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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 11:38 am 
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old white guy who has always liked Timmy and still does.

The problem is, he willingly took on the mantle of leadership. He didn't have to do it, he chose. That includes many responsibilities, including self denial and restraint. Then he had his problems and injuries that lingered a curious amount of time. His head isn't right for the role he chose. He is lost spiritually.

So now the team is leaderless. An ass kicker as a teammate would have demanded more from Moncada and Eloy. I thought that's what we had in Lynn, but apparently not. Abreu was given that last contract because he was supposed to be the old leader of the growing cuban group on the team. He just seemed like an enabler who, rather than teaching them professionalism, wanted to be well liked.

I thought Hendriks was supposed to be that guy as well. I know he's been gone all year but I thought he was one of those red asses who wouldn't accept people not preparing for success.

But, when we talk about whether a manager matters, this is where a manager matters.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 11:40 am 
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He did seem disgruntled about shaving his beard. He said he didn't want to shave it. I think his point was "it's a rule and, even if I don't like it, I'm still going to do it." I just happen to think the no facial hair rule is a stupid rule. If you want to improve White Sox discipline, how about starting with a rule that says you have to stay awake during games and follow up that rule with another one saying you have to show up to practice?

However, I think we can all agree on JORR's last point.


Last edited by Warren Newson on Mon Aug 07, 2023 11:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 11:40 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
old white guy who has always liked Timmy and still does.

The problem is, he willingly took on the mantle of leadership. He didn't have to do it, he chose. That includes many responsibilities, including self denial and restraint. Then he had his problems and injuries that lingered a curious amount of time. His head isn't right for the role he chose. He is lost spiritually.

So now the team is leaderless. An ass kicker as a teammate would have demanded more from Moncada and Eloy. I thought that's what we had in Lynn, but apparently not. Abreu was given that last contract because he was supposed to be the old leader of the growing cuban group on the team. He just seemed like an enabler who, rather than teaching them professionalism, wanted to be well liked.

I thought Hendriks was supposed to be that guy as well. I know he's been gone all year but I thought he was one of those red asses who wouldn't accept people not preparing for success.

But, when we talk about whether a manager matters, this is where a manager matters.


So much for Legends of Grifol, huh? Pick a lane John Kerry


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 11:40 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
I didn't read Middleton's comments as having anything to do with bat flipping or the appearance of the players. He was calling out a general lack of discipline and the failure of management to articulate clear rules and then enforce those rules.


Right, but that's all part and parcel of a culture. He talked about shaving his beard for the Yankees. The Sox take the field looking like homeless bums and wearing a variety of colors that is anything but uniform. Middleton sounds like a guy begging for structure that doesn't exist in the White Sox organization.


Again, he wasn't tying the physical appearance of the players to the lack of discipline or structure. In fact, he said he didn't want to shave his beard.

If you had a guy who showed up on time, followed the rules, and was a good teammate, would you cut him because he had blue hair and liked to flip his bat? If the Sox came on the field looking like a bunch of accountants, would they play better? You don't need physical uniformity or a strict prohibition on bat flipping to be a tight and well disciplined team.


I think he was. If not, why mention shaving his beard at all? If what you say is true, shouldn't he be disgruntled about being forced to shave his beard? Instead, he seems to understand the rules and structures the Yankees have in place and his belief that they foster a winning culture.

I'm not even saying I agree. The Gashouse Gang were drunks in dirty jerseys. The A's had ridiculous facial hair and circus uniforms. But the culture either matters or it doesn't. I tend to think the Sox suck because they don't hit well or pitch well. Not because of a lack or rules or who the manager is.


I think what he really meant was rules about showing up for baseball things like practice, excercise and physical therapy.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 11:43 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
old white guy who has always liked Timmy and still does.

The problem is, he willingly took on the mantle of leadership. He didn't have to do it, he chose. That includes many responsibilities, including self denial and restraint. Then he had his problems and injuries that lingered a curious amount of time. His head isn't right for the role he chose. He is lost spiritually.

So now the team is leaderless. An ass kicker as a teammate would have demanded more from Moncada and Eloy. I thought that's what we had in Lynn, but apparently not. Abreu was given that last contract because he was supposed to be the old leader of the growing cuban group on the team. He just seemed like an enabler who, rather than teaching them professionalism, wanted to be well liked.

