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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:37 pm 
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what do you think Arrieta's goal is tonight, to go out and give normal five? or go an and do something exceptional, maybe seven or eight innings of zero or one run ball? there is no way he or any of the cubs starters at the beginning of this series were aiming to do five decent innings and leave it to the bullpens. and so far all of them have disappointed. this PALES in comparison to the hitting issues and the terrible bullpen issues, but they shouldn't get a free pass.


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:51 pm 
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man of few opinions wrote:
IMU wrote:
It is the postseason. 5 IP is pretty much normal for every starter.


this team i am sure expected more than 5, 4.2, and 5 from those guys and there is nothing about any of those performances that were "amazing". they were all a letdown when they needed a lockdown. especially when everyone knows getting to the cubs bullpen was essential. All three of those guys knew they had to go out and pitch deep and none of them could. ESPECIALLY lester, his start was a particularly huge disappointment.

Lester was on 3 days rest. Not sure you could expect much more.


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:00 pm 
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MartyD47 wrote:
This team is in trouble over the next few years, holes all over the roster. The saving grace is they play in the NL.

That's overstating it just a bit, Marty.

They have a core of Rizzo, Bryant, Hendricks, Quintana, Russell, Contreras, Baez and Happ.

That's not even counting Lester or Schwarber (or whatever he turns into via trade)


Basically, they'll have to replace Arietta and Jay and add some bullpen arms.


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:02 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
MartyD47 wrote:
This team is in trouble over the next few years, holes all over the roster. The saving grace is they play in the NL.

That's overstating it just a bit, Marty.

They have a core of Rizzo, Bryant, Hendricks, Quintana, Russell, Contreras, Baez and Happ.

That's not even counting Lester or Schwarber (or whatever he turns into via trade)


Basically, they'll have to replace Arietta and Jay and add some bullpen arms.

Their entire infield is set for a few years . That’s not multiple holes .

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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:04 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
man of few opinions wrote:
IMU wrote:
It is the postseason. 5 IP is pretty much normal for every starter.


this team i am sure expected more than 5, 4.2, and 5 from those guys and there is nothing about any of those performances that were "amazing". they were all a letdown when they needed a lockdown. especially when everyone knows getting to the cubs bullpen was essential. All three of those guys knew they had to go out and pitch deep and none of them could. ESPECIALLY lester, his start was a particularly huge disappointment.

Lester was on 3 days rest. Not sure you could expect much more.


that's fair, but at the same time if that is the best we could have expected for our "ace" with all the playoff experience, our expectations got seriously watered down somewhere along the line.


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:05 pm 
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Mofo and Frank owning IMU in a baseball debate. Didn't expect to see that when I clicked on the thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:08 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
"5 innings is normal" is not the same thing as 'Amazing' starting pitching.

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#e ... 8&split=sp

Image

Their starters are averaging as many IP per game as the Dodgers, and only 2 outs per start less than Houston. The results are better than any team that still remains, and at the time Washington was eliminated, the best in the postseason. The Cubs have had the best starting pitching in the postseason. Being the single best out of 10 (or 8 teams) is amazing.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:11 pm 
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I'm not a fan of Russell or Hendricks and let's see what they are left with position player wise after trades to upgrade the staff. They are in a very tricky spot going forward.


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:12 pm 
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IMU wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
"5 innings is normal" is not the same thing as 'Amazing' starting pitching.

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#e ... 8&split=sp

Image

Their starters are averaging as many IP per game as the Dodgers, and only 2 outs per start less than Houston. The results are better than any team that still remains, and at the time Washington was eliminated, the best in the postseason. The Cubs have had the best starting pitching in the postseason. Being the single best out of 10 (or 8 teams) is amazing.


Stats are deceiving in this case.


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:13 pm 
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MartyD47 wrote:
I'm not a fan of Russell or Hendricks and let's see what they are left with position player wise after trades to upgrade the staff. They are in a very tricky spot going forward.

:lol: you think they are trading one of their starting infeild?

Get that weak shit out of here.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:14 pm 
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MartyD47 wrote:
I'm not a fan of Russell or Hendricks and let's see what they are left with position player wise after trades to upgrade the staff. They are in a very tricky spot going forward.

Hendricks is a pitcher so they are always iffy by nature.

Russell is a solid player at the very least. Great defender with pop. Barring injuries, that's his floor.


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:19 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
MartyD47 wrote:
I'm not a fan of Russell or Hendricks and let's see what they are left with position player wise after trades to upgrade the staff. They are in a very tricky spot going forward.

