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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:55 pm 
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I really enjoyed that 2009 Boston series and the run to the Eastern Conference Finals with Rose. Neither resulted in titles, but if hanging a banner is the only thing that matters in sports it means I am not going to give a shit 80 percent of the time. That's not healthy for the league. And as far as I see it all but three teams should be tanking because I doubt anyone is going to beat Golden State (Cleveland and San Antonio have a chance).

As for this year's Bulls if they make it to the Eastern Conference Finals it will have made signing Wade more than worth it. Entertaining playoff basketball vs. what Philadelphia has been for the past 5 years. Not really a difficult choice.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:59 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I have a hard time spending any time or money on a team when they suck.


That's fine, but that's not really rooting against them. I don't know anyone I consider a fan who would root against his team. How could a fan root against the team? If you do, you're not really a fan, are you?

There are certainly times when I pay less attention to the Sox than others, but it has more to do with the way they suck than simply just them sucking.

What bernstein doesn't seem to grasp is that without real fans who root for their team even when they are bad and watch games in person and on TV when they suck, there wouldn't be a team around for him to watch when they get good. He's like a fucking parasite.


This goes back to FF's thread about tanking, though we've obviously discussed that subject numerous times. Pro-tanking and being a fan can be a coherent position - it's merely a fan who takes a long-term perspective on his team. I'll admit to wanting the Bears or Bulls or whomever to lose in order to get a better draft position, or to prompt the firing of a bum coach who otherwise would be extended if the team backed into the playoffs.

I know it works differently in baseball with the draft and all, but hypothetically speaking, if the Sox losing the last game of a 60-something wins season means they're in a better position to draft the next Mike Trout, are you rooting for them to win that game? I'd rather take an embarrassing loss and Mike Trout.


The Bulls signed Wade. They were not bad enough to get a top pick. We should as fans root for the to lose so they have a tiny chance at a top pick? This is not, they are so bad already they mine as well lose.


I'm not going to go Bernstein on people by calling them dumb for rooting for the 2016-17 dumbass, slapstick, going-nowhere Chicago Bulls. In basketball I am all about collecting assets, and wherever they ended up in the lottery would have been a better than wherever they're going to end up now after making the playoffs - the lottery pick is an asset you can use to sweeten a deal, or it can even be the centerpiece of a deal. The Rondo and Wade signings representing nothing but management wanting short-term, capped gain (capped since they're not winning a ring), so that's why I opposed them from the start. And while they may be generating excitement now after winning two on the road against Boston, they're still not going anywhere. So the question is would I prefer the short-term fun and excitement caused by a playoff run that's not going to go far, or would I prefer the drudgery of a race to the lottery. I'd pick the lottery every time given those two options.

They have the 16th pick in the draft. That is not going to change no matter how far they advance this postseason. If they lost that last game to the Nets and missed the playoffs, there is a 99% chance they would have the 14th pick. That's not really a significant upgrade asset wise.

Your fandom befuddles me more than anyone else's here. The vast majority of the time you don't even seem to like the Bulls or want them to be successful, but you claim to be a Bulls fan. I honestly believe you would be annoyed if they somehow pulled off a huge miracle and won the title this year.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:00 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
There's nothing to be gained by them making the playoffs - there's no arguing against that -


I think there is. Especially if you're enjoying their 2-0 series lead over the top seed.

:lol:

Right. It's funny that people get so into sports analysis they miss the most basic aspects of sports fandom.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:12 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
DT, Danny just has trouble rooting for anything that doesn't ultimately result in a championship and isn't the highest level of sports achievement. Thus his disdain for lower level non-pro sports. But most fans don't think this way. They only see the game in front of them and watch it for entertainment purposes. It's not some epic movement or championship determining game. The fact of the matter is they are watching to enjoy the game and have some rooting interest.


