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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:54 am 
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It's apparent that Golic actually does have a thought when he's not taking on an ESPN talking head or a Hall of Fame player. Paul Ladewski is on Mike and Mike right now and Golic is taking him to task on why Paul thinks it's wrong that a player should not get voted into the HOF unamiously.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:08 am 
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Interesting that he chooses this to go off on. I'm not necessarily against someone being voted in unanimously, but it shouldn't be Ripken.

Not to start a firestorm, but, separate from him not sitting, other than the fact that he played 6 more years and won 3 fewer gold gloves, Ripken's stats are remarkably similar to.....

Ron Santo's

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:17 am 
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Unfortunately for Santo fans, Ripken played SS most of his career in a time when there wasn't much expected other than defense and some speed fomr the position.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:30 am 
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I know he was ground-breaking in terms of his body type and power numbers at the position and the boo-yah network loves him, but Ripken doesn't hit my list of the top 10 greatest players of all time or anything. HOFer? Absolutely.

To me, he's like Sandberg. I love Ryno and he should be in the HOF because he brought power to a position that traditionally didn't have it while playing excellent defense. But, even though I love Ryno, he's not in that upper tier of HOFers IMO.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:36 am 
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I think Cal also gets consideration for his "Ambassador of the Game" status. I agree that he wasn't a dominant player, but a very good player for a long time. I don't see why anybody WOULDN'T vote for him on the first ballot unless they can't get off their high horse (like Ladewski).

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Last edited by Bulldog Scott on Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:39 am 
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I think Cal also gets consideration for his "Ambassador of the Game" status.


That didn't help Buck O'Neill, the bastards :evil:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:43 am 
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The part that I didn't like about Golic's argument was when the conversation shifted to performance enhancers. He asked Ladewski in so many words if he would vote for Palmiero, and Ladewski said no because he cheated. Then Golic brought up Gaylord Perry. I hate this analogy.

There is a HUGE difference between the type of cheating that Gaylord Perry did and taking performance enhancers. Gaylord scuffed and spit on a baseball. He is not the only person in history to do it. He was just one of the few who could actually control a doctored baseball well enough to actually have it work for them (a doctored ball is not easy to control). I don't think that authorities were staking out Gaylord's house awaiting the arrival of a shipment of doctored baseballs. Why? Because while it's considered "cheating" in baseball, it's not against the law. Steroids and HGH are against the law.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:46 am 
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MUScholar21 wrote:
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I think Cal also gets consideration for his "Ambassador of the Game" status.


That didn't help Buck O'Neill, the bastards :evil:


Yeah, that's absurd. Nobody had more passion for the game than him. I was at the Negro League Museum in KC a couple of years ago (an absolute MUST if you're ever in KC, along with Arthur Bryants), and he was there. Got to talk to him for a little bit about the Cubs and Ernie Banks. Just a really interesting guy.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:03 am 
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Bulldog Scott wrote:
I think Cal also gets consideration for his "Ambassador of the Game" status. I agree that he wasn't a dominate player, but a very good player for a long time. I don't see why anybody WOULDN'T vote for him on the first ballot unless they can't get off their high horse (like Ladewski).


Ripken was the best SS in baseball for a decade. I think that qualifies as dominant.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:19 am 
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chus wrote:
Ripken was the best SS in baseball for a decade. I think that qualifies as dominant.


Does it though? Over the last 10 years, I would say that Andruw Jones has been baseball's best centerfielder. I think he is a hall of famer. But has he been dominant? I guess we have different definitions of dominance. Or, maybe dominant isn't a very good term for baseball, since it's very hard to dominate the game as a position player.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:21 am 
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I know I will get drilled for this, but here goes....for periods of his career he was NOT the best shortstop in the game. Late 80s early 90s saw him go into huge swoons in July & August when his team needed him. There were periods where he was batting in the low .200s for a month. But, because the streak was the story, no one would dare consider giving him a rest. Anyone remember the Game of the Week showing his batting stance from month to month? Beginning of the year he was straight up with good bat speed. In August/September he was dragging the bat to the plate and couldn't get around.
Now, I agree he is a hall of famer--mostly for redefining the position. You wouldn't have Derek Jeter or Alex Rodriguez with Ripken. Goodwill ambassador sure. The man who saved baseball (as several banners at his streak breaking game read)? No.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:23 am 
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I'd probably give you Ripken was excellent for an extended period, but of his contemporaries, I think you might find some takers on Barry Larkin during both their mid/late-80's-early/mid-90's run.

