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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:14 pm 
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B&G are kicking Morgan around because he doesn't want steroid people in the HOF.

Hey Joe, they're already in - Bagwell, Piazza and Pudge. You should have wrote your letter before these guys got in.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:27 pm 
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Senor evolved on steroids.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Senor evolved on steroids.


Dad do you think Victor Conte is coming to get us ?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:35 pm 
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Yesterday, Goff gave a rundown of the list of nominees this year. Senor was supposed to answer either "Yes" "No" or "Legitimate Debate" on whether they should be in. I remember Senor used to ask Terry that when the list came out. I was looking forward to the segment, but Senor is such an asshat, and he got all uppity because he kept throwing his personal biases in there and mentioned Jim Rice about 50 times. Goff and Shep were getting annoyed with him. And of course he doesn't want Schilling in there because he's a dirty conservative.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:38 pm 
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Morgan wrote:
Please keep in mind I don't speak for every member of the Hall of Fame. I don't know how everyone feels, but I do know how MANY of the Hall of Famers feel.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:19 pm 
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newper wrote:
Morgan wrote:
Please keep in mind I don't speak for every member of the Hall of Fame. I don't know how everyone feels, but I do know how MANY of the Hall of Famers feel.

I haven't heard any of that. I didn't hear all of it. I heard a lot about most of it, but what I did hear, I did not hear any of that.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:42 pm 
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SuperMario wrote:
Yesterday, Goff gave a rundown of the list of nominees this year. Senor was supposed to answer either "Yes" "No" or "Legitimate Debate" on whether they should be in. I remember Senor used to ask Terry that when the list came out. I was looking forward to the segment, but Senor is such an asshat, and he got all uppity because he kept throwing his personal biases in there and mentioned Jim Rice about 50 times. Goff and Shep were getting annoyed with him. And of course he doesn't want Schilling in there because he's a dirty conservative.


Ah, the old "Morality Clause" coming to Dan's aid, I'll bet? Which Senor railed against when it was used to keep suspected PED-users out of the Hall for the longest time?

Wasn't it Dan who incredulously remarked something about "You've already got racists and philanderers and gamblers and wife beaters in there" or something like that?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:28 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
SuperMario wrote:
Yesterday, Goff gave a rundown of the list of nominees this year. Senor was supposed to answer either "Yes" "No" or "Legitimate Debate" on whether they should be in. I remember Senor used to ask Terry that when the list came out. I was looking forward to the segment, but Senor is such an asshat, and he got all uppity because he kept throwing his personal biases in there and mentioned Jim Rice about 50 times. Goff and Shep were getting annoyed with him. And of course he doesn't want Schilling in there because he's a dirty conservative.


Ah, the old "Morality Clause" coming to Dan's aid, I'll bet? Which Senor railed against when it was used to keep suspected PED-users out of the Hall for the longest time?

Wasn't it Dan who incredulously remarked something about "You've already got racists and philanderers and gamblers and wife beaters in there" or something like that?


Don't forget murderers. Ty Cobb for sure. Probably a few others from the first half of the 1900s that we don't know about. There were some bad country crackers playing baseball back then.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:36 pm 
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If Jack Morris's body of work doesn't get him in, not sure Schilling should be in. They're about the same with Schilling getting a bump because Boston is more important to writers than Toronto or Minneapolis.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:39 pm 
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Hopefully Dr. Ken (or was it WZ?) dusts off the Joe Morgan mult for an appearance in this thread.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:47 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
If Jack Morris's body of work doesn't get him in, not sure Schilling should be in. They're about the same with Schilling getting a bump because Boston is more important to writers than Toronto or Minneapolis.


Not really. Schilling's career ERA+ is 127, with Morris' being 105. Morris notched a 3.90 ERA to Schilling's 3.46, with Schilling pitching in his prime through the height of the steroid/HGH era.

Schilling also clobbers Morris in the new-age HOF indicators of Career WAR, 7-year Peak WAR, and JAWS. Really the only knock against Schilling's HOF candidacy (outside of being an outspoken conservative loon) is that his 7-year peak WAR is slightly below that of the average HOF starting pitcher.

Still though, Schilling was way more dominant of his overlapping league and era than Morris was of his own.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:58 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
If Jack Morris's body of work doesn't get him in, not sure Schilling should be in. They're about the same with Schilling getting a bump because Boston is more important to writers than Toronto or Minneapolis.


