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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:06 pm 
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Nas wrote:
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Bonds is the best player I've ever seen and he has to be top 3 all-time.


pre roids?


Period. He showed what happens when a great player does what good players were doing. I don't know if Griffey used but his injuries make him a suspect. Watching Barry at the end had to be what it was like watching Ruth.



ya but those last 7 years were all fake. Instead of declining bonds got better but that was because of the steroids. It was exciting to watch him bat at the time because we accepted it but knew the truth. but looking back, it was just phony.

because of the steroid abuse, i got to give my vote out to Big Frank. He put up great numbers and did it clean.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:11 pm 
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Frank was a designated hitter. The best player of a generation can't spend 95% of a ballgame sitting on his ass.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:14 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Frank was a designated hitter. The best player of a generation can't spend 95% of a ballgame sitting on his ass.



Frank played first most of his career, you can't blame him for being in the AL who used the DH.

If bonds was in the AL, he would have been a DH too his last 4-5 years as well

If Frank used roids, he would have had better #'s than bonds on roids.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:21 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:13 pm 
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Nas wrote:
HawaiiYou wrote:
Nas wrote:
Bonds is the best player I've ever seen and he has to be top 3 all-time.


pre roids?


Period. He showed what happens when a great player does what good players were doing. I don't know if Griffey used but his injuries make him a suspect. Watching Barry at the end had to be what it was like watching Ruth.

Yup. A .480 OBP at age 42 is fuckin insane, steroids or not.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:59 pm 
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roided out freaque show doesn't count:

1. Greg Maddux
2. Pedro
3. Mike Schmidt

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:35 pm 
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HawaiiYou wrote:
because of the steroid abuse, i got to give my vote out to Big Frank. He put up great numbers and did it clean.

How do we know that to be true?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:12 pm 
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i guess we really don't but that's what people say, that he was clean.

my take on that whole steroids era : I think bud selig is full of shit when the leaked report said something like 10 percent of players were roiding. Im willing to bet it was more like 50-70 percent. When will that report ever be made Public? It's like 15 years now. probably never. I'd be interested to see if the rumors that Prior and Wood were roiding were true or not.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:13 pm 
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HawaiiYou wrote:
i guess we really don't but that's what people say, that he was clean.

my take on that whole steroids era : I think bud selig is full of shit when the leaked report said something like 10 percent of players were roiding. Im willing to bet it was more like 50-70 percent. When will that report ever be made Public? It's like 15 years now. probably never. I'd be interested to see if the rumors that Prior and Wood were roiding were true or not.


I think Prior was unquestionably roiding. Wood, I don't know. He was always pudgy and then got skinny as hell. He doesn't seem like a roid user, but you never know.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:19 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
HawaiiYou wrote:
i guess we really don't but that's what people say, that he was clean.

my take on that whole steroids era : I think bud selig is full of shit when the leaked report said something like 10 percent of players were roiding. Im willing to bet it was more like 50-70 percent. When will that report ever be made Public? It's like 15 years now. probably never. I'd be interested to see if the rumors that Prior and Wood were roiding were true or not.


I think Prior was unquestionably roiding. Wood, I don't know. He was always pudgy and then got skinny as hell. He doesn't seem like a roid user, but you never know.

Juicing was probably much more rampant amongst pitchers than people realize.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:23 pm 
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Matches Malone wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
HawaiiYou wrote:
i guess we really don't but that's what people say, that he was clean.

my take on that whole steroids era : I think bud selig is full of shit when the leaked report said something like 10 percent of players were roiding. Im willing to bet it was more like 50-70 percent. When will that report ever be made Public? It's like 15 years now. probably never. I'd be interested to see if the rumors that Prior and Wood were roiding were true or not.


I think Prior was unquestionably roiding. Wood, I don't know. He was always pudgy and then got skinny as hell. He doesn't seem like a roid user, but you never know.

Juicing was probably much more rampant amongst pitchers than people realize.


Agreed. I doubt they used traditional, pure testosterone that makes your head bigger than a watermelon quite as much as hitters, but I bet they used HGH and other versions of it quite a bit. Hell, if Andy Pettite used HGH, nobody's presumed innocent.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:27 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
HawaiiYou wrote:
i guess we really don't but that's what people say, that he was clean.

my take on that whole steroids era : I think bud selig is full of shit when the leaked report said something like 10 percent of players were roiding. Im willing to bet it was more like 50-70 percent. When will that report ever be made Public? It's like 15 years now. probably never. I'd be interested to see if the rumors that Prior and Wood were roiding were true or not.


I think Prior was unquestionably roiding. Wood, I don't know. He was always pudgy and then got skinny as hell. He doesn't seem like a roid user, but you never know.

Juicing was probably much more rampant amongst pitchers than people realize.


