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When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?
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Author:  Kirkwood [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

City of Fools wrote:
I think the Sox are going to attempt what the Cubs would not...fill in with free agents and try to be competitive WHILE they rebuild. I could see them TRYING to contend by 2018, for sure. They will spend. The Cubs would not.

da fuck are you talking about? that was the past 3-4 years!

rebuilt with young guys in Sale/Quintana/Abreu/Rodon/Eaton

and then tried filling in with free agents/trades - Melky, Robertson, LaRoche, Shark, Frazier, Lawrie

Author:  whiskey dick [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

Just a reminder that anyone with the word fan in their username likely has AIDS.

Author:  Rod [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

First, I don't want to come off as an apologist for Reinsdorf as I have a lot of issues with the way he runs a franchise. But the Sox clearly don't have the same resources as the Cubs. No big market team ever broke it down like the Cubs did.

The Sox aren't doing that now either. They may have some bad seasons suffering through young guys, but that's normal rebuilding. The Yankees and Red Sox have gone through that without losing on purpose.

I realize it's a fine distinction and ultimately a shitty team is a shitty team. But if somehow the Sox are close to the lead in July (Remember, they still have one of the best pitchers in baseball in Quintana :lol: ), I think they'll try to win rather than just flipping that pitcher in the interest of following The Plan.

Author:  City of Fools [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

Kirkwood wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
I think the Sox are going to attempt what the Cubs would not...fill in with free agents and try to be competitive WHILE they rebuild. I could see them TRYING to contend by 2018, for sure. They will spend. The Cubs would not.

da fuck are you talking about? that was the past 3-4 years!

rebuilt with young guys in Sale/Quintana/Abreu/Rodon/Eaton

and then tried filling in with free agents/trades - Melky, Robertson, LaRoche, Shark, Frazier, Lawrie

they're rebuilding their farm system with other people's draft picks. This is different. I think they'll trade the minimum they need to flush new talent in the system, suck for a year, evaluate their system and start plugging holes they still have in the minors with a free agent or two.

Author:  Brick [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

FavreFan wrote:
Attempting to be competitive = trying to fill out as many holes in your roster as possible. It does not mean bringing up 5 guys in their first or maybe 2nd year of MLB and having nothing else.
Quantify it though. That is incredibly vague. Does it mean spending in free agency?

FavreFan wrote:
Let's be clear. Are you disagreeing with Rick Hahn and saying that the team already is three years ahead of schedule?
Of course Rick Hahn will be preaching patience.

To me, attempting to be competitive is putting your best roster out there rather than having them sit in the minors, and not having an abnormally low payroll. I think the minors will not have MLB ready talent by the middle of 2018, and by 2019 the payroll will be at the level you would expect for a team like the White Sox if not by 2018 if the talent in the minors looks good and can be added to with guys on a 3 or 4 year deal.

So, the answer is they start to try and be competitive by 2018, with them really doing it by 2019 based on how well the minor league players work out.

Author:  Brick [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

FavreFan wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
The last big free agent splash the sox made was 20 years ago! :lol:

Did you not see Rick's post? They will make a dozen big signings next summer and be geared up to go in 2018!
So I guess you just want to whine and complain. Good luck!

Author:  Gloopan Kuratz [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

2005

Author:  Kirkwood [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

City of Fools wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
I think the Sox are going to attempt what the Cubs would not...fill in with free agents and try to be competitive WHILE they rebuild. I could see them TRYING to contend by 2018, for sure. They will spend. The Cubs would not.

da fuck are you talking about? that was the past 3-4 years!

rebuilt with young guys in Sale/Quintana/Abreu/Rodon/Eaton

and then tried filling in with free agents/trades - Melky, Robertson, LaRoche, Shark, Frazier, Lawrie

they're rebuilding their farm system with other people's draft picks. This is different. I think they'll trade the minimum they need to flush new talent in the system, suck for a year, evaluate their system and start plugging holes they still have in the minors with a free agent or two.

and who the hell picked Rizzo, Russell, Hendricks??? :lol:

Author:  good dolphin [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

FavreFan wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I believe they will attempt to be competitive in 2018. A one year rebuild isn't that big of a deal.

You're wrong. There is absolutely nothing so far over the past week suggesting they want to be competitive in 2018.


5 of the 7 players they acquired have an ETA of 2018 or before

So?

Your post isn't a rebuttal to mine. If you wanted it to be, please elaborate so I can respond to something.


