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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:14 am 
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Cashman wrote:
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This morning on M&H, Peter Gammons flat out said the Cubs would not pay for Verlander even if it cost them no prospects. It was hard to tell whether he thought that was because they didn't think he was any good, or they were reluctant to spend.



Bernsie will start the show saying, This is what I was told. They have a plan, and they are going to stick to it.

In reality, Theo knows he doesn't have the prospects to maintain a trade to possibly make the playoffs this year.

he won't be on, Cubs game. They do have tradeable prospects, they just don't seem to have extra money.

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:18 am 
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City of Fools wrote:
[They do have tradeable prospects
Do they? They need every arm they can get, so they aren't trading pitching prospects. Schwarber is not tradeable now. You would not get much for Candelario. Willllllson is your primary catcher, so he probably isn't going anywhere. Do they move Happ, Almora, or Jimenez?

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:24 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
[They do have tradeable prospects
Do they? They need every arm they can get, so they aren't trading pitching prospects. Schwarber is not tradeable now. You would not get much for Candelario. Willllllson is your primary catcher, so he probably isn't going anywhere. Do they move Happ, Almora, or Jimenez?


Frank's right. Jimenez is probably only big bullet left that could get you anything of note and he would just be a keystone piece and not whole deal. More likely to see Montgomery type trades than a big deal.


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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:25 am 
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Cashman wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
This morning on M&H, Peter Gammons flat out said the Cubs would not pay for Verlander even if it cost them no prospects. It was hard to tell whether he thought that was because they didn't think he was any good, or they were reluctant to spend.



Bernsie will start the show saying, This is what I was told. They have a plan, and they are going to stick to it.

In reality, Theo knows he doesn't have the prospects to maintain a trade to possibly make the playoffs this year.



We need to clear this up. Is The Plan to contend for years to come or just once in awhile? Where is Elmhurst Steve when we desperately need this vital Cubs information?

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:28 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Cashman wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
This morning on M&H, Peter Gammons flat out said the Cubs would not pay for Verlander even if it cost them no prospects. It was hard to tell whether he thought that was because they didn't think he was any good, or they were reluctant to spend.



Bernsie will start the show saying, This is what I was told. They have a plan, and they are going to stick to it.

In reality, Theo knows he doesn't have the prospects to maintain a trade to possibly make the playoffs this year.



We need to clear this up. Is The Plan to contend for years to come or just once in awhile? Where is Elmhurst Steve when we desperately need this vital Cubs information?



How many years does Theo have on his contract, and minus the last year. Doubt he would be a lame duck GM.


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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:09 am 
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Guys killin it for Houston, Theo dropped the ball on this one..it was a no brainer.

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:14 am 
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5-0

1.06 era in Houston

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:16 am 
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I wonder if the same package for Quintana would have gotten Verlander.

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:05 am 
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Jbi11s wrote:
I wonder if the same package for Quintana would have gotten Verlander.

OMG....for sure. A big part of the Verlander deal was the amount of money owed him. They probably could have gotten him without Dylan Cease being included. The Quintana deal was made in large part with his club friendly deal in mind. No doubt, Verlander has performed very well and had the Cubs known he would perform at this level, rather than the more pedestrian level he had been at with Detroit, they might have made that deal. Hard to predict such a dramatic improvement for an athlete that appeared to be in decline.

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:17 am 
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Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
I wonder if the same package for Quintana would have gotten Verlander.

OMG....for sure. A big part of the Verlander deal was the amount of money owed him. They probably could have gotten him without Dylan Cease being included. The Quintana deal was made in large part with his club friendly deal in mind. No doubt, Verlander has performed very well and had the Cubs known he would perform at this level, rather than the more pedestrian level he had been at with Detroit, they might have made that deal. Hard to predict such a dramatic improvement for an athlete that appeared to be in decline.


Decline? He finished second in the AL CY Young voting 9 months ago shit for brains.


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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:55 am 
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Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
I wonder if the same package for Quintana would have gotten Verlander.

OMG....for sure. A big part of the Verlander deal was the amount of money owed him. They probably could have gotten him without Dylan Cease being included. The Quintana deal was made in large part with his club friendly deal in mind. No doubt, Verlander has performed very well and had the Cubs known he would perform at this level, rather than the more pedestrian level he had been at with Detroit, they might have made that deal. Hard to predict such a dramatic improvement for an athlete that appeared to be in decline.


but the Cubs have unlimited resources. They should have been able to take on any contract

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:41 pm 
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One Post wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
I wonder if the same package for Quintana would have gotten Verlander.

OMG....for sure. A big part of the Verlander deal was the amount of money owed him. They probably could have gotten him without Dylan Cease being included. The Quintana deal was made in large part with his club friendly deal in mind. No doubt, Verlander has performed very well and had the Cubs known he would perform at this level, rather than the more pedestrian level he had been at with Detroit, they might have made that deal. Hard to predict such a dramatic improvement for an athlete that appeared to be in decline.