Agreed. I doubt they used traditional, pure testosterone that makes your head bigger than a watermelon quite as much as hitters, but I bet they used HGH and other versions of it quite a bit. Hell, if Andy Pettite used HGH, nobody's presumed innocent.


If they ever release the report I think then people would forgive guys like Bonds and McGwire. You can argue they had to keep up with the Jones' and that the playing field was more level if a majority of players were roiding.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:30 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Agreed. I doubt they used traditional, pure testosterone that makes your head bigger than a watermelon quite as much as hitters, but I bet they used HGH and other versions of it quite a bit. Hell, if Andy Pettite used HGH, nobody's presumed innocent.

What was Farnsworth on?

Image


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:32 pm 
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HawaiiYou wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
HawaiiYou wrote:
i guess we really don't but that's what people say, that he was clean.

my take on that whole steroids era : I think bud selig is full of shit when the leaked report said something like 10 percent of players were roiding. Im willing to bet it was more like 50-70 percent. When will that report ever be made Public? It's like 15 years now. probably never. I'd be interested to see if the rumors that Prior and Wood were roiding were true or not.


I think Prior was unquestionably roiding. Wood, I don't know. He was always pudgy and then got skinny as hell. He doesn't seem like a roid user, but you never know.

Juicing was probably much more rampant amongst pitchers than people realize.


Agreed. I doubt they used traditional, pure testosterone that makes your head bigger than a watermelon quite as much as hitters, but I bet they used HGH and other versions of it quite a bit. Hell, if Andy Pettite used HGH, nobody's presumed innocent.


If they ever release the report I think then people would forgive guys like Bonds and McGwire. You can argue they had to keep up with the Jones' and that the playing field was more level if a majority of players were roiding.

I don't even think they need to release the report for people to already realize that was the case with Bonds. I don't know how anyone can blame Bonds for watching Sammy and Mark get all the accolades in 1998 and then saying "Fuck this, I can play that game too"

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:55 pm 
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Matches Malone wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Agreed. I doubt they used traditional, pure testosterone that makes your head bigger than a watermelon quite as much as hitters, but I bet they used HGH and other versions of it quite a bit. Hell, if Andy Pettite used HGH, nobody's presumed innocent.

What was Farnsworth on?

Image

That is almost as good as the beating Nolan gave to Ventura :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:26 pm 
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How long did it take Paul Wilson to realize he had made a terrible miscalculation?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:27 pm 
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Drunk Squirrel wrote:
How long did it take Paul Wilson to realize he had made a terrible miscalculation?

:lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:03 pm 
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So what's the verdict on him so far at leadoff ? He's doing the job OBO wise but needs a little more consistency with the bat, no?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:19 pm 
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badrogue17 wrote:
So what's the verdict on him so far at leadoff ? He's doing the job OBO wise but needs a little more consistency with the bat, no?


He's doing what a leadoff man is supposed to do but I think his presence is also supporting the traditional thinking about hitter placement.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:25 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
So what's the verdict on him so far at leadoff ? He's doing the job OBO wise but needs a little more consistency with the bat, no?


He's doing what a leadoff man is supposed to do but I think his presence is also supporting the traditional thinking about hitter placement.



I wouldn't say that after just a month. Anyway, I think batting order is probably an overrated concern. The problem is, does a guy like Schwarber take a different approach because he believes he's supposed to.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:26 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
So what's the verdict on him so far at leadoff ? He's doing the job OBO wise but needs a little more consistency with the bat, no?


He's doing what a leadoff man is supposed to do but I think his presence is also supporting the traditional thinking about hitter placement.



I wouldn't say that after just a month. Anyway, I think batting order is probably an overrated concern. The problem is, does a guy like Schwarber take a different approach because he believes he's supposed to.


I hope not. I guess that might be a concern when he's truly leading off, but after that, he's just getting more at-bats than anyone else in random order.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:28 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
Matches Malone wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Agreed. I doubt they used traditional, pure testosterone that makes your head bigger than a watermelon quite as much as hitters, but I bet they used HGH and other versions of it quite a bit. Hell, if Andy Pettite used HGH, nobody's presumed innocent.

What was Farnsworth on?

Image

That is almost as good as the beating Nolan gave to Ventura :wink:


I was at that game. I think it was year three of my annual out of market Cubs trip. We are on year 16 now, Boston this weekend as luck would have it.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:35 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
So what's the verdict on him so far at leadoff ? He's doing the job OBO wise but needs a little more consistency with the bat, no?


He's doing what a leadoff man is supposed to do but I think his presence is also supporting the traditional thinking about hitter placement.



I wouldn't say that after just a month. Anyway, I think batting order is probably an overrated concern. The problem is, does a guy like Schwarber take a different approach because he believes he's supposed to.