You asked when will they attempt to be competitive. They are attempting to be competitive in 2018. In their minds (and that is what an attempt is) they are going to be set in 2018 up the middle with Collins, Anderson and Moncada and Tilson. In their minds they will have a rotation of Rodon, Giolito, Lopez, Kopech and Fulmer. The bullpen will be staffed by Burdi at the back end. None of these are stretches for 2018 according to scout ETA.

The indefinites at this moment are Quintana, Abreu, Robertson and Frazier and the 2017 draft. My scenario leaves open the corners of the IF and OF. I think they believe they will acquire players through trades and draft to fill those positions. The positions not filled for 2018 can be filled with FA because of the low salaries of the rest of the team.

Now, these are all rookies and young players, so they will not be championship caliber but I do think the sox believe they will be competitive.

Have at it

Author:  FavreFan [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Attempting to be competitive = trying to fill out as many holes in your roster as possible. It does not mean bringing up 5 guys in their first or maybe 2nd year of MLB and having nothing else.
Quantify it though. That is incredibly vague. Does it mean spending in free agency?

I disagree. It doesnt really get much less vague than "trying to fill out as many holes in your roster as possible". That is done via trades and free agency. Let's not overcomplicate this. It simply means putting the best team on the field as possible. That doesn't happen without trading your best prospects or else be willing to, neither of which the Sox will do next winter.

Quote:
To me, attempting to be competitive is putting your best roster out there rather than having them sit in the minors, and not having an abnormally low payroll. I think the minors will not have MLB ready talent by the middle of 2018, and by 2019 the payroll will be at the level you would expect for a team like the White Sox if not by 2018 if the talent in the minors looks good and can be added to with guys on a 3 or 4 year deal.

So, the answer is they start to try and be competitive by 2018, with them really doing it by 2019 based on how well the minor league players work out.

I answered this part with my last sentence in the above quote, but it sounds like you have a pie in the sky scenario where the Sox get competitive by 2018 without giving up any top prospects, and you also seem unwilling to acknowledge how many FA signings it would take if they were to refuse to part with those prospects.

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
The last big free agent splash the sox made was 20 years ago! :lol:

Did you not see Rick's post? They will make a dozen big signings next summer and be geared up to go in 2018!
So I guess you just want to whine and complain. Good luck!

Please see the above explanation and form a coherent rebuttal instead of trying to distract.

Author:  WaitingforRuffcorn [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

Quote:
Once the 2016 season ended, the White Sox’s brass -- led by owner Jerry Reinsdorf, president Ken Williams and GM Rick Hahn -- decided they would go into full rebuild mode and were expecting to accept the five- to six-year timetable it takes to get turned around, as proven recently by teams like the Cubs, Astros and Nationals. However, within a 24-hour period, they made two blockbuster trades that many are calling the best rebuild trades in the history of baseball, with almost unanimous views from the 30 GMs that they couldn’t have done any better in their trades for Chris Sale and Adam Eaton. Those trades were so good, many think they’ll take two years off their expected rebuild timetable. These are Hahn’s best two trades of his career, and they probably solidified his long-term future as the White Sox GM.


http://www.espn.com/blog/the-gms-office ... t?id=13522

Jim Bowden says three years now. Since most of the top guys are "almost" major league ready I would guess that they are aiming for the 2019 season to be competitive. Next season they are going for the number one draft pick.

Rodon, Fulmer, Kopech, Giolito, Lopez, Dunning, Hansen. Should be able to make a pretty good rotation out of that group if the scouts are right. They need a good defensive catcher. Saw that no one had more strikes called balls than Rodon last season.

Author:  FavreFan [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

good dolphin wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I believe they will attempt to be competitive in 2018. A one year rebuild isn't that big of a deal.

You're wrong. There is absolutely nothing so far over the past week suggesting they want to be competitive in 2018.


5 of the 7 players they acquired have an ETA of 2018 or before

So?

Your post isn't a rebuttal to mine. If you wanted it to be, please elaborate so I can respond to something.


You asked when will they attempt to be competitive. They are attempting to be competitive in 2018. In their minds (and that is what an attempt is) they are going to be set in 2018 up the middle with Collins, Anderson and Moncada and Tilson. In their minds they will have a rotation of Rodon, Giolito, Lopez, Kopech and Fulmer. The bullpen will be staffed by Burdi at the back end. None of these are stretches for 2018 according to scout ETA.

The indefinites at this moment are Quintana, Abreu, Robertson and Frazier and the 2017 draft. My scenario leaves open the corners of the IF and OF. I think they believe they will acquire players through trades and draft to fill those positions. The positions not filled for 2018 can be filled with FA because of the low salaries of the rest of the team.