Decline? He finished second in the AL CY Young voting 9 months ago shit for brains.


:lol

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:59 pm 
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One Post wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
I wonder if the same package for Quintana would have gotten Verlander.

OMG....for sure. A big part of the Verlander deal was the amount of money owed him. They probably could have gotten him without Dylan Cease being included. The Quintana deal was made in large part with his club friendly deal in mind. No doubt, Verlander has performed very well and had the Cubs known he would perform at this level, rather than the more pedestrian level he had been at with Detroit, they might have made that deal. Hard to predict such a dramatic improvement for an athlete that appeared to be in decline.


Decline? He finished second in the AL CY Young voting 9 months ago shit for brains.


Yeah asswipe and this season he was basically a .500 pitcher with Detroit with an ERA of a middle of the rotation starter. That's what they call decline dipshit.

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:11 pm 
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Elmhurst Steve wrote:
One Post wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
I wonder if the same package for Quintana would have gotten Verlander.

OMG....for sure. A big part of the Verlander deal was the amount of money owed him. They probably could have gotten him without Dylan Cease being included. The Quintana deal was made in large part with his club friendly deal in mind. No doubt, Verlander has performed very well and had the Cubs known he would perform at this level, rather than the more pedestrian level he had been at with Detroit, they might have made that deal. Hard to predict such a dramatic improvement for an athlete that appeared to be in decline.


Decline? He finished second in the AL CY Young voting 9 months ago shit for brains.


Yeah asswipe and this season he was basically a .500 pitcher with Detroit with an ERA of a middle of the rotation starter. That's what they call decline dipshit.

His Detroit ERA would rank 12th among all AL pitchers.


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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:18 pm 
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Verlander was just 10-8, with a pedestrian 3.82 ERA with Detroit, while collecting 28 million.....the 2nd highest salary in baseball. I don't blame Theo for not jumping on the opportunity to sign a guy making huge money, with 2 years left on a deal, when the guy was just 10-8, with a 3.82 ERA and would have involved moving a top prospect as well as taking on that huge salary.

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:31 pm 
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Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Verlander was just 10-8, with a pedestrian 3.82 ERA with Detroit, while collecting 28 million.....the 2nd highest salary in baseball. I don't blame Theo for not jumping on the opportunity to sign a guy making huge money, with 2 years left on a deal, when the guy was just 10-8, with a 3.82 ERA and would have involved moving a top prospect as well as taking on that huge salary.



You can't get out of your own way, that "pedestrian" ERA would have been good for 12th best in the AL, that isn't pedestrian, it means you are essentially a #1 or #2 starter...


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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:52 pm 
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Steve, what would you rather pay $28million for? A winning pitcher with an AL ERA in the high 3's, or a right fielder with a .669 OPS?

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:56 pm 
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I know people who do a good job of acting like they predicted something correct after the fact but Steve is redefining things by predicting something incorrect after the fact.

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:58 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Steve, what would you rather pay $28million for? A winning pitcher with an AL ERA in the high 3's, or a right fielder with a .669 OPS?


Or a Game 2 pitcher with an NL ERA in the 4's.

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:09 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I know people who do a good job of acting like they predicted something correct after the fact but Steve is redefining things by predicting something incorrect after the fact.
:lol:

I remember when I posted that I wouldn't say that this didn't happen and that maybe the decision might have been a good one!

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:22 pm 
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Verlander's 5 starts came against the Angels, Mariners and Rangers. Color me unimpressed.

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:32 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
One Post wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
I wonder if the same package for Quintana would have gotten Verlander.

OMG....for sure. A big part of the Verlander deal was the amount of money owed him. They probably could have gotten him without Dylan Cease being included. The Quintana deal was made in large part with his club friendly deal in mind. No doubt, Verlander has performed very well and had the Cubs known he would perform at this level, rather than the more pedestrian level he had been at with Detroit, they might have made that deal. Hard to predict such a dramatic improvement for an athlete that appeared to be in decline.


Decline? He finished second in the AL CY Young voting 9 months ago shit for brains.


Yeah asswipe and this season he was basically a .500 pitcher with Detroit with an ERA of a middle of the rotation starter. That's what they call decline dipshit.

His Detroit ERA would rank 12th among all AL pitchers.

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His Detroit ERA was an entirely different era.

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:09 pm 
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IMU wrote:
Verlander's 5 starts came against the Angels, Mariners and Rangers. Color me unimpressed.




Add Boston to your list.

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:16 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Steve, what would you rather pay $28million for? A winning pitcher with an AL ERA in the high 3's, or a right fielder with a .669 OPS?


I never wanted Heyward and his salary is ridiculous for a guy who averages about 12 homers and 60 RBI with a BA around .260 but with Arrieta likely to be moving on and Lackey likely to retire, there will be a void in the rotation in 2018 and Verlander could fill it better than most starters that will be available, so it would be an easy choice between the two. But I don't blame Theo and Jed for passing on a guy with an ERA almost 4 and a 10-8 record that makes 28 million and would have cost a top prospect. He went with the cost controlled, younger option. Seems like a pretty prudent move in many respects.