:lol: you think they are trading one of their starting infeild?

Get that weak shit out of here.


I don't think you can get a frontline starter without trading one of the middle infielders.


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:22 pm 
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MartyD47 wrote:
RFDC wrote:
MartyD47 wrote:
I'm not a fan of Russell or Hendricks and let's see what they are left with position player wise after trades to upgrade the staff. They are in a very tricky spot going forward.

:lol: you think they are trading one of their starting infeild?

Get that weak shit out of here.


I don't think you can get a frontline starter without trading one of the middle infielders.

Not sure many front line starters will be available via trade. That is probably a Free Agent thing.


Who do you think has a better next 3 years? Tim Anderson or Russell?


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:23 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
MartyD47 wrote:
I'm not a fan of Russell or Hendricks and let's see what they are left with position player wise after trades to upgrade the staff. They are in a very tricky spot going forward.

Hendricks is a pitcher so they are always iffy by nature.

Russell is a solid player at the very least. Great defender with pop. Barring injuries, that's his floor.

two of their better playoff performers and you want them gone?! what is wrong with people.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:27 pm 
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City of Fools wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
MartyD47 wrote:
I'm not a fan of Russell or Hendricks and let's see what they are left with position player wise after trades to upgrade the staff. They are in a very tricky spot going forward.

Hendricks is a pitcher so they are always iffy by nature.

Russell is a solid player at the very least. Great defender with pop. Barring injuries, that's his floor.

two of their better playoff performers and you want them gone?! what is wrong with people.

He is a Sox fan trying to position himself for sargent of the subdivision

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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:28 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
MartyD47 wrote:
RFDC wrote:
MartyD47 wrote:
I'm not a fan of Russell or Hendricks and let's see what they are left with position player wise after trades to upgrade the staff. They are in a very tricky spot going forward.

:lol: you think they are trading one of their starting infeild?

Get that weak shit out of here.


I don't think you can get a frontline starter without trading one of the middle infielders.

Not sure many front line starters will be available via trade. That is probably a Free Agent thing.


Who do you think has a better next 3 years? Tim Anderson or Russell?

I thought there weren't any front end starters in FA this year?

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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:30 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
MartyD47 wrote:
RFDC wrote:
MartyD47 wrote:
I'm not a fan of Russell or Hendricks and let's see what they are left with position player wise after trades to upgrade the staff. They are in a very tricky spot going forward.

:lol: you think they are trading one of their starting infeild?

Get that weak shit out of here.


I don't think you can get a frontline starter without trading one of the middle infielders.

Not sure many front line starters will be available via trade. That is probably a Free Agent thing.


Who do you think has a better next 3 years? Tim Anderson or Russell?

I thought there weren't any front end starters in FA this year?


There is good pitching available. Cubs don't necessarily need a #1. There are plenty of 2-3 guys out there to be had.


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:31 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
MartyD47 wrote:
RFDC wrote:
MartyD47 wrote:
I'm not a fan of Russell or Hendricks and let's see what they are left with position player wise after trades to upgrade the staff. They are in a very tricky spot going forward.

:lol: you think they are trading one of their starting infeild?

Get that weak shit out of here.


I don't think you can get a frontline starter without trading one of the middle infielders.

Not sure many front line starters will be available via trade. That is probably a Free Agent thing.


Who do you think has a better next 3 years? Tim Anderson or Russell?

I thought there weren't any front end starters in FA this year?

Id take Yu Darvish but I should have clarified.

I didnt mean they'd get front end starter. I dont think the Cubs will be adding a front line guy. I think they will sign a back of the rotation guy.


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:43 pm 
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MartyD47 wrote:
IMU wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
"5 innings is normal" is not the same thing as 'Amazing' starting pitching.

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#e ... 8&split=sp

Image

Their starters are averaging as many IP per game as the Dodgers, and only 2 outs per start less than Houston. The results are better than any team that still remains, and at the time Washington was eliminated, the best in the postseason. The Cubs have had the best starting pitching in the postseason. Being the single best out of 10 (or 8 teams) is amazing.


Stats are deceiving in this case.

So says someone whose stance is supported by nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:50 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
MartyD47 wrote:
RFDC wrote:
MartyD47 wrote:
I'm not a fan of Russell or Hendricks and let's see what they are left with position player wise after trades to upgrade the staff. They are in a very tricky spot going forward.

:lol: you think they are trading one of their starting infeild?

Get that weak shit out of here.


I don't think you can get a frontline starter without trading one of the middle infielders.