I thought Hendriks was supposed to be that guy as well. I know he's been gone all year but I thought he was one of those red asses who wouldn't accept people not preparing for success.

But, when we talk about whether a manager matters, this is where a manager matters.


So much for Legends of Grifol, huh? Pick a lane John Kerry


You are supposed to be a professional writer and never produced any turn of a phrase equal to that nor seem to be able to comprehend the intent of the thread.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 11:49 am 
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You have to pay him for that.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 11:56 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I'm not even saying I agree. The Gashouse Gang were drunks in dirty jerseys. The A's had ridiculous facial hair and circus uniforms. But the culture either matters or it doesn't. I tend to think the Sox suck because they don't hit well or pitch well. Not because of a lack or rules or who the manager is.


Bingo. Those were legitimately Great (with a capital G) teams. The Sox have bad players.

As far as leadership matters--and it does to an extent--the Sox don't have that, either. Timmy is more Reggie Jackson than Thurmon Munson. @deacon ==> that was one hell of a book. It's been ringing in my ears like a great album all damn summer!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 11:57 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
old white guy who has always liked Timmy and still does.

The problem is, he willingly took on the mantle of leadership. He didn't have to do it, he chose. That includes many responsibilities, including self denial and restraint. Then he had his problems and injuries that lingered a curious amount of time. His head isn't right for the role he chose. He is lost spiritually.

So now the team is leaderless. An ass kicker as a teammate would have demanded more from Moncada and Eloy. I thought that's what we had in Lynn, but apparently not. Abreu was given that last contract because he was supposed to be the old leader of the growing cuban group on the team. He just seemed like an enabler who, rather than teaching them professionalism, wanted to be well liked.

I thought Hendriks was supposed to be that guy as well. I know he's been gone all year but I thought he was one of those red asses who wouldn't accept people not preparing for success.

But, when we talk about whether a manager matters, this is where a manager matters.


So much for Legends of Grifol, huh? Pick a lane John Kerry


You are supposed to be a professional writer and never produced any turn of a phrase equal to that nor seem to be able to comprehend the intent of the thread.
Bob is a writer in real life? :lol: :lol: What does he do, caption the pages in coloring books?

I guess if he and July DiCaro can get a job printing words, literally anybody over age 8 can as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:08 pm 
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Thomas-Sox-WorldSeries wrote:
Timmy is more Reggie Jackson than Thurmon Munson.


This is one of those things that's hard to quantify. But I feel pretty confident that if Dansby Swanson had played every game at short for the Sox this season, they'd be pretty close to first place, if not leading the division.

It's like when the Yankees got A-Rod and all the stats guys like bernstein and Joe Sheehan who don't really understand the game thought they should put A-Rod at short and move Jeter. There's more to the game than stats. Having Derek Jeter in the middle of the field was a key to those teams winning. A-Rod never won shit besides some MVPs and a batting title. Jeter was a real MVP.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:11 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
This is one of those things that's hard to quantify. But I feel pretty confident that if Dansby Swanson had played every game at short for the Sox this season, they'd be pretty close to first place, if not leading the division.
.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:20 pm 
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ARod won 2 MVPs and a ring with the Yankees. He also played in 120+ games 7 of his first 8 seasons in New York.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:37 pm 
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Baseball is a unique game that guys sign a big contract production drops drastically and they're praised as quality human beings. It's the only sport the players can give less than maximum effort coast by and keep their heads above water. Sometimes getting bigger and longer contracts the next contract. Any other sport its near impossible not to give maximum effort and survive in the league. How many White Sox like loafers are around MLB that nobody talks about?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:42 pm 
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Bernstein is putting this all on TLR as we speak…

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:51 pm 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Bernstein is putting this all on TLR as we speak…

:lol: :lol: of course he is

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:54 pm 
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Interesting nugget from Bernstein on the Burger trade I hadn’t heard yet…

The Marlins’ GM spoke to Kenny to make that trade, not Hahn. So again - who does what in that front office? Bernstein on a big “who is running things” tirade and he’s not wrong.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:57 pm 
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Relievers sleeping in the dugout is not new.

Tons of guys on cubs teams did the same.

I remember Murph talking about it way back in 1989!

Some guys get the ok to do that like closers. Back when it was only day baseball or 95% of the games were 1:20 starts the closer would be allowed to nap until the 7th when he may have been needed to close the game out.