I guess it's also useful to make a distinction between fans who invest time in "following" teams, like I assume most do here, and casual fans. I can see the casual fan only seeing "the game in front of them and watch[ing] it for entertainment purposes." But for the more committed fan, you retain rooting interest even if you want the team to lose in the short-term in order to set yourself up for a bigger payday down the road.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:17 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
denisdman wrote:
DT, Danny just has trouble rooting for anything that doesn't ultimately result in a championship and isn't the highest level of sports achievement. Thus his disdain for lower level non-pro sports. But most fans don't think this way. They only see the game in front of them and watch it for entertainment purposes. It's not some epic movement or championship determining game. The fact of the matter is they are watching to enjoy the game and have some rooting interest.


I guess it's also useful to make a distinction between fans who invest time in "following" teams, like I assume most do here, and casual fans. I can see the casual fan only seeing "the game in front of them and watch[ing] it for entertainment purposes." But for the more committed fan, you retain rooting interest even if you want the team to lose in the short-term in order to set yourself up for a bigger payday down the road.


But that doesn't even come to fruition in most cases. If the Bulls could some how manage to win the East and then lose to Golden State or San Antonio 4-0 that's likely to be a better season than they're going to have anytime in the near future with whatever great draft pick you want to fantasize they might get.

I think this stuff becomes clearer the older you get. I don't have as many seasons to waste as you do. jimmypasta went 108 years without one. Thank God Theo Epstein came along to win one for him before he dies.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:20 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

I think this stuff becomes clearer the older you get. I don't have as many seasons to waste as you do. jimmypasta went 108 years without one. Thank God Theo Epstein came along to win one for him before he dies.

Again .

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:23 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I have a hard time spending any time or money on a team when they suck.


That's fine, but that's not really rooting against them. I don't know anyone I consider a fan who would root against his team. How could a fan root against the team? If you do, you're not really a fan, are you?

There are certainly times when I pay less attention to the Sox than others, but it has more to do with the way they suck than simply just them sucking.

What bernstein doesn't seem to grasp is that without real fans who root for their team even when they are bad and watch games in person and on TV when they suck, there wouldn't be a team around for him to watch when they get good. He's like a fucking parasite.


This goes back to FF's thread about tanking, though we've obviously discussed that subject numerous times. Pro-tanking and being a fan can be a coherent position - it's merely a fan who takes a long-term perspective on his team. I'll admit to wanting the Bears or Bulls or whomever to lose in order to get a better draft position, or to prompt the firing of a bum coach who otherwise would be extended if the team backed into the playoffs.

I know it works differently in baseball with the draft and all, but hypothetically speaking, if the Sox losing the last game of a 60-something wins season means they're in a better position to draft the next Mike Trout, are you rooting for them to win that game? I'd rather take an embarrassing loss and Mike Trout.


The Bulls signed Wade. They were not bad enough to get a top pick. We should as fans root for the to lose so they have a tiny chance at a top pick? This is not, they are so bad already they mine as well lose.


I'm not going to go Bernstein on people by calling them dumb for rooting for the 2016-17 dumbass, slapstick, going-nowhere Chicago Bulls. In basketball I am all about collecting assets, and wherever they ended up in the lottery would have been a better than wherever they're going to end up now after making the playoffs - the lottery pick is an asset you can use to sweeten a deal, or it can even be the centerpiece of a deal. The Rondo and Wade signings representing nothing but management wanting short-term, capped gain (capped since they're not winning a ring), so that's why I opposed them from the start. And while they may be generating excitement now after winning two on the road against Boston, they're still not going anywhere. So the question is would I prefer the short-term fun and excitement caused by a playoff run that's not going to go far, or would I prefer the drudgery of a race to the lottery. I'd pick the lottery every time given those two options.

They have the 16th pick in the draft. That is not going to change no matter how far they advance this postseason. If they lost that last game to the Nets and missed the playoffs, there is a 99% chance they would have the 14th pick. That's not really a significant upgrade asset wise.

