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Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun
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Author:  WaitingforRuffcorn [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

You can't say only championships matter, yell at callers about it for years, then take this stance:

By Dan Bernstein–
CBSChicago.com senior columnist wrote:

(CBS) Leave it to this continually baffling Bulls team to put critical thinkers in an impossible position. Those always looking for an elusive path out of the basketball wilderness and back to title contention are maddened by their seeming embrace of mediocrity, the chance to tout fleeting success as evidence of something sustainable and reliable, yet keeping them in their commercial sweet spot.

The Bulls say some things and then do others, often based on the whims of the market and the desperation of the decision-makers. Sometimes they win, as much of the time they don’t, and the cycle repeats itself ad infinitum as players and coaches come and go.

Rooting against one’s team is sour for sports fans, but that’s what anybody with a brain was doing as this regular season dripped away, hoping the Bulls could snag a spot in a fertile draft lottery and possibly flipping Jimmy Butler for even more young assets in a real shot at a reboot. Yet they backed into the playoffs and now find themselves in complete control of a Celtics team that outperformed its talent level and is faced with serious mismatches.

And the Bulls are even interesting to watch, with this version of Rajon Rondo who decided to play and coach Fred Hoiberg not throwing handfuls of random bodies on the court, instead sticking with a rotation that seems to have renewed purpose. Whatever it has become, it works better.

I’ve no idea what it means when this is all said and done, and I’m fairly sure nothing that’s occurring in this series is getting the Bulls closer to winning a championship, but it would be silly to want it to fail just because.

If it doesn’t seem to matter anyway, it might as well keep going.

Author:  denisdman [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

It's just a jerk statement:

"Rooting against one’s team is sour for sports fans, but that’s what anybody with a brain was doing as this regular season dripped away,"

So a fan that cheers for his team to win while spending time in front of the tv or money and time at the stadium lacks a brain?

Author:  veganfan21 [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

denisdman wrote:
It's just a jerk statement:

"Rooting against one’s team is sour for sports fans, but that’s what anybody with a brain was doing as this regular season dripped away,"

So a fan that cheers for his team to win while spending time in front of the tv or money and time at the stadium lacks a brain?


It's weird...I have a hard time spending any time or money on a team when they suck. If the Bears are 2-7 next year I can't imagine myself going to Soldier Field and rooting for them to score a TD at the 10:27 mark of the third quarter in a game they're losing by a score of 3-24. And when I look at people who are fully invested in the Bears, even during the third quarter of a game they're losing 3-24 while the record stands at 2-7, I know I'd rather watch paint dry than be in their position at that time, but I'm not going to call them brainless either.

Author:  Douchebag [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

Great show today.

Author:  denisdman [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

Douchebag wrote:
Great show today.


But the Greater Show is on ESPN 1000. See ratings that just came out showing WSCR getting spanked hard in all but the morning slot.

Author:  Joe Orr Road Rod [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

veganfan21 wrote:
I have a hard time spending any time or money on a team when they suck.


That's fine, but that's not really rooting against them. I don't know anyone I consider a fan who would root against his team. How could a fan root against the team? If you do, you're not really a fan, are you?

There are certainly times when I pay less attention to the Sox than others, but it has more to do with the way they suck than simply just them sucking.

What bernstein doesn't seem to grasp is that without real fans who root for their team even when they are bad and watch games in person and on TV when they suck, there wouldn't be a team around for him to watch when they get good. He's like a fucking parasite.

Author:  leashyourkids [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I have a hard time spending any time or money on a team when they suck.


That's fine, but that's not really rooting against them. I don't know anyone I consider a fan who would root against his team. How could a fan root against the team? If you do, you're not really a fan, are you?

There are certainly times when I pay less attention to the Sox than others, but it has more to do with the way they suck than simply just them sucking.

What bernstein doesn't seem to grasp is that without real fans who root for their team even when they are bad and watch games in person and on TV when they suck, there wouldn't be a team around for him to watch when they get good. He's like a fucking parasite.


I didn't read Bernstein's article because I don't want to vomit, but I will occasionally root against my team if they're so bad I just want to kick the TV. The Bears in recent years are an example. 3 or 4 years ago, they pissed me off so much I hoped they lost every game by 70. Unfortunately, last year, it turned into apathy.