I hope not. I guess that might be a concern when he's truly leading off, but after that, he's just getting more at-bats than anyone else in random order.


but if you are de valuing one at bat per game for a generational talent, that is a lot of deflation

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:39 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
So what's the verdict on him so far at leadoff ? He's doing the job OBO wise but needs a little more consistency with the bat, no?


He's doing what a leadoff man is supposed to do but I think his presence is also supporting the traditional thinking about hitter placement.



I wouldn't say that after just a month. Anyway, I think batting order is probably an overrated concern. The problem is, does a guy like Schwarber take a different approach because he believes he's supposed to.


I hope not. I guess that might be a concern when he's truly leading off, but after that, he's just getting more at-bats than anyone else in random order.


but if you are de valuing one at bat per game for a generational talent, that is a lot of deflation


If that's really happening, I would agree. I don't know that we have any evidence it is, though.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:41 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
So what's the verdict on him so far at leadoff ? He's doing the job OBO wise but needs a little more consistency with the bat, no?


He's doing what a leadoff man is supposed to do but I think his presence is also supporting the traditional thinking about hitter placement.



I wouldn't say that after just a month. Anyway, I think batting order is probably an overrated concern. The problem is, does a guy like Schwarber take a different approach because he believes he's supposed to.


So do you think his placement is revolutionizing the thought on placement?

I don't think you can make an argument that the leadoff spot has maximized his run producing potential.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:44 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
So what's the verdict on him so far at leadoff ? He's doing the job OBO wise but needs a little more consistency with the bat, no?


He's doing what a leadoff man is supposed to do but I think his presence is also supporting the traditional thinking about hitter placement.



I wouldn't say that after just a month. Anyway, I think batting order is probably an overrated concern. The problem is, does a guy like Schwarber take a different approach because he believes he's supposed to.


So do you think his placement is revolutionizing the thought on placement?

I don't think you can make an argument that the leadoff spot has maximized his run producing potential.


I don't think batting order has any real effect on production, and if it does, it's negligible. Generally speaking, I just want my best hitters to get more PA's and to have a varied approach among the order (lefty, righty, patient, free swinger, first pitch swinger, patient hitter, etc.)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:46 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
So what's the verdict on him so far at leadoff ? He's doing the job OBO wise but needs a little more consistency with the bat, no?


He's doing what a leadoff man is supposed to do but I think his presence is also supporting the traditional thinking about hitter placement.



I wouldn't say that after just a month. Anyway, I think batting order is probably an overrated concern. The problem is, does a guy like Schwarber take a different approach because he believes he's supposed to.


I hope not. I guess that might be a concern when he's truly leading off, but after that, he's just getting more at-bats than anyone else in random order.


Yes and no. The batter still has it in his mind that he has all these big bats behind him. So maybe he takes a different approach. As you say, you would hope that isn't the case, but that's the only real concern with batting a guy like him up top. These traditions are deeply ingrained.

If the goal is to score the most overall runs the batters should probably just be ordered from highest OPS to lowest.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:48 pm 
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I doubt Schwarber changes his approach based on where he bats. Doesn't look like Carlos Santana did last year and this year.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:51 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
I doubt Schwarber changes his approach based on where he bats. Doesn't look like Carlos Santana did last year and this year.



I suppose it depends on the guy. Swisher certainly did. But that could be due to the organizational obsession the Sox have with speed and bunting at the top of the order, something that dates back through the "Go Go" teams of the 50s all the way to the "Hitless Wonders".

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:54 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
badrogue17 wrote:
So what's the verdict on him so far at leadoff ? He's doing the job OBO wise but needs a little more consistency with the bat, no?


He's doing what a leadoff man is supposed to do but I think his presence is also supporting the traditional thinking about hitter placement.



I wouldn't say that after just a month. Anyway, I think batting order is probably an overrated concern. The problem is, does a guy like Schwarber take a different approach because he believes he's supposed to.


I hope not. I guess that might be a concern when he's truly leading off, but after that, he's just getting more at-bats than anyone else in random order.


Yes and no. The batter still has it in his mind that he has all these big bats behind him. So maybe he takes a different approach. As you say, you would hope that isn't the case, but that's the only real concern with batting a guy like him up top. These traditions are deeply ingrained.

If the goal is to score the most overall runs the batters should probably just be ordered from highest OPS to lowest.


Well, if it's due to the batters behind him, I wouldn't think it would change his approach much. Unless I'm misremembering, I don't think Schwarber ever spent a significant amount of time any lower in the order than second. He has always batted with Bryant, Rizzo, Zobrist, etc behind him. He batted second in the 2015 postseason, too, which is when he had his most success.

I guess we'll never really know, but I wouldn't move him unless his production starts to get bad... and then it's just more that I don't want a leadoff hitter who's hitting poorly.

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