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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:44 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Dave In Champaign wrote:
Butkus discussions = fallacies on parade.

1. The "Fuck You, Chicago!" Fallacy: [athlete/coach/team/tradition] that Chicago fans enjoy is stupid, pointless, and overrated and must be attacked at every turn for the good of the city.

Ex. LeBron James is better at every aspect of playing basketball than Michael Jordan ever was, and if you disagree, you're basketball stupid.

2. The Sports Evolution Fallacy: sports are better now thanks to various rule changes (such as the shot clock, or tighter illegal-contact penalties) that make old players obsolete; however, modern players would flourish under the old rules.

Ex. If Dick Butkus traveled forward in time and was forced to cover tight ends over the middle, he would go undrafted. If Ray Lewis traveled backward in time and played by the old rules, his dominance would be so complete that the NFL would have been forced to shut down.

3. The Player Evolution Fallacy: all players who play now are better than all players who used to play, thanks primarily to improvements in nutrition and training; however, said improvements would have no impact on past players.

Ex. If Sam Jones could travel forward in time and experience the benefits of personal trainers and hyperbaric chambers, he wouldn't even be drafted, but if Dwyane Wade played his entire career in Chuck Taylors and subsisted on a diet of cheeseburgers and Lucky Strikes, he would still be a magnificent athletic specimen.

4. The Homoerotic Fallacy: self-explanatory.

Ex. Have you seen tapes of George Mikan? He's just a big slow white dork. Then you watch last year's Finals, and LeBron is stomping around the court with this comic book superhero body. He's got muscles on top of muscles. He's just...so...big.

5. The Fun With Racial Coding Fallacy: black guys are better than white guys at everything, because we say so.

Ex. Dick Butkus was a hulking, freakishly athletic white guy. Ray Lewis is a hulking, freakishly athletic black guy. Ergo, Ray Lewis is better.


You make me hot with your B&B stuff. You run a ton of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Last night I watched the Seattle Sonics vs. Golden State Warriors from 1992 thinking, "Shawn Kemp is the greatest procreator I've ever seen." I stand by that.


FIFY.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Dave In Champaign wrote:
Ex. LeBron James is better at every aspect of playing basketball than Michael Jordan ever was, and if you disagree, you're basketball stupid.

Never been said.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Dave In Champaign wrote:
Butkus discussions = fallacies on parade.

For being a pretty bright guy, Dan is a textbook of logical fallacies. You could take an aircheck to a 100-level communications course and be like "okay, spot the strawman, the slippery slope, the reduction to absurdity, the ad hominem, and begging the question. Go!"

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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:48 pm 
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The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Dave In Champaign wrote:
Ex. LeBron James is better at every aspect of playing basketball than Michael Jordan ever was, and if you disagree, you're basketball stupid.

Never been said.

I've heard Dan say that almost word for word.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:50 pm 
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The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Dave In Champaign wrote:
Ex. LeBron James is better at every aspect of playing basketball than Michael Jordan ever was, and if you disagree, you're basketball stupid.

Never been said.


Not exactly in those words, but close.


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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:53 pm 
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The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Dave In Champaign wrote:
Ex. LeBron James is better at every aspect of playing basketball than Michael Jordan ever was, and if you disagree, you're basketball stupid.

Never been said.


The Ombudsman Fallacy: rejecting any criticism of B&B that does not include a notarized transcript of the show in question.

Ex. supra

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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:04 pm 
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Dave just proved why UofI is the educational mecca of Illinois.

And likes meth.


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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:14 pm 
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somebody just took Logic 101. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:16 pm 
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Dave In Champaign wrote:
The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Dave In Champaign wrote:
Ex. LeBron James is better at every aspect of playing basketball than Michael Jordan ever was, and if you disagree, you're basketball stupid.

Never been said.


The Ombudsman Fallacy: rejecting any criticism of B&B that does not include a notarized transcript of the show in question.

Ex. supra

No. I just reject any criticism of things that are completely made up. I've explained this before.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:20 pm 
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The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Dave In Champaign wrote:
The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Dave In Champaign wrote:
Ex. LeBron James is better at every aspect of playing basketball than Michael Jordan ever was, and if you disagree, you're basketball stupid.

Never been said.


The Ombudsman Fallacy: rejecting any criticism of B&B that does not include a notarized transcript of the show in question.

Ex. supra

No. I just reject any criticism of things that are completely made up. I've explained this before.

That's not completely made up though. Im not even sure it is really exaggerated. After the 2012 Finals, I definitely heard Dan Bernstein say things very similar to "LeBron James is just better than Michael Jordan. Sorry, he just is. Accept it. He's better on defense, he's more physical, more dominant, more explosive. He is harder to guard. He is the perfect basketball player." Thats not really much different from what Dave said.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:22 pm 
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Bernsy says that all the time. Not sure what the debate is.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:25 pm 
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Scottie Pippen agrees.

Quote:
“Michael Jordan is probably the greatest scorer to ever play in the game. But I may go as far as to say LeBron James may be the greatest player to ever play the game because he’s so potent offensively that not only can he score at will, but he keeps everybody involved.

“You have to be on your P’s and Q’s on defense because no guy on the basketball court is not a threat to score when LeBron James is out there. But not only that, he’s also doing it on the defensive end.”


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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:55 pm 
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Ugueth Will Shiv You wrote:
Scottie Pippen agrees.