Author:  Joe Orr Road Rod [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

leashyourkids wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I have a hard time spending any time or money on a team when they suck.


That's fine, but that's not really rooting against them. I don't know anyone I consider a fan who would root against his team. How could a fan root against the team? If you do, you're not really a fan, are you?

There are certainly times when I pay less attention to the Sox than others, but it has more to do with the way they suck than simply just them sucking.

What bernstein doesn't seem to grasp is that without real fans who root for their team even when they are bad and watch games in person and on TV when they suck, there wouldn't be a team around for him to watch when they get good. He's like a fucking parasite.


I didn't read Bernstein's article because I don't want to vomit, but I will occasionally root against my team if they're so bad I just want to kick the TV. The Bears in recent years are an example. 3 or 4 years ago, they pissed me off so much I hoped they lost every game by 70. Unfortunately, last year, it turned into apathy.



Okay, I guess there are some situations, like late in a season, they may as well lose the rest of them. But if I understand bernstein, he's rooting against "his" team most of the time.

Author:  denisdman [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

I thought it was better if the Bulls lost and missed the playoffs. But every time I turned on a game this year, I cheered for them to win. There is no way I would sit and watch a game and actively cheer against my team.

Author:  ZephMarshack [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I have a hard time spending any time or money on a team when they suck.


That's fine, but that's not really rooting against them. I don't know anyone I consider a fan who would root against his team. How could a fan root against the team? If you do, you're not really a fan, are you?

There are certainly times when I pay less attention to the Sox than others, but it has more to do with the way they suck than simply just them sucking.

What bernstein doesn't seem to grasp is that without real fans who root for their team even when they are bad and watch games in person and on TV when they suck, there wouldn't be a team around for him to watch when they get good. He's like a fucking parasite.

Right. It's a point deBoer's been banging on about for years now, especially when it comes to the Deadspin people. I think the tendency for media types to cast all sports debate as a matter of the enlightened vs drooling idiots is plainly dumb and inaccurate as it is, but this is compounded by the fact that the people who see themselves in the former group often fail to realize it's the people they'd put in the latter group that allow sports leagues to effectively function.

Author:  Ogie Oglethorpe [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

denisdman wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
Great show today.


But the Greater Show is on ESPN 1000. See ratings that just came out showing WSCR getting spanked hard in all but the morning slot.

spanked is an understatement for what WMVP did to WSCR

Author:  veganfan21 [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I have a hard time spending any time or money on a team when they suck.


That's fine, but that's not really rooting against them. I don't know anyone I consider a fan who would root against his team. How could a fan root against the team? If you do, you're not really a fan, are you?

There are certainly times when I pay less attention to the Sox than others, but it has more to do with the way they suck than simply just them sucking.

What bernstein doesn't seem to grasp is that without real fans who root for their team even when they are bad and watch games in person and on TV when they suck, there wouldn't be a team around for him to watch when they get good. He's like a fucking parasite.


This goes back to FF's thread about tanking, though we've obviously discussed that subject numerous times. Pro-tanking and being a fan can be a coherent position - it's merely a fan who takes a long-term perspective on his team. I'll admit to wanting the Bears or Bulls or whomever to lose in order to get a better draft position, or to prompt the firing of a bum coach who otherwise would be extended if the team backed into the playoffs.

I know it works differently in baseball with the draft and all, but hypothetically speaking, if the Sox losing the last game of a 60-something wins season means they're in a better position to draft the next Mike Trout, are you rooting for them to win that game? I'd rather take an embarrassing loss and Mike Trout.

Author:  WaitingforRuffcorn [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

veganfan21 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I have a hard time spending any time or money on a team when they suck.


That's fine, but that's not really rooting against them. I don't know anyone I consider a fan who would root against his team. How could a fan root against the team? If you do, you're not really a fan, are you?

There are certainly times when I pay less attention to the Sox than others, but it has more to do with the way they suck than simply just them sucking.

What bernstein doesn't seem to grasp is that without real fans who root for their team even when they are bad and watch games in person and on TV when they suck, there wouldn't be a team around for him to watch when they get good. He's like a fucking parasite.