Your fandom befuddles me more than anyone else's here. The vast majority of the time you don't even seem to like the Bulls or want them to be successful, but you claim to be a Bulls fan. I honestly believe you would be annoyed if they somehow pulled off a huge miracle and won the title this year.


You only wanted the Bulls to make the playoffs because you'd make $200 off of DB. I'd like to assess the quality of your "fandom" when you don't stand to monetarily gain from their short-term success. Have you staked out a spot in Grant Park yet for the Bulls impending championship parade? I heard Paul Zipser and Cameron Payne are planning an epic dance off.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:25 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
denisdman wrote:
DT, Danny just has trouble rooting for anything that doesn't ultimately result in a championship and isn't the highest level of sports achievement. Thus his disdain for lower level non-pro sports. But most fans don't think this way. They only see the game in front of them and watch it for entertainment purposes. It's not some epic movement or championship determining game. The fact of the matter is they are watching to enjoy the game and have some rooting interest.


I guess it's also useful to make a distinction between fans who invest time in "following" teams, like I assume most do here, and casual fans. I can see the casual fan only seeing "the game in front of them and watch[ing] it for entertainment purposes." But for the more committed fan, you retain rooting interest even if you want the team to lose in the short-term in order to set yourself up for a bigger payday down the road.


But that doesn't even come to fruition in most cases. If the Bulls could some how manage to win the East and then lose to Golden State or San Antonio 4-0 that's likely to be a better season than they're going to have anytime in the near future with whatever great draft pick you want to fantasize they might get.

It's also going to set them up much better for future success if you actually think about it. They never had a chance of getting a top 10 pick this year. The difference between the 14th and 16th picks is as negligible as it gets. The difference between being a respected team that competes in the playoffs and has a star in Jimmy Butler and being a tanking mess of an organization is significant. Free agents don't want to come help rebuild a team. They want to team up with other stars and win titles. We already have one of those stars in place, and they are very hard to acquire. One more and we're good to go.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:26 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
denisdman wrote:
DT, Danny just has trouble rooting for anything that doesn't ultimately result in a championship and isn't the highest level of sports achievement. Thus his disdain for lower level non-pro sports. But most fans don't think this way. They only see the game in front of them and watch it for entertainment purposes. It's not some epic movement or championship determining game. The fact of the matter is they are watching to enjoy the game and have some rooting interest.


I guess it's also useful to make a distinction between fans who invest time in "following" teams, like I assume most do here, and casual fans. I can see the casual fan only seeing "the game in front of them and watch[ing] it for entertainment purposes." But for the more committed fan, you retain rooting interest even if you want the team to lose in the short-term in order to set yourself up for a bigger payday down the road.


I am a huge fan- Cubs, Hawks, Bears, Bulls in that order. When I turn on a game for any of those teams, I want to see them win. But I defended the Plan as much as anyone on this board. And even as I did, I wanted the Cubs to win every game I watched. I am able to enjoy the immediate "gain" from a victory while understanding the long term health of a franchise. I thought the Bulls were foolish to sign Wade. But while he's on the Bulls, I am going to cheer for him. I will be cheering for the Hawks tonight even as I want that misery to end.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:26 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
That's fine, but that's not really rooting against them. I don't know anyone I consider a fan who would root against his team. How could a fan root against the team? If you do, you're not really a fan, are you?

There are certainly times when I pay less attention to the Sox than others, but it has more to do with the way they suck than simply just them sucking.

What bernstein doesn't seem to grasp is that without real fans who root for their team even when they are bad and watch games in person and on TV when they suck, there wouldn't be a team around for him to watch when they get good. He's like a fucking parasite.


This goes back to FF's thread about tanking, though we've obviously discussed that subject numerous times. Pro-tanking and being a fan can be a coherent position - it's merely a fan who takes a long-term perspective on his team. I'll admit to wanting the Bears or Bulls or whomever to lose in order to get a better draft position, or to prompt the firing of a bum coach who otherwise would be extended if the team backed into the playoffs.

