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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:35 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
If he is the best defensive infielder we have ever seen and a better hitter than Addison tha ol merlot joe must not be a great manager for
Starting the inferior player.

Maybe because nobody else on the team can seamlessly switch between 2nd, 3rd and SS?


Theo told me that all of his minor league ss could play any other position besides catcher and pitcher just a couple
Of years ago


You seem to listen to a lot of Theo.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:37 pm 
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Matches Malone wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
What has he shown he can do at SS?

You've never seen him play SS?

I'm asking you what he's done at SS to be called "elite" and mentioned among the best SS in the history of the game?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:37 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
What has he shown he can do at SS?

You've never seen him play SS?

I'm asking you what he's done at SS to be called "elite" and mentioned among the best SS in the history of the game?

He made some good plays at a moment in time.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:40 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
What has he shown he can do at SS?

You've never seen him play SS?

I'm asking you what he's done at SS to be called "elite" and mentioned among the best SS in the history of the game?

He made some good plays at a moment in time.




That's @ 2nd, he hasn't done dick at short..I don't think he's better than Addy at short, he's probably the best glove at second base in the majors though.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:40 pm 
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Sox fans seriously jealous of young infield talent on the Northside. Baseless statements of criticism without evidence! Sad!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:41 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
What has he shown he can do at SS?

You've never seen him play SS?

I'm asking you what he's done at SS to be called "elite" and mentioned among the best SS in the history of the game?

He made some good plays at a moment in time.
That Matches and leash happened to see on the television.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:41 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
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"Baez is not a great defensive infielder" and "Baez is the best defensive infielder of the past 33 years" are probably equally silly and biased.


I don't lay any claim to the latter so I can't answer for that.

:lol:

You said one is a completely reasonable statement and the other the person is nuts for saying it.


I don't know how much more clearly I can explain this.

Have you ever sat around watching sports (especially with older guys) and they say something similar? At Thanksgiving, we would always watch football and I can remember my dad or uncles or someone saying "you know, so-and-so's about the best I've seen at __________". Yes, very Hawk-ish... and sometimes even hyperbolic... but they don't literally mean it as "that guy is the best quarterback in the history of the NFL." It's not that simple... it's just a saying. They mean it more like "man, during this stretch I've been watching recently, he's doing ______ as well as anyone I've ever seen do it." I don't know how to explain it anymore than that.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:41 pm 
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312player wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
What has he shown he can do at SS?

You've never seen him play SS?

I'm asking you what he's done at SS to be called "elite" and mentioned among the best SS in the history of the game?

He made some good plays at a moment in time.




That's @ 2nd, he hasn't done dick at short..I don't think he's better than Addy at short, he's probably the best glove at second base in the majors though.


He's a heullva lot better than Tim Anderson at SS.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:41 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
What has he shown he can do at SS?

You've never seen him play SS?

I'm asking you what he's done at SS to be called "elite" and mentioned among the best SS in the history of the game?

He made some good plays at a moment in time.

I guess you guys didn't watch much Cub baseball last year.

The guy was making spectacular plays at three different positions.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:42 pm 
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Matches Malone wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
What has he shown he can do at SS?

You've never seen him play SS?

I'm asking you what he's done at SS to be called "elite" and mentioned among the best SS in the history of the game?

He made some good plays at a moment in time.

I guess you guys didn't watch much Cub baseball last year.

The guy was making spectacular plays at three different positions.


:lol:

Yeah, now they're mocking our statements by making up statements that are actually true.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:43 pm 
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Matches Malone wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Let's say I'm wrong and it's fair to suggest Baez is in the conversation for best defensive infielder ever. How many guys are in that conversation? Just curious.

Since 84, I said he's right there with Smith, Vizquel and Simmons.

He's shown what he can do at three different positions.

He's right there with a 15 time gold glover?
I mean... I like him too and he can tag but did you see him bobble that relay throw in game 7?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:43 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
"Baez is not a great defensive infielder" and "Baez is the best defensive infielder of the past 33 years" are probably equally silly and biased.