This goes back to FF's thread about tanking, though we've obviously discussed that subject numerous times. Pro-tanking and being a fan can be a coherent position - it's merely a fan who takes a long-term perspective on his team. I'll admit to wanting the Bears or Bulls or whomever to lose in order to get a better draft position, or to prompt the firing of a bum coach who otherwise would be extended if the team backed into the playoffs.

I know it works differently in baseball with the draft and all, but hypothetically speaking, if the Sox losing the last game of a 60-something wins season means they're in a better position to draft the next Mike Trout, are you rooting for them to win that game? I'd rather take an embarrassing loss and Mike Trout.


The Bulls signed Wade. They were not bad enough to get a top pick. As fans we should root for them to lose so they have a tiny chance at a top pick? This is not, they are so bad already they mine as well lose.

Author:  Curious Hair [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

The Bulls always get special dispensation from Dan's usual bullshit. Remember, dumb Bulls fans aren't even Bulls fans, they're "just Jordan fans." That way, all Bulls fans are always smart, because Dan is a Bulls fan and he is smart.

Author:  Don Tiny [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

leashyourkids wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I have a hard time spending any time or money on a team when they suck.


That's fine, but that's not really rooting against them. I don't know anyone I consider a fan who would root against his team. How could a fan root against the team? If you do, you're not really a fan, are you?

There are certainly times when I pay less attention to the Sox than others, but it has more to do with the way they suck than simply just them sucking.

What bernstein doesn't seem to grasp is that without real fans who root for their team even when they are bad and watch games in person and on TV when they suck, there wouldn't be a team around for him to watch when they get good. He's like a fucking parasite.


I didn't read Bernstein's article because I don't want to vomit, but I will occasionally root against my team if they're so bad I just want to kick the TV. The Bears in recent years are an example. 3 or 4 years ago, they pissed me off so much I hoped they lost every game by 70. Unfortunately, last year, it turned into apathy.


I think it's possible that the point of his screed is that, well, since you're already outside of the lottery, and it seems like they have a decent shot of winning at least the first round, might as well say 'fuck it' and try to enjoy it while it lasts ... which, whether or not that was his intended message, is something I'm completely on-board with regardless

There's nothing to be gained by them making the playoffs - there's no arguing against that - but, since enough bizarre circumstances put them in there, and did so against one of the worst #1 seeds I can recall offhand, it wouldn't make sense to keep rooting for them to lose (so to speak) as there's little difference imo where they will be in the draft order, so 'fuck it', I'm pleased as punch with them winning as long as they can given the circumstances.

Plus, it seems like they'll be the ones that keep the UC open a little longer. :puker:

Author:  pittmike [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

Don Tiny wrote:
might as well say 'fuck it' and try to enjoy it while it lasts ...


The Bobby Knight fan theory.

Author:  Panther pislA [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

Gave up my season tickets this year and have not regretted it one bit.

Author:  denisdman [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

DT, Danny just has trouble rooting for anything that doesn't ultimately result in a championship and isn't the highest level of sports achievement. Thus his disdain for lower level non-pro sports. But most fans don't think this way. They only see the game in front of them and watch it for entertainment purposes. It's not some epic movement or championship determining game. The fact of the matter is they are watching to enjoy the game and have some rooting interest.

Author:  veganfan21 [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I have a hard time spending any time or money on a team when they suck.


That's fine, but that's not really rooting against them. I don't know anyone I consider a fan who would root against his team. How could a fan root against the team? If you do, you're not really a fan, are you?

There are certainly times when I pay less attention to the Sox than others, but it has more to do with the way they suck than simply just them sucking.

What bernstein doesn't seem to grasp is that without real fans who root for their team even when they are bad and watch games in person and on TV when they suck, there wouldn't be a team around for him to watch when they get good. He's like a fucking parasite.


This goes back to FF's thread about tanking, though we've obviously discussed that subject numerous times. Pro-tanking and being a fan can be a coherent position - it's merely a fan who takes a long-term perspective on his team. I'll admit to wanting the Bears or Bulls or whomever to lose in order to get a better draft position, or to prompt the firing of a bum coach who otherwise would be extended if the team backed into the playoffs.

