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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:26 pm 
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IMU wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Jake Arrieta has been on par with, or possibly better than, Chris Sale this year.

Jake Arrieta has a better ERA+, and for the traditionalists, a better W-L.

He is also the MLB leader in BA against and OPS against (by a wide margin. Hendricks is second)

edit: So...off-topic...but Jake Arrieta has only been subpar this year when compared to his historic 2015. He is still great.

Exhibit A.

You're not a baseball guy...but if you were I'd ask you to provide a counter argument since you seem to disagree.

I would like to amend IMU's request by modifying it to read 'pertinent counter argument'.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:30 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
IMU wrote:
edit: So...off-topic...but Jake Arrieta has only been subpar this year when compared to his historic 2015. He is still great.


You're factoring in his first month or two where he was still great. Since then, he hasn't been "great."

I'm factoring in his entire season. Before his last start, he had five starts where he totaled a 2.10 ERA over 34.1 IP for a .486 OPS against and a WHIP of less than 1.00.

He has been streaky all year.

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Last edited by IMU on Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:31 pm 
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IMU wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
IMU wrote:
edit: So...off-topic...but Jake Arrieta has only been subpar this year when compared to his historic 2015. He is still great.


You're factoring in his first month or two where he was still great. Since then, he hasn't been "great."

I'm factoring in his entire season.


Don't be difficult. Rick's already got that trademarked.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:31 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
IMU wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
IMU wrote:
edit: So...off-topic...but Jake Arrieta has only been subpar this year when compared to his historic 2015. He is still great.


You're factoring in his first month or two where he was still great. Since then, he hasn't been "great."

I'm factoring in his entire season.


Don't be difficult. Rick's already got that trademarked.

Read my edit. He has set the bar so high that you judge him too harshly when he is just average over a short period of time. In any large sample size, he is 'great.'

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:34 pm 
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Don Tiny wrote:
IMU wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Jake Arrieta has been on par with, or possibly better than, Chris Sale this year.

Jake Arrieta has a better ERA+, and for the traditionalists, a better W-L.

He is also the MLB leader in BA against and OPS against (by a wide margin. Hendricks is second)

edit: So...off-topic...but Jake Arrieta has only been subpar this year when compared to his historic 2015. He is still great.

Exhibit A.

You're not a baseball guy...but if you were I'd ask you to provide a counter argument since you seem to disagree.

I would like to amend IMU's request by modifying it to read 'pertinent counter argument'.

I'm not going to do a counter argument against one stat being posted and then a statistic the poster believes is meaningless.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:35 pm 
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Trouble counting today?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:43 pm 
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IMU wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
IMU wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
IMU wrote:
edit: So...off-topic...but Jake Arrieta has only been subpar this year when compared to his historic 2015. He is still great.


You're factoring in his first month or two where he was still great. Since then, he hasn't been "great."

I'm factoring in his entire season.


Don't be difficult. Rick's already got that trademarked.

Read my edit. He has set the bar so high that you judge him too harshly when he is just average over a short period of time. In any large sample size, he is 'great.'



There's nuance to these things, dude. Saying he's been "great" this year is misleading, even if his overall body of statistics could be characterized as "great."

Having a couple bad starts is one thing. He's been shaky for months, and we all know that a lot of it is due to control. Dickwad Bernstein read a stat yesterday that Arrieta threw 1/3 his normal amount of sliders in August... presumably because he's having trouble locating (and it has been less effective in general).

I hope Arrieta returns to being great, but he's not currently great. MANY would have him as the 3rd best starter on the team at this moment.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:53 pm 
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Because Lester and Hendricks are also great.

Arrieta can be more consistent. In the last week he was not great. In the three weeks before that he was great. For the season, he has been great.

You're trying too hard to call him anything but great. Yes... for any one game or two he can give up 4 ER.

That happens to EVERY pitcher.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:57 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
it has been less effective in general.

I hope Arrieta returns to being great, but he's not currently great. MANY would have him as the 3rd best starter on the team at this moment.


Still feels like context needs to be added before labeling him ineffective. He is still the second hardest pitcher to hit, gives up the 7th fewest home runs and has the 6th best ERA in baseball. BB's are giving up baserunners, but still few are turning around to score. If he drops the walk rate he goes back to god mode pretty fast. Presently, he is just one of the best pitchers in baseball.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:59 pm 
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IMU wrote:
Trouble counting today?
Ok, so 2 statistics and 2 statistics that supposedly don't matter(BA and Wins). I notice a lot of statistics that you failed to mention that I've seen before.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:01 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
IMU wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Jake Arrieta has been on par with, or possibly better than, Chris Sale this year.

Jake Arrieta has a better ERA+, and for the traditionalists, a better W-L.

He is also the MLB leader in BA against and OPS against (by a wide margin. Hendricks is second)

edit: So...off-topic...but Jake Arrieta has only been subpar this year when compared to his historic 2015. He is still great.

Exhibit A.

You're not a baseball guy...but if you were I'd ask you to provide a counter argument since you seem to disagree.

I would like to amend IMU's request by modifying it to read 'pertinent counter argument'.