I know it works differently in baseball with the draft and all, but hypothetically speaking, if the Sox losing the last game of a 60-something wins season means they're in a better position to draft the next Mike Trout, are you rooting for them to win that game? I'd rather take an embarrassing loss and Mike Trout.


The Bulls signed Wade. They were not bad enough to get a top pick. We should as fans root for the to lose so they have a tiny chance at a top pick? This is not, they are so bad already they mine as well lose.


I'm not going to go Bernstein on people by calling them dumb for rooting for the 2016-17 dumbass, slapstick, going-nowhere Chicago Bulls. In basketball I am all about collecting assets, and wherever they ended up in the lottery would have been a better than wherever they're going to end up now after making the playoffs - the lottery pick is an asset you can use to sweeten a deal, or it can even be the centerpiece of a deal. The Rondo and Wade signings representing nothing but management wanting short-term, capped gain (capped since they're not winning a ring), so that's why I opposed them from the start. And while they may be generating excitement now after winning two on the road against Boston, they're still not going anywhere. So the question is would I prefer the short-term fun and excitement caused by a playoff run that's not going to go far, or would I prefer the drudgery of a race to the lottery. I'd pick the lottery every time given those two options.

They have the 16th pick in the draft. That is not going to change no matter how far they advance this postseason. If they lost that last game to the Nets and missed the playoffs, there is a 99% chance they would have the 14th pick. That's not really a significant upgrade asset wise.

Your fandom befuddles me more than anyone else's here. The vast majority of the time you don't even seem to like the Bulls or want them to be successful, but you claim to be a Bulls fan. I honestly believe you would be annoyed if they somehow pulled off a huge miracle and won the title this year.


You only wanted the Bulls to make the playoffs because you'd make $200 off of DB. I'd like to assess the quality of your "fandom" when you don't stand to monetarily gain from their short-term success. Have you staked out a spot in Grant Park yet for the Bulls impending championship parade? I heard Paul Zipser and Cameron Payne are planning an epic dance off.

The money was just a bonus. I always root for my team. It's what sports fans do.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:27 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
There's nothing to be gained by them making the playoffs - there's no arguing against that -


I think there is. Especially if you're enjoying their 2-0 series lead over the top seed.

:lol:

Right. It's funny that people get so into sports analysis they miss the most basic aspects of sports fandom.


The team gains nothing ... I don't believe that either of you are too dim to have known what my assertion referred to. I could be wrong about that though ... it's happened a handful of times previously on other topics.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:30 pm 
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Don Tiny wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
There's nothing to be gained by them making the playoffs - there's no arguing against that -


I think there is. Especially if you're enjoying their 2-0 series lead over the top seed.

:lol:

Right. It's funny that people get so into sports analysis they miss the most basic aspects of sports fandom.


The team gains nothing ... I don't believe that either of you are too dim to have known what my assertion referred to. I could be wrong about that though ... it's happened a handful of times previously on other topics.

If the Bulls make the Eastern Conference Finals you don't think that changes the way potential free agents view them vs how they viewed them two weeks ago? I definitely do. I think there is a lot to be gained for the Bulls as an organization in the next few weeks. It's up to them to go get it. The talent is there.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:32 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
The difference between being a respected team that competes in the playoffs and has a star in Jimmy Butler and being a tanking mess of an organization is significant. Free agents don't want to come help rebuild a team. They want to team up with other stars and win titles.


:lol: so now this organization with GarPax and Hoiberg at the helm is a respected team ? I know it's 4/20 today and you're likely experiencing short term memory loss, but my god


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:33 pm 
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Bagels wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
The difference between being a respected team that competes in the playoffs and has a star in Jimmy Butler and being a tanking mess of an organization is significant. Free agents don't want to come help rebuild a team. They want to team up with other stars and win titles.