I know it works differently in baseball with the draft and all, but hypothetically speaking, if the Sox losing the last game of a 60-something wins season means they're in a better position to draft the next Mike Trout, are you rooting for them to win that game? I'd rather take an embarrassing loss and Mike Trout.


The Bulls signed Wade. They were not bad enough to get a top pick. We should as fans root for the to lose so they have a tiny chance at a top pick? This is not, they are so bad already they mine as well lose.


I'm not going to go Bernstein on people by calling them dumb for rooting for the 2016-17 dumbass, slapstick, going-nowhere Chicago Bulls. In basketball I am all about collecting assets, and wherever they ended up in the lottery would have been a better than wherever they're going to end up now after making the playoffs - the lottery pick is an asset you can use to sweeten a deal, or it can even be the centerpiece of a deal. The Rondo and Wade signings representing nothing but management wanting short-term, capped gain (capped since they're not winning a ring), so that's why I opposed them from the start. And while they may be generating excitement now after winning two on the road against Boston, they're still not going anywhere. So the question is would I prefer the short-term fun and excitement caused by a playoff run that's not going to go far, or would I prefer the drudgery of a race to the lottery. I'd pick the lottery every time given those two options.

Author:  Curious Hair [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

Too much NBA fandom is "We need to tank to get a good player in the draft. This is such a terrible draft, there's no one good after about #4." What's the point? It's a sport that's wildly popular around the world and every year it can only produce four new players for the top-flight league and everyone else on a professional trajectory is a stiff?

Author:  Joe Orr Road Rod [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

Don Tiny wrote:
There's nothing to be gained by them making the playoffs - there's no arguing against that -


I think there is. Especially if you're enjoying their 2-0 series lead over the top seed.

Author:  badrogue17 [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

Curious Hair wrote:
Too much NBA fandom is "We need to tank to get a good player in the draft. This is such a terrible draft, there's no one good after about #4." What's the point? It's a sport that's wildly popular around the world and every year it can only produce four new players for the top-flight league and everyone else on a professional trajectory is a stiff?

I've always just distilled it down to it being Grown.Ass.Men. reading mail, drinking coffee and have just tried to appreciate greatness . It's significantly enhanced my understanding and enjoyment of the game .

Author:  leashyourkids [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

Bernstein is a terrible writer. Good thing he's such a great guy IRL.

Honestly, though, the tanking in any sport is bad. Unfortunately, it has kind of become a necessity of some teams if for nothing other than public support. Fans and media get upset when a team dwindles in mediocrity... but the reality is that tanking likely won't lead to success anyway. There's much more to it than getting high draft picks. It happened to work for the Cubs... and it's probably my Cub bias, but I liked it for their situation because they were bad for so long... and it ultimately paid off.

I'm guilty of it myself, but I think the problem is fans who fancy themselves as GM's from playing video games and fantasy sports, and it has become impossible for MANY of us to just live in the moment and root for our team rather than always looking long-term. I don't know if it's fixable at this point, even personally, but it's certainly more fun and carefree to simply be a fan in the moment and not worry about how the team will be in three years. Of course, you couldn't have the attitude that championships are all that matters. If that's the actual belief, then there is nothing philosophically wrong with tanking. But only one team wins the championship each year, so I find that to be a mindset that almost always ends in disappoint and, eventually, apathy.

Author:  veganfan21 [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

leashyourkids wrote:

I'm guilty of it myself, but I think the problem is fans who fancy themselves as GM's from playing video games and fantasy sports, and it has become impossible for MANY of us to just live in the moment and root for our team rather than always looking long-term. I don't know if it's fixable at this point, even personally, but it's certainly more fun and carefree to simply be a fan in the moment and not worry about how the team will be in three years. Of course, you couldn't have the attitude that championships are all that matters. If that's the actual belief, then there is nothing philosophically wrong with tanking. But only one team wins the championship each year, so I find that to be a mindset that almost always ends in disappoint and, eventually, apathy.