Also coaches will favor guys over other guys to do that.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:58 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Middleton is just shitting on the joy of the players. And he hates the WBC because he's a bigot. Old white man yelling at cloud. The Sox are fine.
Uh oh, white male baseball player also throwing shade at the Sox! How will the crazy old Jorr spin this one?!
Quote:
Ahead of the MLB trade deadline, the White Sox traded away a fan favorite in Jake Burger to the Miami Marlins for pitching prospect Jake Eder.

On Wednesday, Burger played his first game with the Marlins in a 12-inning walk-off against the Philadelphia Phillies.

He hit 2-for-4 with a walk, hit by a pitch and a run scored. After the game, Burger jumped and cheered with his newfound team and took a selfie with his new teammates.

"I just texted my wife after the game. It's the most fun I've had on a baseball field in a really long time. It's special," Burger told reporters after the game.

Burger got an early taste in June. The Marlins rallied two comeback wins against the White Sox to win that series on the road. They first scored five runs in the ninth inning to overtake the Sox' one-run lead and win the game. In the series finale, the Marlins authored a five-run comeback in the eighth and ninth innings to beat the White Sox.

This time around, Burger wasn't watching from the opposing dugout. He was part of it.

"That's what I saw in Chicago a month-and-a-half ago," Burger said when asked about those games. "Kept fighting back, kept fighting back. I actually had that thought on the field today. I'm like, hey, this is what this culture is like here. We're never out of it. Doesn't matter what the score is. We're just gonna keep battling."
https://sports.yahoo.com/jake-burger-sa ... 59025.html

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 1:03 pm 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Bernstein is putting this all on TLR as we speak…

That was one of the dumber things I have heard him say. He's driven by ideology, not analysis.

I mean, I know we all are, but ya gotta try to get away from that in a job like his.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 1:11 pm 
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This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Bernstein is putting this all on TLR as we speak…
He's part of it, sure. Only a simpleton would absolve him from all blame for the 2022 season.

In fact, the same collection of bums and misfits had a winning record under Miguel Cairo. Had the Sox played to the same win% under TLR in 2022, they win 86 games and get the second wild card.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 1:18 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Bernstein is putting this all on TLR as we speak…
He's part of it, sure. Only a simpleton would absolve him from all blame for the 2022 season.

In fact, the same collection of bums and misfits had a winning record under Miguel Cairo. Had the Sox played to the same win% under TLR in 2022, they win 86 games and get the second wild card.

Hard for me to blame him with all the injuries, though. There's the five wins right there.

They may have had a chance to win a playoff series with Cueto and Cease. But that team was frankly limited, even without the injuries.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 1:42 pm 
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Nas wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Whether there are rules in place or not, you cannot have things like guys sleeping thru things and missing meetings. Just shows there is no one on the Sox that has real leadership abilities or a real desire to be their best. These are professional athletes. The manager does not have to be a hard ass. But guys need to have a little focus and determine that they are going to put forth their best effort and lead other guys around them to do the same.


As much as I dislike Hahn and  Grifo, I'm not willing to accept the thoughts of a disgruntled former player as gospel. A former player who was only here for half a season. That said, I do think leadership is lacking. That vacuum was created by Hahn.



Taking a lot of L's today, huh Nas?



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 1:46 pm 
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Thomas-Sox-WorldSeries wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
This Ends in Antioch wrote:
Bernstein is putting this all on TLR as we speak…
He's part of it, sure. Only a simpleton would absolve him from all blame for the 2022 season.

In fact, the same collection of bums and misfits had a winning record under Miguel Cairo. Had the Sox played to the same win% under TLR in 2022, they win 86 games and get the second wild card.

Hard for me to blame him with all the injuries, though. There's the five wins right there.

They may have had a chance to win a playoff series with Cueto and Cease. But that team was frankly limited, even without the injuries.
Sox had more injuries in 2021 and won 93 games. Now it was not the same team, but still.

Remember, this was also the same organization that had Dallas Keuchel, who at the time had an ERA well over 5, call the team out for lackluster play and their seemingly careless attitude. Certainly the great Tony LaRussa should have recognized this and done the same right?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 1:49 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Nas wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Whether there are rules in place or not, you cannot have things like guys sleeping thru things and missing meetings. Just shows there is no one on the Sox that has real leadership abilities or a real desire to be their best. These are professional athletes. The manager does not have to be a hard ass. But guys need to have a little focus and determine that they are going to put forth their best effort and lead other guys around them to do the same.