:lol: so now this organization with GarPax and Hoiberg at the helm is a respected team ? I know it's 4/20 today and you're likely experiencing short term memory loss, but my god

Not yet. Once they win the title this year they will be.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:36 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
There's nothing to be gained by them making the playoffs - there's no arguing against that -


I think there is. Especially if you're enjoying their 2-0 series lead over the top seed.

:lol:

Right. It's funny that people get so into sports analysis they miss the most basic aspects of sports fandom.


The team gains nothing ... I don't believe that either of you are too dim to have known what my assertion referred to. I could be wrong about that though ... it's happened a handful of times previously on other topics.

If the Bulls make the Eastern Conference Finals you don't think that changes the way potential free agents view them vs how they viewed them two weeks ago? I definitely do. I think there is a lot to be gained for the Bulls as an organization in the next few weeks. It's up to them to go get it. The talent is there.

That's a pretty big g-damned "if", Chumley. It sure as hell isn't something you expect prior to the playoffs either, so arguing after the fact what someone should typically think about a situation is basically cheating, for lack of a better word.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Don Tiny wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
There's nothing to be gained by them making the playoffs - there's no arguing against that -


I think there is. Especially if you're enjoying their 2-0 series lead over the top seed.

:lol:

Right. It's funny that people get so into sports analysis they miss the most basic aspects of sports fandom.


The team gains nothing ... I don't believe that either of you are too dim to have known what my assertion referred to. I could be wrong about that though ... it's happened a handful of times previously on other topics.


The team gains a chance for a very successful season. That is, unless you measure success by championships only and think every other team is an equal loser. That seems a popular viewpoint these days.

I'm not a Bulls fan, but if I were, taking out the number one seed in the East is a good season already and then we can go from there.

To me it's sort of like there's a modern obsession with always being at the next place instead of living in the moment.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:43 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I'm guilty of it myself, but I think the problem is fans who fancy themselves as GM's from playing video games and fantasy sports, and it has become impossible for MANY of us to just live in the moment and root for our team rather than always looking long-term.


I don't mean to sound like an old guy shaking his fist, but fans used to root for Mickey and Willie and now they root for Theo and Billy. Enjoy the game however you want. The problem is it's a lot harder to lie to yourself that you're Willie Mays than it is to lie to yourself that you're Theo Epstein. The real truth is you're not close to being either one.

I think this is still more media driven than fan driven to be honest. Michael Brendan Dougherty wrote about it a while ago:
Quote:
But there's only so much that this new crop of sports writers can truly identify with in the players they admire. Socially cosseted with other journalists, liberal sports writers increasingly identify with the only set of actors in the sports world that come from a cultural milieu relatable to their own: the new class of rationalizing, brainy executives. In another generation, sports writers dreamed futilely of being Willie Mays or Gordie Howe. Now they want to be Houston Rockets general manager Daryl Morey. And their copy and concerns increasingly seem to be written for each other and for these analytics-loving general managers.

Quote:
The pattern of over-identifying with general managers is endemic to liberal sports journalism, and the not-so-secret truth is that liberal sportswriters increasingly hold the culture that produces athletes and their fans in contempt, or even find it dangerous and threatening. Fans are treated as a distracting nuisance, in thrall to their tribal affinities and over-invested in homegrown players or even in winning itself. How quaint.

The culture of athletes is treated as alien and toxic, a kind of pit in which womanizing bros, aggressive rageaholics, and icky religious freaks are allowed to flourish and enjoy a high income and status that would be justly denied to people who act and think in this way in any other profession. When macho athletes like Yasiel Puig are profiled, it is often in a superficial way in which their background is mined for all political resonance and dramatic tension, but the actual personality is carefully obscured. Athletes are famously hard to get to know, but sportswriters often just seem incapable of getting their head into a macho, competitive, aggressive culture. And sometimes, sports writers seem to be appealing to the general manager or team HR departments to enforce liberal norms on their highly paid assets.