Ripken had more power, but Larkin was the better overall hitter.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:35 am 
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I think you'll always be able to find pockets of his career where there were better shortstops. However, looking at the big picture he was probably the best SS in the game during the peak years of his career.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:42 am 
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That is what is kind of weird about his career Bulldog. His peak years are probably from '83-'86, when he was 25. After that he was pretty mediocre with the occassional year where he was excellent. But, after he was 25, he only hit over .280 three times and under .260 seven times.

He's a Hall of Famer but I was suprised at how poor some of his numbers were. You would think his prime years would be from age 26-32, but he hit under .265 in 6 of those 7 years.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ripkeca01.shtml

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:57 am 
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That's kind of funny. The way that he is praised in the media you would think that he was a career .300 hitter. .276 isn't awful by any stretch, but he is clearly getting in on the merits of the streak. By playing everyday he was able to get to 3000 hits and 400 plus homeruns.

I like Cal. Some criticize him for being selfish with the streak. I see all of those points (he would have been a better player with rest, hurt the team, etc.). I still think it's admirable to show up everyday and get after it. He did that better than anybody.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:54 pm 
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Bulldog Scott wrote:
The part that I didn't like about Golic's argument was when the conversation shifted to performance enhancers. He asked Ladewski in so many words if he would vote for Palmiero, and Ladewski said no because he cheated. Then Golic brought up Gaylord Perry. I hate this analogy.

There is a HUGE difference between the type of cheating that Gaylord Perry did and taking performance enhancers. Gaylord scuffed and spit on a baseball. He is not the only person in history to do it. He was just one of the few who could actually control a doctored baseball well enough to actually have it work for them (a doctored ball is not easy to control). I don't think that authorities were staking out Gaylord's house awaiting the arrival of a shipment of doctored baseballs. Why? Because while it's considered "cheating" in baseball, it's not against the law. Steroids and HGH are against the law.


Now Dan Patrick is saying the same thing. This shit kills me.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:59 pm 
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From Jayson Stark today:

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Cal Ripken Jr.
And what would be the explanation for not voting for Ripken, for that matter? That he didn't come up to the press box and personally shake every hand during his surreal orbit of the ballpark the night he passed Lou Gehrig?

It's sure tough to think of any other negatives on this guy's report card. I've heard people say the streak was overrated. And in a vacuum, most iron-man streaks really are. But when you consider what this streak meant to the sport, what the night of 2,131 meant to the sport, how could we ever claim this particular streak was overrated?

The fact is, though, that Cal Ripken would be a Hall of Famer whether he'd played in two games in a row or 2,000 in a row. That streak made him an icon, but he was already a Hall of Famer. The streak was just a frame around a great career.

Did you know that no player was elected to start the All-Star Game more times than Ripken (17 times in 18 years)? Did you know that no American League shortstop besides Ripken ever won two MVP awards?

Did you know that no shortstop ever had more seasons of at least 50 extra-base hits than Ripken (12)? Did you know that just three players besides Ripken ever won a rookie-of-the-year award, an MVP award and an All-Star Game MVP award -- Frank Robinson, Willie Mays and Fred Lynn?

I could go on for a week. But if any truly responsible voters in this electorate think Cal Ripken isn't a first-ballot Hall of Famer, why are we even letting them vote?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:59 pm 
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My opinion means nothing, but I have always thought it was strange that you had more than one chance to be voted into the Hall of Fame. This is the Hall of Fame. It should be evident as soon as the name is mentioned.

By the way, Cal Ripken falls into that category.

When looking at his offensive numbers, compare him to the other shortstops of his era. A first baseman can have unequal offensive numbers and still be of equal value to the team.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:59 pm 
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Ladewski is a mediocre writer for a 3rd rate paper. He's doing this for self promotion. They should take his vote away, if he is that stupid.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:06 pm 
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Score is doomed wrote:
Ladewski is a mediocre writer for a 3rd rate paper. He's doing this for self promotion. They should take his vote away, if he is that stupid.


Agreed. When he was on Mike and Mike this morning, he didn't argue his points worth a shit.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:08 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
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My opinion means nothing, but I have always thought it was strange that you had more than one chance to be voted into the Hall of Fame. This is the Hall of Fame. It should be evident as soon as the name is mentioned.


Well if you've got 6-10 people that belong in the Hall of Fame on the same year, and only 3 can be inducted at once, you're saying the remaining should *never* be considered again? It just can't work that way.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:55 pm 
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Who said only 3 can be inducted at once? I didn't know that was a rule.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:18 am 
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Ryan, the only rule restricting the number voted in is that each writer can only pick ten people.

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