Now, these are all rookies and young players, so they will not be championship caliber but I do think the sox believe they will be competitive.

Have at it

Fair enough.

Tilson is trash. If he is part of any type of core that is a major problem, but I dont think he is.

The entire starting 5 you named are all wild card lotto tickets ( Rodon, Giolito, Lopez, Kopech and Fulmer. ). As is Collins, and to a lesser degree Moncada, although he better be damn good.

So you are trying to tell me they are attempting to be competitive 17 months from now without one proven top of the line starter, zero other starters who have shown any MLB success, almost no outfield, and half the infield(outside of Anderson and Moncada) are up in the air. Who knows if Collins can turn out as a Catcher also, but I doubt it given what I've read.

On top of this, the GM responsible for this entire plan says it will be 2020 or later.

I wish you a lot more than luck on your dreams here, my friend.

Author:  City of Fools [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

Kirkwood wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
I think the Sox are going to attempt what the Cubs would not...fill in with free agents and try to be competitive WHILE they rebuild. I could see them TRYING to contend by 2018, for sure. They will spend. The Cubs would not.

da fuck are you talking about? that was the past 3-4 years!

rebuilt with young guys in Sale/Quintana/Abreu/Rodon/Eaton

and then tried filling in with free agents/trades - Melky, Robertson, LaRoche, Shark, Frazier, Lawrie

they're rebuilding their farm system with other people's draft picks. This is different. I think they'll trade the minimum they need to flush new talent in the system, suck for a year, evaluate their system and start plugging holes they still have in the minors with a free agent or two.

and who the hell picked Rizzo, Russell, Hendricks??? :lol:

that's not the different part! The different part is the Cubs wouldn't spend on any major free agents other than a pitcher I shall not name. The Sox are going to spend in free agency in 2018. that's my opinion. Year 2.

Author:  Keyser Soze [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

Spencer Adams will be part of the future rotation. Lopez and Hansen (if he makes it at all) will be in the bullpen.

Author:  Matches Malone [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

Depends on the rest of the division as well.

How long is Cleveland's window? Do the Tigers and Royals do their own tear downs in the next year or two as well? How far away is Minnesota?

Author:  badrogue17 [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

Sox nation seems to think most of those prospects are going to hit. Seems realistic .

Author:  FavreFan [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

badrogue17 wrote:
Sox nation seems to think most of those prospects are going to hit. Seems realistic .

Please go easy on those generalizations my friend.

Author:  Hatchetman [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

spencer adams :lol: guy throws 88

Author:  Rod [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

Keyser Soze wrote:
Spencer Adams will be part of the future rotation. Lopez and Hansen (if he makes it at all) will be in the bullpen.


I think there's a pretty good chance Lopez starts this season in the rotation.

Author:  leashyourkids [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

badrogue17 wrote:
Sox nation seems to think most of those prospects are going to hit. Seems realistic .


Babe Moncada

Author:  FavreFan [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
Spencer Adams will be part of the future rotation. Lopez and Hansen (if he makes it at all) will be in the bullpen.


I think there's a pretty good chance Lopez starts this season in the rotation.

Ive always wanted to go to a AAA game and never had the chance. You got my ticket this year?

Author:  FavreFan [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

Matches Malone wrote:
Depends on the rest of the division as well.

How long is Cleveland's window? Do the Tigers and Royals do their own tear downs in the next year or two as well? How far away is Minnesota?

I'm not sure windows matter. Let's remember that the Sox still have the same guys in charge who haven't put together a playoff team since 2008.

Author:  sjboyd0137 [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

Darkside wrote:
sjboyd0137 wrote:
2037

Next question.

What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?


African or European?

Author:  good dolphin [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

FavreFan wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I believe they will attempt to be competitive in 2018. A one year rebuild isn't that big of a deal.

You're wrong. There is absolutely nothing so far over the past week suggesting they want to be competitive in 2018.


5 of the 7 players they acquired have an ETA of 2018 or before

So?

Your post isn't a rebuttal to mine. If you wanted it to be, please elaborate so I can respond to something.


You asked when will they attempt to be competitive. They are attempting to be competitive in 2018. In their minds (and that is what an attempt is) they are going to be set in 2018 up the middle with Collins, Anderson and Moncada and Tilson. In their minds they will have a rotation of Rodon, Giolito, Lopez, Kopech and Fulmer. The bullpen will be staffed by Burdi at the back end. None of these are stretches for 2018 according to scout ETA.