I'm not going to do a counter argument against one stat being posted and then a statistic the poster believes is meaningless.

Nor did I figure you would ... I'm just trying to salt the earth to keep this "debate" from growing.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:05 pm 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
What'd he say?


During Thursday evening’s broadcast, White Sox veteran television play-by-play Hawk Harrelson addressed the little-discussed topic of comparing the two third basemen in Chicago.

Simply put, it was peak Hawk Harrelson as he explained how the White Sox’s Todd Frazier stacks up with the Cubs’ Kris Bryant.

“We talk about batting average being one of the most misleading statistics in baseball,” Harrelson said. “Kris Bryant, in the running for (NL) MVP, will probably get a leg up on most guys over there. He’s got 36 home runs and 91 RBIs. And he’s a good third baseman, but you know, he’s not Todd Frazier defensively.

“I’m talking about these two. (Bryant’s) in the running for that MVP. He’s got two more home runs than Todd. He’s got seven seven more RBIs, but he’s hitting 95 points higher. So, batting averages can really be skewed. As I said, with the way Todd shows his leather at third.”

The only dumb thing he said is "batting averages can be skewed", which isn't true. But he never said Frazier is better than Bryant. Nothing to see here

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:14 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Trouble counting today?
Ok, so 2 statistics and 2 statistics that supposedly don't matter(BA and Wins). I notice a lot of statistics that you failed to mention that I've seen before.

Go ahead and pull them up. Arrieta ranks highly in all of them.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:20 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
I don't usually mind Hawk. I like that he's not vanilla and kind of whacked out. That was an embarrassing statement, though. You kinda just have to enjoy his nuttiness and take everything he says with a grain of salt.

Not everyone can be Lenny.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:21 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
What'd he say?


During Thursday evening’s broadcast, White Sox veteran television play-by-play Hawk Harrelson addressed the little-discussed topic of comparing the two third basemen in Chicago.

Simply put, it was peak Hawk Harrelson as he explained how the White Sox’s Todd Frazier stacks up with the Cubs’ Kris Bryant.

“We talk about batting average being one of the most misleading statistics in baseball,” Harrelson said. “Kris Bryant, in the running for (NL) MVP, will probably get a leg up on most guys over there. He’s got 36 home runs and 91 RBIs. And he’s a good third baseman, but you know, he’s not Todd Frazier defensively.

“I’m talking about these two. (Bryant’s) in the running for that MVP. He’s got two more home runs than Todd. He’s got seven seven more RBIs, but he’s hitting 95 points higher. So, batting averages can really be skewed. As I said, with the way Todd shows his leather at third.”

The only dumb thing he said is "batting averages can be skewed", which isn't true. But he never said Frazier is better than Bryant. Nothing to see here


Yes, he did. Listen the audio. If he didn't come out and say it, he directly implied it. Stone was uncomfortable, it was so weird. Stone even tried to deflect to other third basement, and Hawk was like "No, I'm talking between these two."

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:23 pm 
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IMU wrote:
Because Lester and Hendricks are also great.

Arrieta can be more consistent. In the last week he was not great. In the three weeks before that he was great. For the season, he has been great.

You're trying too hard to call him anything but great. Yes... for any one game or two he can give up 4 ER.

That happens to EVERY pitcher.


No, you're trying too hard to call him "great." Great is a pretty high bar. It's okay to admit that your favorite team/players are struggling/have struggled. They're not perfect, and it doesn't make you a bad fan to be okay with that. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:24 pm 
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I state again: Jake Arrieta has been great.

When you're the leader in many statistics, and Top 5 or 10 in essentially all of the others...you're great.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:25 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
What'd he say?


During Thursday evening’s broadcast, White Sox veteran television play-by-play Hawk Harrelson addressed the little-discussed topic of comparing the two third basemen in Chicago.

Simply put, it was peak Hawk Harrelson as he explained how the White Sox’s Todd Frazier stacks up with the Cubs’ Kris Bryant.

“We talk about batting average being one of the most misleading statistics in baseball,” Harrelson said. “Kris Bryant, in the running for (NL) MVP, will probably get a leg up on most guys over there. He’s got 36 home runs and 91 RBIs. And he’s a good third baseman, but you know, he’s not Todd Frazier defensively.

“I’m talking about these two. (Bryant’s) in the running for that MVP. He’s got two more home runs than Todd. He’s got seven seven more RBIs, but he’s hitting 95 points higher. So, batting averages can really be skewed. As I said, with the way Todd shows his leather at third.”

The only dumb thing he said is "batting averages can be skewed", which isn't true. But he never said Frazier is better than Bryant. Nothing to see here


Yes, he did. Listen the audio. If he didn't come out and say it, he directly implied it. Stone was uncomfortable, it was so weird. Stone even tried to deflect to other third basement, and Hawk was like "No, I'm talking between these two."

I don't care enough to look up the audio. It's really not a big deal. I'm just saying, in the transcript Peeps posted, he never said Frazier was better.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:32 pm 
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IMU wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Trouble counting today?
Ok, so 2 statistics and 2 statistics that supposedly don't matter(BA and Wins). I notice a lot of statistics that you failed to mention that I've seen before.