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:24 pm 
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One Post wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Verlander was just 10-8, with a pedestrian 3.82 ERA with Detroit, while collecting 28 million.....the 2nd highest salary in baseball. I don't blame Theo for not jumping on the opportunity to sign a guy making huge money, with 2 years left on a deal, when the guy was just 10-8, with a 3.82 ERA and would have involved moving a top prospect as well as taking on that huge salary.



You can't get out of your own way, that "pedestrian" ERA would have been good for 12th best in the AL, that isn't pedestrian, it means you are essentially a #1 or #2 starter...



On a shitty team a starter with a 3.80 ERA might be a #1. A guy making 28 million that can't even be in the top 10 in ERA, yet has the 2nd highest salary in baseball.......bad value. Again, he was in decline.....trending in a bad direction. No way of knowing he would rebound so well after the trade. Theo made a prudent decision with the information he had to work with.

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:31 am 
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Elmhurst Steve wrote:
One Post wrote:
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Verlander was just 10-8, with a pedestrian 3.82 ERA with Detroit, while collecting 28 million.....the 2nd highest salary in baseball. I don't blame Theo for not jumping on the opportunity to sign a guy making huge money, with 2 years left on a deal, when the guy was just 10-8, with a 3.82 ERA and would have involved moving a top prospect as well as taking on that huge salary.



You can't get out of your own way, that "pedestrian" ERA would have been good for 12th best in the AL, that isn't pedestrian, it means you are essentially a #1 or #2 starter...



On a shitty team a starter with a 3.80 ERA might be a #1. A guy making 28 million that can't even be in the top 10 in ERA, yet has the 2nd highest salary in baseball.......bad value. Again, he was in decline.....trending in a bad direction. No way of knowing he would rebound so well after the trade. Theo made a prudent decision with the information he had to work with.


Uh, he's the #1 starter on the Astros, a team that won 101 games.

He had a WAR of 4.5 during his portion of the season with the Tigers (for reference the Cubs wouldn't have had a pitcher with half that WAR at that point in the season), if he stopped pitching with is last start for the Tigers his WAR would still have been in the top 10 in the AL.

Just stop, if you think his contract isn't a good deal, that is something to consider, but a guy who just finished 2nd in the AL in WAR, 8th in ERA, 8th in wins, 3rd in IP, 6th in strikeouts, is a legit #1 starter on any team in MLB.

You're just a fucking dope if you don't understand that.

Not for nothing but you are probably wrong on his contract being not a good value. I think the number right now is that the cost of 1 additional WAR is like 10MM bucks on the open market. So if Verlander is a 6 WAR guy, that's 60MM of value on the open market.

You're a dunce.


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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:37 am 
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One Post wrote:
Just stop, if you think his contract isn't a good deal, that is something to consider, but a guy who just finished 2nd in the AL in WAR, 8th in ERA, 8th in wins, 3rd in IP, 6th in strikeouts, is a legit #1 starter on any team in MLB.

In 2016, Quintana was:

4th in WAR
12th in wins
7th in ERA
6th in IP
11th in strikeouts

So Quintana is then a fringe #1 or definitely a #2? I like it.

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:39 am 
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IMU wrote:
One Post wrote:
Just stop, if you think his contract isn't a good deal, that is something to consider, but a guy who just finished 2nd in the AL in WAR, 8th in ERA, 8th in wins, 3rd in IP, 6th in strikeouts, is a legit #1 starter on any team in MLB.

In 2016, Quintana was:

4th in WAR
12th in wins
7th in ERA
6th in IP
11th in strikeouts

So Quintana is then a fringe #1 or definitely a #2? I like it.


It's seems like this isn't a question for knowledgeable baseball people. Quintana is a great pitcher who, until this season, was perpetually getting better.

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:40 pm 
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IMU wrote:
One Post wrote:
Just stop, if you think his contract isn't a good deal, that is something to consider, but a guy who just finished 2nd in the AL in WAR, 8th in ERA, 8th in wins, 3rd in IP, 6th in strikeouts, is a legit #1 starter on any team in MLB.

In 2016, Quintana was:

4th in WAR
12th in wins
7th in ERA
6th in IP
11th in strikeouts

So Quintana is then a fringe #1 or definitely a #2? I like it.

And he makes less than 1/3 Verlander's salary. Much better value. Plus being younger and having his best perhaps still ahead, the more prudent choice all around.

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 Post subject: Re: Verlander to Cubs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:01 pm 
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Championship window though. Even the good teams have to rebuild. Quintana will probably be better than Verlander in 2019, but will it matter?

I'd feel a lot better with

Verlander
Hendricks
Lester
Arrieta


But whatever. Go Cubs.


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