As much as I dislike Hahn and  Grifo, I'm not willing to accept the thoughts of a disgruntled former player as gospel. A former player who was only here for half a season. That said, I do think leadership is lacking. That vacuum was created by Hahn.



Taking a lot of L's today, huh Nas?



Yes, Thieving Lynn is a great source. Pretty soon you are going to quote Dallas Keuchel.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 1:58 pm 
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So Nas you are just going to explain away anyone that says there is a problem in the clubhouse?

Come on. You are better than this.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 1:59 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Nas wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Whether there are rules in place or not, you cannot have things like guys sleeping thru things and missing meetings. Just shows there is no one on the Sox that has real leadership abilities or a real desire to be their best. These are professional athletes. The manager does not have to be a hard ass. But guys need to have a little focus and determine that they are going to put forth their best effort and lead other guys around them to do the same.


As much as I dislike Hahn and  Grifo, I'm not willing to accept the thoughts of a disgruntled former player as gospel. A former player who was only here for half a season. That said, I do think leadership is lacking. That vacuum was created by Hahn.



Taking a lot of L's today, huh Nas?



Yes, Thieving Lynn is a great source. Pretty soon you are going to quote Dallas Keuchel.


Go back to dunking on Captain Ron in Politics. You can get some easy wins there.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:06 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
So Nas you are just going to explain away anyone that says there is a problem in the clubhouse?

Come on. You are better than this.


Am I required to fall in line because a guy that was here for 4 months and Thieving Lynn claim the Sox don't have any rules? I wonder why Lynn signed a new contract if his working environment was so toxic.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:07 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Nas wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Nas wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Whether there are rules in place or not, you cannot have things like guys sleeping thru things and missing meetings. Just shows there is no one on the Sox that has real leadership abilities or a real desire to be their best. These are professional athletes. The manager does not have to be a hard ass. But guys need to have a little focus and determine that they are going to put forth their best effort and lead other guys around them to do the same.


As much as I dislike Hahn and  Grifo, I'm not willing to accept the thoughts of a disgruntled former player as gospel. A former player who was only here for half a season. That said, I do think leadership is lacking. That vacuum was created by Hahn.



Taking a lot of L's today, huh Nas?



Yes, Thieving Lynn is a great source. Pretty soon you are going to quote Dallas Keuchel.


Go back to dunking on Captain Ron in Politics. You can get some easy wins there.


Tampon Ron

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:07 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Pretty soon you are going to quote Dallas Keuchel.
This doesn't help your cause. As I stated earlier, the soon to be DFA'd Kuechel-- with his 7+ ERA and 2-5 record-- had the call the Sox out. The guy who literally was the worst pitcher on the team to that point had to call the rest of the guys out.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:10 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Am I required to fall in line because a guy that was here for 4 months and Thieving Lynn claim the Sox don't have any rules?


Frank Coztansa wrote:
Middleton isn't some young guy who doesn;t know better. He has nearly 200 appearances as a reliver across seven big league seasons. He played under Scioscia and Maddon with the Angels. He played with the 90 win Mariners in 2021. He's been around for a while. I'll trust his judgement in saying the White Sox clubhouse is dysfunctional.


Lance Lynn is 2-0 with a 0.95 WHIP in two starts in LA. Maybe a change of scenery is doing him well.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:11 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Nas wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Nas wrote:
RFDC wrote:
Whether there are rules in place or not, you cannot have things like guys sleeping thru things and missing meetings. Just shows there is no one on the Sox that has real leadership abilities or a real desire to be their best. These are professional athletes. The manager does not have to be a hard ass. But guys need to have a little focus and determine that they are going to put forth their best effort and lead other guys around them to do the same.


As much as I dislike Hahn and  Grifo, I'm not willing to accept the thoughts of a disgruntled former player as gospel. A former player who was only here for half a season. That said, I do think leadership is lacking. That vacuum was created by Hahn.



Taking a lot of L's today, huh Nas?



Yes, Thieving Lynn is a great source. Pretty soon you are going to quote Dallas Keuchel.


Go back to dunking on Captain Ron in Politics. You can get some easy wins there.


Tampon Ron


There you go


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