Not really. Schilling's career ERA+ is 127, with Morris' being 105. Morris notched a 3.90 ERA to Schilling's 3.46, with Schilling pitching in his prime through the height of the steroid/HGH era.

Schilling also clobbers Morris in the new-age HOF indicators of Career WAR, 7-year Peak WAR, and JAWS. Really the only knock against Schilling's HOF candidacy (outside of being an outspoken conservative loon) is that his 7-year peak WAR is slightly below that of the average HOF starting pitcher.

Still though, Schilling was way more dominant of his overlapping league and era than Morris was of his own.


Of course, Schilling was more "dominant". He had way more "stuff". (Though I believe Morris may have led the league in strikeouts at least once.) But a pitcher can only win one game on the day he pitches. There really aren't style points. The stats that are currently in vogue are largely measurements of "stuff", i.e. "the ability to miss bats". There have been plenty of great pitchers who didn't miss bats like Nolan Ryan, indeed many greater than Ryan himself. I think Schilling is short but the fake bloody sock helps. I'd say Morris is closer, but I'm fine with both of them out.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:02 pm 
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What would Morris' ERA be if he threw 6 innings per game.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:02 pm 
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If we’re going to have to adjust pitchers criteria to whatever lower bar so they can get in , Schilling is in. Hell , he’s borderline in using any metrics regardless .

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Last edited by badrogue17 on Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:02 pm 
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Do you guys think Zambrano is first ballot?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:05 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
If Jack Morris's body of work doesn't get him in, not sure Schilling should be in. They're about the same with Schilling getting a bump because Boston is more important to writers than Toronto or Minneapolis.


Not really. Schilling's career ERA+ is 127, with Morris' being 105. Morris notched a 3.90 ERA to Schilling's 3.46, with Schilling pitching in his prime through the height of the steroid/HGH era.

Schilling also clobbers Morris in the new-age HOF indicators of Career WAR, 7-year Peak WAR, and JAWS. Really the only knock against Schilling's HOF candidacy (outside of being an outspoken conservative loon) is that his 7-year peak WAR is slightly below that of the average HOF starting pitcher.

Still though, Schilling was way more dominant of his overlapping league and era than Morris was of his own.


Of course, Schilling was more "dominant". He had way more "stuff". (Though I believe Morris may have led the league in strikeouts at least once.) But a pitcher can only win one game on the day he pitches. There really aren't style points. The stats that are currently in vogue are largely measurements of "stuff", i.e. "the ability to miss bats". There have been plenty of great pitchers who didn't miss bats like Nolan Ryan, indeed many greater than Ryan himself. I think Schilling is short but the fake bloody sock helps. I'd say Morris is closer, but I'm fine with both of them out.


1. Schilling had a career W% 20 points better than that of Morris.

2. Like who?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:12 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I'd say Morris is closer, but I'm fine with both of them out.

Pretty much where I'm at on the issue. Keep Halls hard to get into. Look at the jamokes who get into the Hockey Hall of Fame: Dave Andreychuk, famous for deflecting pucks off his ass on power plays and taking a long time to win a Stanley Cup. Come on.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:23 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
1. Schilling had a career W% 20 points better than that of Morris.


He also started about 100 less games. Anyway, I'm not leading the charge for Jack Morris to the Hall of Fame. Ultimately, I'd say he and Schilling were similar guys in substance, if not style.

Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
2. Like who?


Where do you want me to start? I'll take Jim Kaat and you can have Ryan. I'm pretty sure Kaat is about 20 points better in win percentage. :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:27 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Ultimately, I'd say he and Schilling were similar guys in substance, if not style.


With absolutely no corroborating data or statistics, other than said assertion fitting with your baseball-hipster argument. As usual. I highlighted all the way in which Schilling was superior to Morris, but they're still "similar guys in substance"? Get the hell out of here.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:34 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Ultimately, I'd say he and Schilling were similar guys in substance, if not style.


With absolutely no corroborating data or statistics, other than said assertion fitting with your baseball-hipster argument. As usual. I highlighted all the way in which Schilling was superior to Morris, but they're still "similar guys in substance"? Get the hell out of here.


:lol: You're the "baseball hipster", not me. I don't need a bunch of convoluted and noisy aggregate stats to know that Mike Trout is better than Kevin Kiermaier.