The smaller portion of athletes who happen to share cultural affinities or political commitments with liberal sports writers are given glowing, intimate, get-to-know-you portraits. Stories like "How Philadelphia Eagles linebacker Connor Barwin — a bike-riding, socially conscious, Animal Collective-loving hipster — is redefining what it means to be a football player." I wonder if there was a follow-up asking all other football players whether they were redefined by Barwin's presence. It's notable that journalists who do seem to get along with average athletes, like Bill Simmons or even Stephen A. Smith, are treated with a little bit of suspicion by the rest of the sports writer tribe.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:44 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
There's nothing to be gained by them making the playoffs - there's no arguing against that -


I think there is. Especially if you're enjoying their 2-0 series lead over the top seed.

:lol:

Right. It's funny that people get so into sports analysis they miss the most basic aspects of sports fandom.


The team gains nothing ... I don't believe that either of you are too dim to have known what my assertion referred to. I could be wrong about that though ... it's happened a handful of times previously on other topics.


The team gains a chance for a very successful season. That is, unless you measure success by championships only and think every other team is an equal loser. That seems a popular viewpoint these days.

I'm not a Bulls fan, but if I were, taking out the number one seed in the East is a good season already and then we can go from there.

To me it's sort of like there's a modern obsession with always being at the next place instead of living in the moment.

A snowball's chance at best. What does getting to or through the second round this year actually net :D them exactly?

No free agent thinks the Bulls are a good/great team if they beat Boston. Idiots like us know full well that Boston is a 5-6 seed masquerading as a #1 - you don't think "basketball people" don't know this and adjust their opinions of the Bulls accordingly?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:44 pm 
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Don Tiny wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
There's nothing to be gained by them making the playoffs - there's no arguing against that -


I think there is. Especially if you're enjoying their 2-0 series lead over the top seed.

:lol:

Right. It's funny that people get so into sports analysis they miss the most basic aspects of sports fandom.


The team gains nothing ... I don't believe that either of you are too dim to have known what my assertion referred to. I could be wrong about that though ... it's happened a handful of times previously on other topics.

If the Bulls make the Eastern Conference Finals you don't think that changes the way potential free agents view them vs how they viewed them two weeks ago? I definitely do. I think there is a lot to be gained for the Bulls as an organization in the next few weeks. It's up to them to go get it. The talent is there.

That's a pretty big g-damned "if", Chumley. It sure as hell isn't something you expect prior to the playoffs either, so arguing after the fact what someone should typically think about a situation is basically cheating, for lack of a better word.

It's not a big if at all. They are six wins away from doing it right now. And I did see it happening;

viewtopic.php?f=91&t=106026#p2697369

Like I said in that thread, it was a biased pick because I like the Bulls, but it was a realistic scenario heading into the playoffs. I didn't have them winning the title because I wanted to keep it realistic.

They had the 3rd best rebounding team in the NBA. They have one of the 8-10 best players in the NBA. Those two things were always going to make them a tough out for any team facing them.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:01 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
I have a hard time spending any time or money on a team when they suck.


That's fine, but that's not really rooting against them. I don't know anyone I consider a fan who would root against his team. How could a fan root against the team? If you do, you're not really a fan, are you?

There are certainly times when I pay less attention to the Sox than others, but it has more to do with the way they suck than simply just them sucking.

What bernstein doesn't seem to grasp is that without real fans who root for their team even when they are bad and watch games in person and on TV when they suck, there wouldn't be a team around for him to watch when they get good. He's like a fucking parasite.

Right. It's a point deBoer's been banging on about for years now, especially when it comes to the Deadspin people. I think the tendency for media types to cast all sports debate as a matter of the enlightened vs drooling idiots is plainly dumb and inaccurate as it is, but this is compounded by the fact that the people who see themselves in the former group often fail to realize it's the people they'd put in the latter group that allow sports leagues to effectively function.

