can you read?

Brick wrote:

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

And again for Brick, I'm not "arguing against" the vaccines. Put whatever you want in your body but stop insisting others do the same.

What is the point of the youtube video you shared then?

I guess you could say I'm not "arguing for" the vaccine either.

The point is there are valid reasons not to take the vaccines. And even if there weren't it's still not dan bernstein's fucking business.

Author:	Brick [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
denisdman wrote: I will contrast this with my flu shot position. I never took one. I asked my primary care doctor, and he said it is a toss up because: -the shots are not highly effective, maybe 30-60% in any given year, -they will generally cause a negative reaction, -I am otherwise healthy, not having had the flu since my teenage years. The education process is simple. I am all about personal decisions, so I am not going to shame you. But my seat belt example is where I land- would you wear it in the absence of a law? I've gotten the flu shot every year for about 15 years and I've never had a negative reaction. I had a similar one to you in regards to the COVID vaccine too. I get not getting the flu vaccine, but the other reason to get it is that it often lessens the reaction you get to the actual flu even if you still get it. I don't even care if someone chooses to not get the COVID vaccine. No reason there can't be a highly effective mrna flu vaccine in the future which will change a lot.

Author:	badrogue17 [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
denisdman wrote: This Ends in Antioch wrote: denisdman wrote: Well in that on air rant, he is right in that vaccines are generally safe, effective, and if you are educating yourself othere is no reason to avoid getting the shot(s). It is good for both you and society. There is no out of pocket cost. It is in his delivery, so definitive and condescending, where I have an issue. To me it is the same stupidity of seat belt laws. Why would you ever drive without wearing one? If you are truly objective about the whole thing, you would get your shot(s). The short answer would be that you don’t believe COVID sufficiently concerning to seek out a vaccination. I’d argue that’s a perfectly valid, objective reason. But he is responding to the education process statement by Ross. If you truly sought out objective information, would you not come to the conclusion that it makes sense to get the shot? -Highly effective, -Safe, side effects suck as I know. -Free And sure I am not going to die from Covid, but I have two parents near 70. They have a high chance of dying. And of course you could argue for them to get their shots, but what about the variants that will spread easier if younger people do not? We have a good shot at putting Covid to rest by people taking the sensible path. Yeah they are in their 70's. You can say that about anything they might contract. Jason Heyward and Anthony Rizzo not being vaccinated isnt going to kill your parents.

Author:	This Ends in Antioch [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
denisdman wrote: I will contrast this with my flu shot position. I never took one. I asked my primary care doctor, and he said it is a toss up because: -the shots are not highly effective, maybe 30-60% in any given year, -they will generally cause a negative reaction, -I am otherwise healthy, not having had the flu since my teenage years. The education process is simple. I am all about personal decisions, so I am not going to shame you. But my seat belt example is where I land- would you wear it in the absence of a law? Personally yes, I’d like to assume I would, though I don’t want to speak for the Cubs. That said, the likelihood of an injury in a car crash seems far greater if you’re thrown from your seat. I have no stats to support that (and one anecdote that would suggest the opposite), but it seems like common sense. The odds of a significant adverse reaction from an actual COVID infection for many of these athletes is de minimis.

Author:	Frank Coztansa [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
badrogue17 wrote: This Ends in Antioch wrote: The short answer would be that you don’t believe COVID sufficiently concerning to seek out a vaccination. I’d argue that’s a perfectly valid, objective reason. This x1000 I agree. If that is your reason, fine. No need to go further. Its when people scream IT"S UNSAFE when heart inflammation effects 0.0026% of vaccine recipients, so people then use that as a crutch NOT to get the vaccine. That type of misinformation is a big problem, and is rapant in the Covid section and elsewhere here.

Author:	WaitingforRuffcorn [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
Frank Coztansa wrote: badrogue17 wrote: This Ends in Antioch wrote: The short answer would be that you don’t believe COVID sufficiently concerning to seek out a vaccination. I’d argue that’s a perfectly valid, objective reason. This x1000 I agree. If that is your reason, fine. No need to go further. Its when people scream IT"S UNSAFE when heart inflammation effects 0.0026% of vaccine recipients, so people then use that as a crutch NOT to get the vaccine that. That type of misinformation is a big problem, and is rapant in the Covid section and elsewhere here. We have no idea what the actual rate of heart inflammation is. And we certainly don't know what it does to younger people.