And you think you highlighted the ways Schilling was "superior" to Morris. And this is the disconnect between you and me. I don't think the things you think make a pitcher superior actually do. A strikeout is nothing more than the means to an end, not the end itself, certainly not the object of the game. The hardest pitcher in history to hit doesn't have a .527 career winning percentage because he "lacked 'run support'". It's because he had flaws in his game.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:36 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I'd say Morris is closer, but I'm fine with both of them out.

Pretty much where I'm at on the issue. Keep Halls hard to get into. Look at the jamokes who get into the Hockey Hall of Fame: Dave Andreychuk, famous for deflecting pucks off his ass on power plays and taking a long time to win a Stanley Cup. Come on.

You probably shouldn’t use a guy who scored almost 650 goals as an example of guys who shouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:40 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
And you think you highlighted the ways Schilling was "superior" to Morris. And this is the disconnect between you and me. I don't think the things you think make a pitcher superior actually do. A strikeout is nothing more than the means to an end, not the end itself, certainly not the object of the game. The hardest pitcher in history to hit doesn't have a .527 career winning percentage because he "lacked 'run support'". It's because he had flaws in his game.


I'm not going to take the time to mop the floor with you regarding this all over again, but suffice it to say that only 2 of those Rangers teams Ryan was on had an above-average R/G offense. The best was the 1991 team, leading the league at more than 5 R/G. Ryan went 12-6 that year.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:50 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
And you think you highlighted the ways Schilling was "superior" to Morris. And this is the disconnect between you and me. I don't think the things you think make a pitcher superior actually do. A strikeout is nothing more than the means to an end, not the end itself, certainly not the object of the game. The hardest pitcher in history to hit doesn't have a .527 career winning percentage because he "lacked 'run support'". It's because he had flaws in his game.


I'm not going to take the time to mop the floor with you regarding this all over again, but suffice it to say that only 2 of those Rangers teams Ryan was on had an above-average R/G offense. The best was the 1991 team, leading the league at more than 5 R/G. Ryan went 12-6 that year.


You say "only two" as if he played on 17 Rangers teams that were below average offensively. He only played for the Rangers for slightly more than four seasons. Should I put away my mop bucket? :lol:

Beyond that, Ryan was a better pitcher in his forties than he ever was. Probably because he finally learned how to manage a game.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:07 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
And you think you highlighted the ways Schilling was "superior" to Morris. And this is the disconnect between you and me. I don't think the things you think make a pitcher superior actually do. A strikeout is nothing more than the means to an end, not the end itself, certainly not the object of the game. The hardest pitcher in history to hit doesn't have a .527 career winning percentage because he "lacked 'run support'". It's because he had flaws in his game.


I'm not going to take the time to mop the floor with you regarding this all over again, but suffice it to say that only 2 of those Rangers teams Ryan was on had an above-average R/G offense. The best was the 1991 team, leading the league at more than 5 R/G. Ryan went 12-6 that year.


You say "only two" as if he played on 17 Rangers teams that were below average offensively. He only played for the Rangers for slightly more than four seasons. Should I put away my mop bucket? :lol:

Beyond that, Ryan was a better pitcher in his forties than he ever was. Probably because he finally learned how to manage a game.


Of his 8 "losing" seasons, Ryan pitched for below-average offenses in 5 of them, spending 3 seasons pitching for a bottom-2 offense in his respective league.

In 1987, Ryan led the league in ERA, ERA+, FIP and Hits per 9. He lost 16 games en route to a .333 W%.

EDIT: Across 8 other seasons, Ryan pitched for 5 more below-average offenses. Making for 10 of 16 reviewed seasons pitched for below-average offensive teams.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:46 pm 
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Beardown wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
SuperMario wrote:
Yesterday, Goff gave a rundown of the list of nominees this year. Senor was supposed to answer either "Yes" "No" or "Legitimate Debate" on whether they should be in. I remember Senor used to ask Terry that when the list came out. I was looking forward to the segment, but Senor is such an asshat, and he got all uppity because he kept throwing his personal biases in there and mentioned Jim Rice about 50 times. Goff and Shep were getting annoyed with him. And of course he doesn't want Schilling in there because he's a dirty conservative.


Ah, the old "Morality Clause" coming to Dan's aid, I'll bet? Which Senor railed against when it was used to keep suspected PED-users out of the Hall for the longest time?

Wasn't it Dan who incredulously remarked something about "You've already got racists and philanderers and gamblers and wife beaters in there" or something like that?


Don't forget murderers. Ty Cobb for sure. Probably a few others from the first half of the 1900s that we don't know about. There were some bad country crackers playing baseball back then.