Not sure many front line starters will be available via trade. That is probably a Free Agent thing.


Who do you think has a better next 3 years? Tim Anderson or Russell?


I like Anderson's upside more than Russell's. I'll take Anderson understanding it comes with considerable risk. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:53 pm 
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IMU wrote:
MartyD47 wrote:
IMU wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
"5 innings is normal" is not the same thing as 'Amazing' starting pitching.

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#e ... 8&split=sp

Image

Their starters are averaging as many IP per game as the Dodgers, and only 2 outs per start less than Houston. The results are better than any team that still remains, and at the time Washington was eliminated, the best in the postseason. The Cubs have had the best starting pitching in the postseason. Being the single best out of 10 (or 8 teams) is amazing.


Stats are deceiving in this case.

So says someone whose stance is supported by nothing.


I have a database of over 6,000 MLB games observed.


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:57 pm 
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MartyD47 wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
MartyD47 wrote:
RFDC wrote:
MartyD47 wrote:
I'm not a fan of Russell or Hendricks and let's see what they are left with position player wise after trades to upgrade the staff. They are in a very tricky spot going forward.

:lol: you think they are trading one of their starting infeild?

Get that weak shit out of here.


I don't think you can get a frontline starter without trading one of the middle infielders.

Not sure many front line starters will be available via trade. That is probably a Free Agent thing.


Who do you think has a better next 3 years? Tim Anderson or Russell?


I like Anderson's upside more than Russell's. I'll take Anderson understanding it comes with considerable risk. :D


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:02 pm 
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The Cubs are not the best in WHIP, Walks, or the most important playoff stat, wins. What you posted is also relative to the other teams. I refuse to call outings of 5 innings, 4.2 innings, and 5+ innings with zero wins "Amazing." I highly doubt that if the Cubs did that in May against the Braves that you would call it "amazing," and if you did, you would be wrong, IMU.

The Cubs had very good starting pitching for 4 of the 5 NLDS games. Hendricks in Game 1, and Lester were indeed amazing against the Nats. The starting pitching in the NLCS has not been amazing. If it was, your team probably would not be in an 0-3 hole.

Still want to claim that Carl Edwards has not been awful this postseason, or after a bases loaded walk to a pitcher, are you willing to concede that point?

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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:13 pm 
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IMU wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
"5 innings is normal" is not the same thing as 'Amazing' starting pitching.

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#e ... 8&split=sp

Image

Their starters are averaging as many IP per game as the Dodgers, and only 2 outs per start less than Houston. The results are better than any team that still remains, and at the time Washington was eliminated, the best in the postseason. The Cubs have had the best starting pitching in the postseason. Being the single best out of 10 (or 8 teams) is amazing.


throw all the numbers you want at it, but it doesn't erase the fact that the cubs starting pitching has failed to pitch deep enough to protect the Cubs from the opposition pummeling their terrible bullpen. But hey, I personally hope Jake has an equally amazing 100-pitch 5 inning domination of the Dodgers tonight. I am sure that is all Jake and Maddon and the whole team is looking for him to do. I doubt they are hoping for him to step up and pitch 7 solid, they just want a normal 5 innings.


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:06 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Still want to claim that Carl Edwards has not been awful this postseason, or after a bases loaded walk to a pitcher, are you willing to concede that point?

Look at my avatar.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:48 pm 
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IMU wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Still want to claim that Carl Edwards has not been awful this postseason, or after a bases loaded walk to a pitcher, are you willing to concede that point?

Look at my avatar.


Proper move.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:24 pm 
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Now THAT was a legit starting pitching performance they needed. Fuck that weak-ass five inning “but their ERA is so good” bullshit. Jake stepped up like a man tonight.


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:31 pm 
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man of few opinions wrote:
Now THAT was a legit starting pitching performance they needed. Fuck that weak-ass five inning “but their ERA is so good” bullshit. Jake stepped up like a man tonight.

Absolutely.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:38 pm 
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man of few opinions wrote:
Now THAT was a legit starting pitching performance they needed. Fuck that weak-ass five inning “but their ERA is so good” bullshit. Jake stepped up like a man tonight.

Give him ALL the money


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 Post subject: Re: Who's to Blame?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:44 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
man of few opinions wrote:
Now THAT was a legit starting pitching performance they needed. Fuck that weak-ass five inning “but their ERA is so good” bullshit. Jake stepped up like a man tonight.

Give him ALL the money


I did get a bit emotional seeing him walk off the field there. He did a lot for us. hope he goes to the AL.


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