That's a great article

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:12 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
denisdman wrote:
DT, Danny just has trouble rooting for anything that doesn't ultimately result in a championship and isn't the highest level of sports achievement. Thus his disdain for lower level non-pro sports. But most fans don't think this way. They only see the game in front of them and watch it for entertainment purposes. It's not some epic movement or championship determining game. The fact of the matter is they are watching to enjoy the game and have some rooting interest.


I guess it's also useful to make a distinction between fans who invest time in "following" teams, like I assume most do here, and casual fans. I can see the casual fan only seeing "the game in front of them and watch[ing] it for entertainment purposes." But for the more committed fan, you retain rooting interest even if you want the team to lose in the short-term in order to set yourself up for a bigger payday down the road.


But that doesn't even come to fruition in most cases. If the Bulls could some how manage to win the East and then lose to Golden State or San Antonio 4-0 that's likely to be a better season than they're going to have anytime in the near future with whatever great draft pick you want to fantasize they might get.

I think this stuff becomes clearer the older you get. I don't have as many seasons to waste as you do. jimmypasta went 108 years without one. Thank God Theo Epstein came along to win one for him before he dies.


Was the core of the 2016 Cubs team a fantasy? What about a core of Durant Westbrook, and Harden? Tim Duncan to San Antonio? I also trust you realize​ the irony of not wanting to waste seasons while praising Theo Epstein for winning JP a championship.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:14 pm 
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The core of Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid is a fantasy :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:17 pm 
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Can we stop having vegan use that avatar? The juxtaposition of that picture with coherent sentences is scrambling my brain.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:17 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
denisdman wrote:
DT, Danny just has trouble rooting for anything that doesn't ultimately result in a championship and isn't the highest level of sports achievement. Thus his disdain for lower level non-pro sports. But most fans don't think this way. They only see the game in front of them and watch it for entertainment purposes. It's not some epic movement or championship determining game. The fact of the matter is they are watching to enjoy the game and have some rooting interest.


I guess it's also useful to make a distinction between fans who invest time in "following" teams, like I assume most do here, and casual fans. I can see the casual fan only seeing "the game in front of them and watch[ing] it for entertainment purposes." But for the more committed fan, you retain rooting interest even if you want the team to lose in the short-term in order to set yourself up for a bigger payday down the road.


But that doesn't even come to fruition in most cases. If the Bulls could some how manage to win the East and then lose to Golden State or San Antonio 4-0 that's likely to be a better season than they're going to have anytime in the near future with whatever great draft pick you want to fantasize they might get.

I think this stuff becomes clearer the older you get. I don't have as many seasons to waste as you do. jimmypasta went 108 years without one. Thank God Theo Epstein came along to win one for him before he dies.


Was the core of the 2016 Cubs team a fantasy? What about a core of Durant Westbrook, and Harden? Tim Duncan to San Antonio? I also trust you realize​ the irony of not wanting to waste seasons while praising Theo Epstein for winning JP a championship.


Did OKC tank to get Durant, Westbook and Harden? San Antonio lucked into Duncan. Tanking in the NBA has not worked.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:25 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
denisdman wrote:
DT, Danny just has trouble rooting for anything that doesn't ultimately result in a championship and isn't the highest level of sports achievement. Thus his disdain for lower level non-pro sports. But most fans don't think this way. They only see the game in front of them and watch it for entertainment purposes. It's not some epic movement or championship determining game. The fact of the matter is they are watching to enjoy the game and have some rooting interest.


I guess it's also useful to make a distinction between fans who invest time in "following" teams, like I assume most do here, and casual fans. I can see the casual fan only seeing "the game in front of them and watch[ing] it for entertainment purposes." But for the more committed fan, you retain rooting interest even if you want the team to lose in the short-term in order to set yourself up for a bigger payday down the road.