The indefinites at this moment are Quintana, Abreu, Robertson and Frazier and the 2017 draft. My scenario leaves open the corners of the IF and OF. I think they believe they will acquire players through trades and draft to fill those positions. The positions not filled for 2018 can be filled with FA because of the low salaries of the rest of the team.

Now, these are all rookies and young players, so they will not be championship caliber but I do think the sox believe they will be competitive.

Have at it

Fair enough.

Tilson is trash. If he is part of any type of core that is a major problem, but I dont think he is.

The entire starting 5 you named are all wild card lotto tickets ( Rodon, Giolito, Lopez, Kopech and Fulmer. ). As is Collins, and to a lesser degree Moncada, although he better be damn good.

So you are trying to tell me they are attempting to be competitive 17 months from now without one proven top of the line starter, zero other starters who have shown any MLB success, almost no outfield, and half the infield(outside of Anderson and Moncada) are up in the air. Who knows if Collins can turn out as a Catcher also, but I doubt it given what I've read.

On top of this, the GM responsible for this entire plan says it will be 2020 or later.

I wish you a lot more than luck on your dreams here, my friend.


You asked when they will attempt to be competitive. I am giving you a scenario where they are attempting. You don't agree with it but it IS an attempt to be COMPETITIVE (and remember what that standard is).

You get the benefit of being able to both eliminate Quintana from the discussion AND any return he might bring. This heavily skews things. What if they choose to keep him. Now you have a front line starter, another who has shown a lot (including an AL pitcher of the month last year), the top pitching prospect in MLB, a guy who just dominated the minor league showcase league and a host of other very good options. If they choose not to keep him, I fully expect that they will be getting an MLB ready prospect + in return.

Think about how the Joe Sheehan types were hailing the Cubs as the team of the 2010s, with fewer quality players who were at lower minor league levels.

Author:  leashyourkids [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

I find it disheartening that the Sox fanbase, who I have always respected, is content with just being competitive.

Author:  good dolphin [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

badrogue17 wrote:
Sox nation seems to think most of those prospects are going to hit. Seems realistic .


I don't expect any of the pitchers to hit very well

Author:  Hatchetman [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

Stockholm syndrome.

Author:  good dolphin [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

leashyourkids wrote:
I find it disheartening that the Sox fanbase, who I have always respected, is content with just being competitive.


He asked about competitive.

If he asked championship caliber, I would have said 2019. I would not say they are going to win a championship because of inherent variation in MLB playoffs, just that they will be of a level to win.

Author:  Brick [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

FavreFan wrote:
I disagree. It doesnt really get much less vague than "trying to fill out as many holes in your roster as possible". That is done via trades and free agency. Let's not overcomplicate this. It simply means putting the best team on the field as possible. That doesn't happen without trading your best prospects or else be willing to, neither of which the Sox will do next winter.
They will try and fill as many holes as possible by 2019, with a good portion of that coming from expected minor league talent in 2018 and then some free agents and more talent from the minors during 2019.

I predict these things:
1) 3 of the players they traded for will be on the team as permanent members by the all star break in 2018.
2) 5 of the players they traded for or will be trading for(Quintana and/or Abreu) will be on the team as permanent members during the 2019 season.
3) They will be selectively active in free agency in 2018 signing guys who should be good for the next 3 or 4 years.
4) They will be more active in 2019 assuming the team shows potential in 2018.

Now give your timeline and we can compare.

Author:  FavreFan [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When Will The Sox Attempt To Be Competitive Again?

good dolphin wrote:

You asked when they will attempt to be competitive. I am giving you a scenario where they are attempting. You don't agree with it but it IS an attempt to be COMPETITIVE (and remember what that standard is).

You get the benefit of being able to both eliminate Quintana from the discussion AND any return he might bring. This heavily skews things. What if they choose to keep him. Now you have a front line starter, another who has shown a lot (including an AL pitcher of the month last year), the top pitching prospect in MLB, a guy who just dominated the minor league showcase league and a host of other very good options. If they choose not to keep him, I fully expect that they will be getting an MLB ready prospect + in return.

Think about how the Joe Sheehan types were hailing the Cubs as the team of the 2010s, with fewer quality players who were at lower minor league levels.

You gave me a scenario, but that scenario had zero realistic chance of being competitive unless we want to turn into Cub fans and say all our prospects will hit.

Keep Q or trade him for other high level prospects. Either way it makes no nevermind to me. You either get a .500 pitcher with good peripheral stats to front your rotation, or a wildly inconsistent lottery ticket in Rodon.

I'm not particularly concerned with the Cubs as far as this discussion goes.

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