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More Vaccine Talk http://chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=125599	Page 4 of 6

Author:	denisdman [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote: Frank Coztansa wrote: badrogue17 wrote: This Ends in Antioch wrote: The short answer would be that you don’t believe COVID sufficiently concerning to seek out a vaccination. I’d argue that’s a perfectly valid, objective reason. This x1000 I agree. If that is your reason, fine. No need to go further. Its when people scream IT"S UNSAFE when heart inflammation effects 0.0026% of vaccine recipients, so people then use that as a crutch NOT to get the vaccine that. That type of misinformation is a big problem, and is rapant in the Covid section and elsewhere here. We have no idea what the actual rate of heart inflammation is. And we certainly don't know what it does to younger people. Wfr, what is the long term impact of getting Covid? I mean you are scared of a vaccine that has been extensively tested, is highly effective and has not killed many people vs a disease that has wiped out millions in the short term and who knows what long term impact it might have. You are more scared of a proven safe vaccine vs an unknown killer virus that keeps mutating. I just do not get your logic here.

Author:	Nardi [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
Brick wrote: denisdman wrote: I will contrast this with my flu shot position. I never took one. I asked my primary care doctor, and he said it is a toss up because: -the shots are not highly effective, maybe 30-60% in any given year, -they will generally cause a negative reaction, -I am otherwise healthy, not having had the flu since my teenage years. The education process is simple. I am all about personal decisions, so I am not going to shame you. But my seat belt example is where I land- would you wear it in the absence of a law? I've gotten the flu shot every year for about 15 years and I've never had a negative reaction. I had a similar one to you in regards to the COVID vaccine too. I get not getting the flu vaccine, but the other reason to get it is that it often lessens the reaction you get to the actual flu even if you still get it. I don't even care if someone chooses to not get the COVID vaccine. No reason there can't be a highly effective mrna flu vaccine in the future which will change a lot. This is what I'm concerned about. Penicillin was invented. Now we have super strong bacterium resistant to antibiotics. Why? Because we overprescribed antibiotics for common stuff that one's own body can, 99.97% of the time, be taken care of by our bodies. Let's not go down that road again with common flu and common colds.

Author:	Brick [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
Nardi wrote: This is what I'm concerned about. Penicillin was invented. Now we have super strong bacterium resistant to antibiotics. Why? Because we overprescribed antibiotics for common stuff that one's own body can, 99.97% of the time, can be taken care of b our bodies. Let's not go down that road again with common flu and common colds. Antibiotics, actually bad? That's a new one.

Author:	denisdman [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
People live on average until 80 now because of things like antibiotics. And because of all these drugs that go through rigorous trials but still have “unknown long term effects”. Are we just going to stop believing in the scientific method because of Trump?

Author:	Joe Orr Road Rod [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
denisdman wrote: Bagels wrote: denisdman wrote: This same society that indulges in alcohol and prescription drug abuse, unhealthy diets, lack of exercise, etc. right, when those insisting others get the vaccine are themselves overweight, out of shape, smokers, fast food addicts, etc. it's a bit hard to take it seriously when they're lecturing you on public health I am not talking about JDC and her ilk. Ross says players are still educating themselves on the vaccine. Whether you do your own research, listen to experts, or talk to your doctor, how do you come to the conclusion that the vaccine shot is a bad choice? Here's some education. This guy invented the technology used in the vaccines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du2wm5nhTXY

Author:	Brick [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: denisdman wrote: Bagels wrote: denisdman wrote: This same society that indulges in alcohol and prescription drug abuse, unhealthy diets, lack of exercise, etc. right, when those insisting others get the vaccine are themselves overweight, out of shape, smokers, fast food addicts, etc. it's a bit hard to take it seriously when they're lecturing you on public health I am not talking about JDC and her ilk. Ross says players are still educating themselves on the vaccine. Whether you do your own research, listen to experts, or talk to your doctor, how do you come to the conclusion that the vaccine shot is a bad choice? Here's some education. This guy invented the technology used in the vaccines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du2wm5nhTXY Is this you also not arguing against the vaccine?

Author:	FavreFan [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
Brick wrote: Nardi wrote: This is what I'm concerned about. Penicillin was invented. Now we have super strong bacterium resistant to antibiotics. Why? Because we overprescribed antibiotics for common stuff that one's own body can, 99.97% of the time, can be taken care of b our bodies. Let's not go down that road again with common flu and common colds. Antibiotics, actually bad? That's a new one. Overprescribed antibiotics, actually bad is not a new one however.