Quote:
“Michael Jordan is probably the greatest scorer to ever play in the game. But I may go as far as to say LeBron James may be the greatest player to ever play the game because he’s so potent offensively that not only can he score at will, but he keeps everybody involved.

“You have to be on your P’s and Q’s on defense because no guy on the basketball court is not a threat to score when LeBron James is out there. But not only that, he’s also doing it on the defensive end.”


Oh, Scotty! Your inability to not speak in double-negatives is truly dizzying.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:33 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Besides, we have had this discussion before, as Kid pointed out. I think you are misframing it by saying people dont understand evolution. It's not an evolution issue. Besides the diet/drugs/training advantage that today's athletes have, there's also a much larger talent pool to draw from. Of course a guy like Sam Jones could hang with Dwyane Wade. There's just a lot more Wades today than there were Sams back then.


The problem is the people who think Babe Ruth wouldn't be a star today, Walter Johnson didn't throw 97mph, and Dick Butkus was too slow to play in today's games. Those arguments are just silly. Outliers back then would still be outliers today.

I agree with that. But I think the mean is higher today than it was back then, for reasons I explained. When it comes to sports, I've noticed people tend to have sillier opinions on the generational gap of athletes than in just about any other area or subject.


But that's never the argument. You're making a reasonable point based on population growth, the markets for specific sports, etc. To say that the talent level is deeper is a far cry from suggesting that Babe Ruth accumulated his numbers vs. midgets and cripples. Not to mention suggesting a guy who is physically inferior by every measure would "run circles around" his superior based on nothing more than the time when they played and/or their respective skin tones.

To OKC's point, I think most people have biases based on that magical time when they really became a fan of a game. You grow up and it's tough to maintain that childlike awe and wonder. But while Bobby Knoop will always be my hero and Paul Konerko never could, I don't have a hard time knowing which one was a more accomplished ballplayer.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:53 pm 
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Kirkwood wrote:
prickly pete wrote:
Kevin Goldstein has said on multiple occasions that if an average roster from 1960 played an average roster from 2012, the current team would absolutely wang-whip them.

I have a hard time believing this just based on the dilution of today's talent. Baseball was the sport of the nation and there were half the teams.
Diluted? At this very moment, every MLB franchise has a scout in some godforsaken hovel in the DR, Cuba, Panama or Venezuela watching a 14 year old take grounders. A and AA are littered with kids who were High School legends in their hometown who don't have a chance of sniffing the majors because they can't learn how to throw a changeup.

Yes, there are more teams, but the number of people playing and evaluating baseball is just as big, if not bigger.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:11 am 
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prickly pete wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
prickly pete wrote:
Kevin Goldstein has said on multiple occasions that if an average roster from 1960 played an average roster from 2012, the current team would absolutely wang-whip them.

I have a hard time believing this just based on the dilution of today's talent. Baseball was the sport of the nation and there were half the teams.
Diluted? At this very moment, every MLB franchise has a scout in some godforsaken hovel in the DR, Cuba, Panama or Venezuela watching a 14 year old take grounders. A and AA are littered with kids who were High School legends in their hometown who don't have a chance of sniffing the majors because they can't learn how to throw a changeup.

Yes, there are more teams, but the number of people playing and evaluating baseball is just as big, if not bigger.


Of course today's population is much greater, baseball is open to people in more markets, and, most significantly, blacks are allowed to play in the major leagues. But that may well be more than offset by the fact that in the 30s baseball was virtually the only professional sport for those who didn't want to be hit in the head or were too big to ride a horse, as well as the fact that there were half as many teams.

I think such an argument works better for basketball as Favre Fan suggested. In the 70s the NBA was an afterthought and basketball wasn't really played at any significant level anywhere else in the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:47 am 
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jeez, when's the last time you saw kids out playing ball in the street/vacant lot/park. That's primarily what kids did back in the day. Personally, I think the 60s-70s must have been the golden era. You had full integration and baseball still ruled across the country.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:57 am 
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Hatchetman wrote:
jeez, when's the last time you saw kids out playing ball in the street/vacant lot/park. That's primarily what kids did back in the day. Personally, I think the 60s-70s must have been the golden era. You had full integration and baseball still ruled across the country.


I would say 50s'-60s was probably the peak of American baseball. And in spite of the Yankee dominance of that era built around possibly the greatest all-around player in the history of the game and the most criminally underrated pitcher ever, it's clear that the reluctance (with few exceptions, i.e. Veeck) of the American League to embrace blacks and Hispanics created two very different leagues with the NL showing clear superiority that lasted a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:59 am 
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I actually see that quite often, actually. I remember Bernsie mentioned that he never sees a pick-up game around the neighborhood anymore, but I really don't buy that.


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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:04 am 
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Ugueth Will Shiv You wrote:
I actually see that quite often, actually. I remember Bernsie mentioned that he never sees a pick-up game around the neighborhood anymore, but I really don't buy that.

That might be primarily based on where Berns lives.

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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:11 am 
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Phil McCracken wrote:
Ugueth Will Shiv You wrote:
I actually see that quite often, actually. I remember Bernsie mentioned that he never sees a pick-up game around the neighborhood anymore, but I really don't buy that.

That might be primarily based on where Berns lives.


I really wanted to throw another "actually" in my previous sentence, but I ran out of stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: Bernstein the ageist
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:57 am 
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Ugueth Will Shiv You wrote:
I actually see that quite often, actually. I remember Bernsie mentioned that he never sees a pick-up game around the neighborhood anymore, but I really don't buy that.


Do you live out in the exurbs?

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