I don't lay any claim to the latter so I can't answer for that.

:lol:

You said one is a completely reasonable statement and the other the person is nuts for saying it.


I don't know how much more clearly I can explain this.

Have you ever sat around watching sports (especially with older guys) and they say something similar? At Thanksgiving, we would always watch football and I can remember my dad or uncles or someone saying "you know, so-and-so's about the best I've seen at __________". Yes, very Hawk-ish... and sometimes even hyperbolic... but they don't literally mean it as "that guy is the best quarterback in the history of the NFL." It's not that simple... it's just a saying. They mean it more like "man, during this stretch I've been watching recently, he's doing ______ as well as anyone I've ever seen do it." I don't know how to explain it anymore than that.

Ok, but Matches isn't doing that. He's straight up telling you he sincerely believes it.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:44 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
What has he shown he can do at SS?

You've never seen him play SS?

I'm asking you what he's done at SS to be called "elite" and mentioned among the best SS in the history of the game?

He made some good plays at a moment in time.

I guess you guys didn't watch much Cub baseball last year.

The guy was making spectacular plays at three different positions.


:lol:

Yeah, now they're mocking our statements by making up statements that are actually true.


The Cubbie jealously is real. I can't blame them thought. It's exciting baseball.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:45 pm 
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I love Matches, but I'm not Matches. That's how I took his statement. I still sorta think that's what he means. He's not speaking to longevity.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:45 pm 
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Making spectacular plays at 2, or 3, or 9 different positions does not make somebody an all-time great fielder.

If you are claiming Baez is one of the best defensive infielders you have ever seen, then you are calling him an all-time great. That is absurd right now.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:47 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Let's say I'm wrong and it's fair to suggest Baez is in the conversation for best defensive infielder ever. How many guys are in that conversation? Just curious.

Since 84, I said he's right there with Smith, Vizquel and Simmons.

He's shown what he can do at three different positions.

He's right there with a 15 time gold glover?
I mean... I like him too and he can tag but did you see him bobble that relay throw in game 7?

Rafael Palmerio won gold gloves.

And yes, Baez is right there with Ozzie Smith & Omar Vizquel as defensive baseball players.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:49 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
I love Matches, but I'm not Matches. That's how I took his statement. I still sorta think that's what he means. He's not speaking to longevity.

Alright. But even if we isolate Baez to last year, he still didn't seem to have an all time great defensive year on paper. The stats and metrics seem to suggest he's very good and not an all time great. I mean I guess we can just ignore them and go with the eye test, but I have a feeling many of you are not watching nearly the amount of other 29 teams as you are watching Baez play, so it's not really an ideal way to judge unless you are.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:50 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Making spectacular plays at 2, or 3, or 9 different positions does not make somebody an all-time great fielder.

If you are claiming Baez is one of the best defensive infielders you have ever seen, then you are calling him an all-time great. That is absurd right now.

When you're making those spectacular plays on a regular basis then yes, it does make one a great defender.

And before you come at me with the Jim Edmonds argument, how many bad routes have you seen Baez take on balls?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:50 pm 
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:lol: What does an outfielder have to do with Baez?

Matches Malone wrote:
And yes, Baez is right there with Ozzie Smith & Omar Vizquel as defensive baseball players.
Quoted for absurdity.

In 5 or 6 years, might be true. As we sit here today, this is sheer insanity.

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Last edited by Frank Coztansa on Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:51 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I love Matches, but I'm not Matches. That's how I took his statement. I still sorta think that's what he means. He's not speaking to longevity.