But that doesn't even come to fruition in most cases. If the Bulls could some how manage to win the East and then lose to Golden State or San Antonio 4-0 that's likely to be a better season than they're going to have anytime in the near future with whatever great draft pick you want to fantasize they might get.

I think this stuff becomes clearer the older you get. I don't have as many seasons to waste as you do. jimmypasta went 108 years without one. Thank God Theo Epstein came along to win one for him before he dies.


Was the core of the 2016 Cubs team a fantasy? What about a core of Durant Westbrook, and Harden? Tim Duncan to San Antonio? I also trust you realize​ the irony of not wanting to waste seasons while praising Theo Epstein for winning JP a championship.


Did OKC tank to get Durant, Westbook and Harden? San Antonio lucked into Duncan. Tanking in the NBA has not worked.


Admittedly it's a crapshoot in the NBA. But if you're in the lottery you have a better chance at grabbing top prospects than you do if you finish with 41 wins every year and maybe a feel-good, try-hard series against a top seed in which you take them to seven games in the first round every now and then. Here's a breakdown of teams I'd like to see the Bulls become in future and how (free agents or draft) they got there:.

Spurs (draft)
Thunder (draft)
Heat (free agents)
Warriors (draft)
Cavs (mix)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:28 pm 
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The Spurs have used the draft but they never tanked, outside maybe the one season where Robinson got hurt for the year and they got Duncan. Nobody on the current roster is the result of tanking.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:29 pm 
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Don Tiny wrote:
What does getting to or through the second round this year actually net :D them exactly?


It gets them through the second round which is better than missing the playoffs.

I guess I don't understand your philosophy here.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:32 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
denisdman wrote:
DT, Danny just has trouble rooting for anything that doesn't ultimately result in a championship and isn't the highest level of sports achievement. Thus his disdain for lower level non-pro sports. But most fans don't think this way. They only see the game in front of them and watch it for entertainment purposes. It's not some epic movement or championship determining game. The fact of the matter is they are watching to enjoy the game and have some rooting interest.


I guess it's also useful to make a distinction between fans who invest time in "following" teams, like I assume most do here, and casual fans. I can see the casual fan only seeing "the game in front of them and watch[ing] it for entertainment purposes." But for the more committed fan, you retain rooting interest even if you want the team to lose in the short-term in order to set yourself up for a bigger payday down the road.


But that doesn't even come to fruition in most cases. If the Bulls could some how manage to win the East and then lose to Golden State or San Antonio 4-0 that's likely to be a better season than they're going to have anytime in the near future with whatever great draft pick you want to fantasize they might get.

I think this stuff becomes clearer the older you get. I don't have as many seasons to waste as you do. jimmypasta went 108 years without one. Thank God Theo Epstein came along to win one for him before he dies.


Was the core of the 2016 Cubs team a fantasy? What about a core of Durant Westbrook, and Harden? Tim Duncan to San Antonio? I also trust you realize​ the irony of not wanting to waste seasons while praising Theo Epstein for winning JP a championship.


What did Westbrook, Durant, and Harden win? Did I miss that one?

Epstein is the whole point. He's the only guy who tanked his way to a championship.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:33 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
The Spurs have used the draft but they never tanked, outside maybe the one season where Robinson got hurt for the year and they got Duncan. Nobody on the current roster is the result of tanking.



That's true, and I wouldn't call my position pro-tanking per se. I do see the value in trying to win as many games as you can with a young and developing core, even if that core isn't going to get you anywhere..yet. But I also am absolutely against something like what the Bulls did this year in randomly signing Rondo and Wade to ensure exactly what we're seeing: a mediocre team winning by relying on past their prime free agents who won't be around next year or maybe the year after. This team isn't any good, has a short shelf life even if they're any good, and has nothing to build around because you've invested in players who aren't going to be around in a couple years.

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Last edited by veganfan21 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:34 pm 
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Veganfan, do you want to see the Bulls win the title this season?

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