Go ahead and pull them up. Arrieta ranks highly in all of them.
It doesn't matter if he "ranks highly".

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:32 pm 
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Brick gon Brick

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:38 pm 
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IMU wrote:
Jake Arrieta has been on par with, or possibly better than, Chris Sale this year.

Jake Arrieta has a better ERA+, and for the traditionalists, a better W-L.

He is also the MLB leader in BA against and OPS against (by a wide margin. Hendricks is second)

edit: So...off-topic...but Jake Arrieta has only been subpar this year when compared to his historic 2015. He is still great.


Image

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:42 pm 
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lot of Cubs fans listening to Sox broadcasts

put coke bottle glasses on Hawk and we can replay last nights statements after he dies during future seventh inning stretches to cheers

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:44 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
lot of Cubs fans listening to Sox broadcasts

put coke bottle glasses on Hawk and we can replay last nights statements after he dies during future seventh inning stretches to cheers

I don't think anyone here got the information first-hand ... it was replayed on the radio.

Nice effort though ... I guess.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:45 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
lot of Cubs fans listening to Sox broadcasts

put coke bottle glasses on Hawk and we can replay last nights statements after he dies during future seventh inning stretches to cheers


But Harry was talking about Budweiser, seedless watermelon and wishing old ladies a happy birthday. He was a doddering old fool but I don't recall him comparing Tuffy Rhodes to Ken Griffey Jr. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:57 pm 
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
lot of Cubs fans listening to Sox broadcasts

put coke bottle glasses on Hawk and we can replay last nights statements after he dies during future seventh inning stretches to cheers


But Harry was talking about Budweiser, seedless watermelon and wishing old ladies a happy birthday. He was a doddering old fool but I don't recall him comparing Tuffy Rhodes to Ken Griffey Jr. :lol:

:lol:

I think Frazier might be a better comp than Griffey.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:00 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
:lol:

Thanks, Peeps.

Hank Scorpio wrote:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

He's no Frazier at third... Hawk's right. He's better. Bryant isn't even great at third but he's better than Frazier.


Not to mention the fact that Bryant has played four different positions. Also, how can batting average be skewed? I would agree that it can probably be overvalued, but Bryant's average is nearly higher than Frazier's OBP.



Think Kris has played 6 different positions this season, yes Hawk is as dumb as ever.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:19 am 
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IMU wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Jake Arrieta has been on par with, or possibly better than, Chris Sale this year.

Jake Arrieta has a better ERA+, and for the traditionalists, a better W-L.

He is also the MLB leader in BA against and OPS against (by a wide margin. Hendricks is second)

edit: So...off-topic...but Jake Arrieta has only been subpar this year when compared to his historic 2015. He is still great.

Exhibit A.

You're not a baseball guy...but if you were I'd ask you to provide a counter argument since you seem to disagree.
:lol: :lol:

IMU proving who the "baseball guy" is.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:22 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Jake Arrieta has been on par with, or possibly better than, Chris Sale this year.

Jake Arrieta has a better ERA+, and for the traditionalists, a better W-L.

He is also the MLB leader in BA against and OPS against (by a wide margin. Hendricks is second)

edit: So...off-topic...but Jake Arrieta has only been subpar this year when compared to his historic 2015. He is still great.

Exhibit A.

You're not a baseball guy...but if you were I'd ask you to provide a counter argument since you seem to disagree.
:lol: :lol:

IMU proving who the "baseball guy" is.

Everything I had said was true.

You'll notice that post was from 2016. It speaks nothing of 2017, a year in which Chris Sale is outperforming Jake Arrieta by a wide margin.

Your tenacity is to be respected, even if you could hone it in such a fashion where it could be much more effective for you.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:30 am 
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I called that the one season Arrieta was better than Sale was just a fluke and that Sale was a better pitcher. You argued against it over multiple threads which I can also bump if you would like. It was a great call by me and sadly you didn't choose the right side of it. You were blinded by your attempt to skew numbers once again in favor of a Cubs player rather than the fairly obvious. This is like LaHair-Konerko again.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:32 am 
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IMU wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
IMU wrote:
Jake Arrieta has been on par with, or possibly better than, Chris Sale this year.

Jake Arrieta has a better ERA+, and for the traditionalists, a better W-L.

He is also the MLB leader in BA against and OPS against (by a wide margin. Hendricks is second)

edit: So...off-topic...but Jake Arrieta has only been subpar this year when compared to his historic 2015. He is still great.

Exhibit A.

You're not a baseball guy...but if you were I'd ask you to provide a counter argument since you seem to disagree.
:lol: :lol:

IMU proving who the "baseball guy" is.

Everything I had said was true.

You'll notice that post was from 2016. It speaks nothing of 2017, a year in which Chris Sale is outperforming Jake Arrieta by a wide margin.

Your tenacity is to be respected, even if you could hone it in such a fashion where it could be much more effective for you.

Chris Sale was the better pitcher in 2016, too.


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