This is exactly the tension I feel when wanting the teams to position themselves for future success and then the resulting joyless experience I go through when not caring about the day to day of whichever team because "they're not going anywhere." I certainly enjoyed the 2009 Bulls-Celtics series and I'm enjoying this one as well, but in the end I know the fun is going to stop at some point, and very soon. If you contrast that with the 2010 Bulls against the Heat, the fun I experienced watching the Bulls in the playoffs was amplified by the possibility of them winning it all. Their status as contenders introduced on "on-edge" dynamic to watching them that is simply absent when you watch teams like this year's version do surprising things in the playoffs. I guess it's that kind of fun that I'm looking for when I want them to concede seasons in order to improve their long-term fortunes.

Author:  Joe Orr Road Rod [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

leashyourkids wrote:
I'm guilty of it myself, but I think the problem is fans who fancy themselves as GM's from playing video games and fantasy sports, and it has become impossible for MANY of us to just live in the moment and root for our team rather than always looking long-term.


I don't mean to sound like an old guy shaking his fist, but fans used to root for Mickey and Willie and now they root for Theo and Billy. Enjoy the game however you want. The problem is it's a lot harder to lie to yourself that you're Willie Mays than it is to lie to yourself that you're Theo Epstein. The real truth is you're not close to being either one.

Author:  leashyourkids [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I don't mean to sound like an old guy shaking his fist,


Where has this inhibition been for the last six years?

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
but fans used to root for Mickey and Willie and now they root for Theo and Billy. Enjoy the game however you want. The problem is it's a lot harder to lie to yourself that you're Willie Mays than it is to lie to yourself that you're Theo Epstein. The real truth is you're not close to being either one.


That's my point, old man. Theo could never breed a sow successfully. He probably isn't even allowed to touch them.

Author:  Bagels [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I'm guilty of it myself, but I think the problem is fans who fancy themselves as GM's from playing video games and fantasy sports, and it has become impossible for MANY of us to just live in the moment and root for our team rather than always looking long-term.


I don't mean to sound like an old guy shaking his fist, but fans used to root for Mickey and Willie and now they root for Theo and Billy. Enjoy the game however you want. The problem is it's a lot harder to lie to yourself that you're Willie Mays than it is to lie to yourself that you're Theo Epstein. The real truth is you're not close to being either one.


i think a lot of people (Bernstein for sure) find the process of getting to a championship and all it entails more interesting/fun than the games themselves

Author:  badrogue17 [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

Bagels wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I'm guilty of it myself, but I think the problem is fans who fancy themselves as GM's from playing video games and fantasy sports, and it has become impossible for MANY of us to just live in the moment and root for our team rather than always looking long-term.


I don't mean to sound like an old guy shaking his fist, but fans used to root for Mickey and Willie and now they root for Theo and Billy. Enjoy the game however you want. The problem is it's a lot harder to lie to yourself that you're Willie Mays than it is to lie to yourself that you're Theo Epstein. The real truth is you're not close to being either one.


i think a lot of people (Bernstein for sure) find the process of getting to a championship and all it entails more interesting/fun than the games themselves

You can put Elmhurst Steve in that crowd too.

Author:  Joe Orr Road Rod [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

Bagels wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I'm guilty of it myself, but I think the problem is fans who fancy themselves as GM's from playing video games and fantasy sports, and it has become impossible for MANY of us to just live in the moment and root for our team rather than always looking long-term.


I don't mean to sound like an old guy shaking his fist, but fans used to root for Mickey and Willie and now they root for Theo and Billy. Enjoy the game however you want. The problem is it's a lot harder to lie to yourself that you're Willie Mays than it is to lie to yourself that you're Theo Epstein. The real truth is you're not close to being either one.


i think a lot of people (Bernstein for sure) find the process of getting to a championship and all it entails more interesting/fun than the games themselves



Like I said, whatever floats your boat. Personally, the only time I root for an accountant is when he's filling out my tax return.

Author:  Don Tiny [ Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Only Championships Matter... unless it's fun

denisdman wrote:
DT, Danny just has trouble rooting for anything that doesn't ultimately result in a championship and isn't the highest level of sports achievement. Thus his disdain for lower level non-pro sports. But most fans don't think this way. They only see the game in front of them and watch it for entertainment purposes. It's not some epic movement or championship determining game. The fact of the matter is they are watching to enjoy the game and have some rooting interest.

To your point about Daniel, I don't have much doubt that's accurate ... still, I contend my take was essentially what his point was, even if his 'disdain' noted above infected his write-up.

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