Alright. But even if we isolate Baez to last year, he still didn't seem to have an all time great defensive year on paper. The stats and metrics seem to suggest he's very good and not an all time great. I mean I guess we can just ignore them and go with the eye test, but I have a feeling many of you are not watching nearly the amount of other 29 teams as you are watching Baez play, so it's not really an ideal way to judge unless you are.



http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-cubs/ ... fense-cubs

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:53 pm 
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Matches Malone wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Let's say I'm wrong and it's fair to suggest Baez is in the conversation for best defensive infielder ever. How many guys are in that conversation? Just curious.

Since 84, I said he's right there with Smith, Vizquel and Simmons.

He's shown what he can do at three different positions.

He's right there with a 15 time gold glover?
I mean... I like him too and he can tag but did you see him bobble that relay throw in game 7?

Rafael Palmerio won gold gloves.

And yes, Baez is right there with Ozzie Smith & Omar Vizquel as defensive baseball players.

Did he win 15? Smith did.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:55 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
:lol: What does an outfielder have to do with Baez?

Matches Malone wrote:
And yes, Baez is right there with Ozzie Smith & Omar Vizquel as defensive baseball players.
Quotes for absurdity.

In 5 or 6 years, might be true. As we sit here today, this is sheer insanity.

If that's an absurd quote than call me crazy.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:55 pm 
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Dude matches I ike Baez but comparing him to smith... I mean... smith dude.
Smith.
The guy is the best I've seen in my lifetime. Every ss gets compared to him.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:57 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
Dude matches I ike Baez but comparing him to smith... I mean... smith dude.
Smith.
The guy is the best I've seen in my lifetime. Every ss gets compared to him.

And what did you see Smith do that you don't think Baez can do with a glove?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:57 pm 
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He's the best defensive 2nd baseman I've seen on the Cubs or Sox in my lifetime.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:58 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I love Matches, but I'm not Matches. That's how I took his statement. I still sorta think that's what he means. He's not speaking to longevity.

Alright. But even if we isolate Baez to last year, he still didn't seem to have an all time great defensive year on paper. The stats and metrics seem to suggest he's very good and not an all time great. I mean I guess we can just ignore them and go with the eye test, but I have a feeling many of you are not watching nearly the amount of other 29 teams as you are watching Baez play, so it's not really an ideal way to judge unless you are.



http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-cubs/ ... fense-cubs

Right, so there's a metric saying basically what Frank is - if he plays longer and more and at this high a level, he'll get there. That's reasonable.

That metric(and some other stats) also seems to suggest he's not elite defensively at third.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:59 pm 
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312player wrote:
He's the best defensive 2nd baseman I've seen on the Cubs or Sox in my lifetime.
Baez is not better than Ryno. Yet.

Matches, you are crazy.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:06 pm 
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Matches Malone wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Dude matches I ike Baez but comparing him to smith... I mean... smith dude.
Smith.
The guy is the best I've seen in my lifetime. Every ss gets compared to him.

And what did you see Smith do that you don't think Baez can do with a glove?

Be solid and consistent over 20 years.
We can compare his career when he's got that kind of tenure.
Until then Baez is a very gifted athlete with a load of potential. He has all the gifts.
He needs to show he can use them over a long career.
That's what I saw smith do that I didn't see Baez do.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
312player wrote:
He's the best defensive 2nd baseman I've seen on the Cubs or Sox in my lifetime.
Baez is not better than Ryno. Yet.

Matches, you are crazy.



I know I missed Sandberg pre 89 ish , but I just never thought he had a great glove or range. They give GG's out to the best offensive player at each position unless they are a real butcher.


http://www.espn.com/blog/sweetspot/post ... gs-defense

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:10 pm 
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312player wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
312player wrote:
He's the best defensive 2nd baseman I've seen on the Cubs or Sox in my lifetime.
Baez is not better than Ryno. Yet.

Matches, you are crazy.



I know I missed Sandberg pre 89 ish , but I just never thought he had a great glove or range. They give GG's out to the best offensive player at each position unless they are a real butcher.


http://www.espn.com/blog/sweetspot/post ... gs-defense


Back in the day, fewer errors played into it which tells very little.

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