A lot of things said about Cobb were proven to be bullshit. He wasn't quite the racist, murdering psycho he was made out to be.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:53 pm 
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Powerhouse233 wrote:
Beardown wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
SuperMario wrote:
Yesterday, Goff gave a rundown of the list of nominees this year. Senor was supposed to answer either "Yes" "No" or "Legitimate Debate" on whether they should be in. I remember Senor used to ask Terry that when the list came out. I was looking forward to the segment, but Senor is such an asshat, and he got all uppity because he kept throwing his personal biases in there and mentioned Jim Rice about 50 times. Goff and Shep were getting annoyed with him. And of course he doesn't want Schilling in there because he's a dirty conservative.


Ah, the old "Morality Clause" coming to Dan's aid, I'll bet? Which Senor railed against when it was used to keep suspected PED-users out of the Hall for the longest time?

Wasn't it Dan who incredulously remarked something about "You've already got racists and philanderers and gamblers and wife beaters in there" or something like that?


Don't forget murderers. Ty Cobb for sure. Probably a few others from the first half of the 1900s that we don't know about. There were some bad country crackers playing baseball back then.


A lot of things said about Cobb were proven to be bullshit. He wasn't quite the racist, murdering psycho he was made out to be.


:lol: how generous!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:20 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
And you think you highlighted the ways Schilling was "superior" to Morris. And this is the disconnect between you and me. I don't think the things you think make a pitcher superior actually do. A strikeout is nothing more than the means to an end, not the end itself, certainly not the object of the game. The hardest pitcher in history to hit doesn't have a .527 career winning percentage because he "lacked 'run support'". It's because he had flaws in his game.


I'm not going to take the time to mop the floor with you regarding this all over again, but suffice it to say that only 2 of those Rangers teams Ryan was on had an above-average R/G offense. The best was the 1991 team, leading the league at more than 5 R/G. Ryan went 12-6 that year.


You say "only two" as if he played on 17 Rangers teams that were below average offensively. He only played for the Rangers for slightly more than four seasons. Should I put away my mop bucket? :lol:

Beyond that, Ryan was a better pitcher in his forties than he ever was. Probably because he finally learned how to manage a game.


Of his 8 "losing" seasons, Ryan pitched for below-average offenses in 5 of them, spending 3 seasons pitching for a bottom-2 offense in his respective league.

In 1987, Ryan led the league in ERA, ERA+, FIP and Hits per 9. He lost 16 games en route to a .333 W%.

EDIT: Across 8 other seasons, Ryan pitched for 5 more below-average offenses. Making for 10 of 16 reviewed seasons pitched for below-average offensive teams.


He pitched half his games in the Astrodome. His offense was strong. It just played in a park that held its numbers down. Do you think that park had a similar effect on his own numbers (other than his W/L record)? He was so great, yet somehow 2/3 of the time average bums pitched better than he did.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:47 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
His offense was strong. It just played in a park that held its numbers down.


For at least 10 seasons it was decidedly below average. Are we calling "below average" offense "strong" now?

Quote:
He was so great, yet somehow 2/3 of the time average bums pitched better than he did.


As evidenced by his winning win percentage?

This is JORR arguing that Nolan Ryan was actually kind of average, ladies and gentlemen. :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:35 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
His offense was strong. It just played in a park that held its numbers down.


For at least 10 seasons it was decidedly below average. Are we calling "below average" offense "strong" now?


For ten seasons he happened to pitch in the Astrodome. Why is it so difficult to understand that the same thing that helped his pitching hurt his team's offense?



Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
He was so great, yet somehow 2/3 of the time average bums pitched better than he did.


As evidenced by his winning win percentage?

This is JORR arguing that Nolan Ryan was actually kind of average, ladies and gentlemen. :lol:


:lol: Nolan Ryan was far from a great pitcher. He was also far from ordinary. He was a freakish guy, the hardest ever to hit. But at the end of it all the amount of baserunners he allowed was unimpressive. More baserunners per inning than such luminaries as Jeff Samardzija and Atlee Hammaker. Those baserunners showed up in his W/L record. Not that .526 is terrible, but it is certainly disappointing for a man who missed more bats than anyone in baseball history.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:59 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

For ten seasons he happened to pitch in the Astrodome. Why is it so difficult to understand that the same thing that helped his pitching hurt his team's offense?


Probably as hard as it is for you to understand that about 4 of the 10 below average seasons of the 16 seasons reviewed were those Houston teams.


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