Why do you feel that way? What difference does it make how a team was assembled?

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

What if they didn't have GMs as savvy as Krause? Barkley probably wishes he became his own GM rather than trust Philly's front office.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

It's also somewhat incorrect to call the Bulls a super team. Besides Pippen he didn't even play with another all star on the title teams.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Beside the obvious inherent interest in following drafts and salary caps and trades and player development over time, it leaves out about 75% of the league ever having a shot at a championship.

Look, nobody is ever going to Minneapolis. Sorry Minny your team is just a jabroni until the conference finals start and basketball games mean anything.

How is that compelling?

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

I don't think anyone should catch flak for it though. What you said above reminds me of when someone said Jordan makes the players around him better and Barkley asked, "Why does Michael get to make Scottie and Horace better and I have to make Hersey and Manute better?" There are scenarios where we could be talking about Jordan having never won a title. Does it make him a better or worse player because Jerry Krause was a better GM than Gene Shue?

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

That's a fair point. But it's not really what we're talking about here. The discussion is about whether a player should be seen a less because he participated in putting together his winning team.

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

Oh, I dunno. Not necessarily but that Heat team was kind of a sham if you ask me.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

We could just talk about what actually happened in their careers but LeBron is far behind in that case.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Opinions vary. But I have no interest in that discussion anyway. And it isn't the point.

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

Not really. I can't think of a single scenario outside of injury that would be the case. Look all throughout NBA history, go as far back in time as you want or as recent as you want. The best player in the league during a given stretch of years gets a title every single time. Every time. I know you believe that NBA fan culture dictates that whoever has the most rings is the best player but in reality it's the other way around - the best players get, and earn, their rings.

There was never going to be an NBA universe that existed where Jordan played a full career and never won a ring. It's never happened before. This isn't baseball or football. The inherent nature of basketball as a sport means the best player in the world can carry his team to a championship in ways that can't happen in baseball, football, and hockey (maybe hockey goalies qualify, don't know or care really).

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Jordan's teams were much better. So take out the discussion about picking your own team or being lucky. Jordan wins by a large margin anyways.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Lebron earned that Cavs title. that was all on him. The Heat ones not so much.

_________________
Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

FF's precious Duncan put together his own team when he rostered himself on SA after flirting with other teams.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Brick trying to take it there, but no one wants to play.

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Praise be to basketball analytics for finding out guys who shoot 3s like free throws are efficient. I'm sure Phil Jackson never thought to bring in guys with a 50 foot range.

No one is going to argue LeBron vs Jordan in terms of team accomplishments as a LeBron fan.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I think the biggest revelation here is people are opposed to agency. If you're drafted into a crap organization with an incompetent GM you must not look out for your best interests lest you get torched by the "do it the right way" crowd, which is really just pro-GM/management propaganda.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Never doubt the inefficiency of the CFMB debate squad.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

If that's what you think it's because you deliberately ignored the reasons Hatchet and I provided.

And, once again, that excuse doesn't work with LeBron - he's ditched his teams 3 times now.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

That seems like a dumb argument for dumb people

There's nothing to argue there. LBJ is more talented than Kobe and MJ. Less successful. But we've discussed this at length. In general LBJ has done enough team wise and individually to validate all the immense hype he received starting his sophomore year in high school.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

So why isn't Durant as good as LeBron? Best player on the best teams since the Jordan Bulls.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Your last sentence is true but there's nothing in their respective resumes to suggest LeBron is more talented than Michael Jordan. That's because he isn't/wasn't.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

That's a chicken/egg argument that can't be won.

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His mind is not for rent to any God or government.

No, it's not. Tell me who the best player in the world was that didn't get a title. You can't do it. That settles the argument.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Arvydas Sabonis?

j/k

_________________

The 1993 NBA Finals are a good example of this, and it's one of the examples we can use historically to show that there is no chicken/egg argument. That Suns team was every bit as good as that Bulls team by any criteria you wish to use. Except the Bulls had the better player and everyone knew it. Shockingly enough, the Bulls won. If Charles Barkley was as good as Michael Jordan than he would have gotten at least one ring and that silly quote JORR posted wouldn't exist. But he wasn't as good as MJ, and even he acknowledges that.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Pippen's growth into a star is directly relatable to being on the same team as Jordan and not pure luck.

Everyone who joined the Bulls became a better player, from the Judd Buechelers to the Scottie Pippens. That is part of Jordans greatness.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Big Bad Lebron, King James assembled a team that wasn't even his team when it was assembled. Wade was the alpha.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.