Author:	denisdman [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
The vaccines being administered went through large scale trials, the same process we use for any drug. Many drugs get approved with experimental or new technology, and that is why we run trials. The trials proved they were safe and effective. Covid on the other hand has killed millions, and puts millions more in the hospital. So if you are just doing a simple cost/benefit analysis, I will take safe and effective vs the killer virus.

Author:	Brick [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Brick wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: denisdman wrote: Bagels wrote: denisdman wrote: This same society that indulges in alcohol and prescription drug abuse, unhealthy diets, lack of exercise, etc. right, when those insisting others get the vaccine are themselves overweight, out of shape, smokers, fast food addicts, etc. it's a bit hard to take it seriously when they're lecturing you on public health I am not talking about JDC and her ilk. Ross says players are still educating themselves on the vaccine. Whether you do your own research, listen to experts, or talk to your doctor, how do you come to the conclusion that the vaccine shot is a bad choice? Here's some education. This guy invented the technology used in the vaccines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du2wm5nhTXY Is this you also not arguing against the vaccine? I don't give a fuck if you take ten vaccines. I'm arguing against people trying to shame or force me into getting one. Then do that. Say "It should be my choice to get one" and no one should argue with you on it. Posting some youtube video with the title "Spike protein is very dangerous, it's cytotoxic " is arguing against the vaccine.

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Author:	denisdman [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
As I said earlier, I am not shaming anyone. Ignore those people. But please be objective in your risk assessment of whether you should get it. The evidence is there, and it is overwhelming.

Author:	Brick [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: And again for Brick, I'm not "arguing against" the vaccines. Put whatever you want in your body but stop insisting others do the same. What is the point of the youtube video you shared then? I guess you could say I'm not "arguing for" the vaccine either.

Author:	Brick [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: The point is there are valid reasons not to take the vaccines. Then don't say you aren't arguing against the vaccine.

Author:	Frank Coztansa [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: The trials were obviously much shorter and less extensive than is typical. It was called Operation Warp Speed not Operation Careful and Precise. But that doesn't automatically make it dangerous or unsafe, which is what you and MANY others are arguing even though you say you aren't.

Author:	Nardi [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
Brick wrote: Nardi wrote: This is what I'm concerned about. Penicillin was invented. Now we have super strong bacterium resistant to antibiotics. Why? Because we overprescribed antibiotics for common stuff that one's own body can, 99.97% of the time, can be taken care of b our bodies. Let's not go down that road again with common flu and common colds. Antibiotics, actually bad? That's a new one. Can you read?

Author:	Crick Ramp [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
denisdman wrote: Bagels wrote: denisdman wrote: This same society that indulges in alcohol and prescription drug abuse, unhealthy diets, lack of exercise, etc. right, when those insisting others get the vaccine are themselves overweight, out of shape, smokers, fast food addicts, etc. it's a bit hard to take it seriously when they're lecturing you on public health I am not talking about JDC and her ilk. Ross says players are still educating themselves on the vaccine. Whether you do your own research, listen to experts, or talk to your doctor, how do you come to the conclusion that the vaccine shot is a bad choice? It’s just a dressed up way of saying “we have players who have no intention of being vaccinated.”

Author:	Brick [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
Nardi wrote: Brick wrote: Nardi wrote: This is what I'm concerned about. Penicillin was invented. Now we have super strong bacterium resistant to antibiotics. Why? Because we overprescribed antibiotics for common stuff that one's own body can, 99.97% of the time, can be taken care of b our bodies. Let's not go down that road again with common flu and common colds. Antibiotics, actually bad? That's a new one. Can you read? What does "Let's not go down that road again" mean if it isn't from a belief that it was a mistake?

Author:	Crick Ramp [ Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: More Vaccine Talk
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Brick wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: And again for Brick, I'm not "arguing against" the vaccines. Put whatever you want in your body but stop insisting others do the same. What is the point of the youtube video you shared then? I guess you could say I'm not "arguing for" the vaccine either. The point is there are valid reasons not to take the vaccines. And even if there weren't it's still not dan bernstein's fucking business. This is really what it comes down to. Hell, someone can be pro-vaccine or just truly indifferent and simply not want to take the time to do it. It doesn’t make them irresponsible or a black sheep of society with no redeeming qualities. They just don’t want to.