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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:23 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Jesus, when this place decides to hivemind about something, there are no expenses spared. :roll:

Feel free to make the contrarian case that this trade was good for the Sox.

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:24 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
They didn't get a team's top prospect for Chris Sale. That is bad.


Does that mean Benintendi > Moncada in terms of prospects? I'd have to disagree, as do MANY.


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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:31 pm 
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Keyser Soze wrote:
So instead of getting better players in the back of the deal like Groome or Travis they took the money. Cheap fuckers.

In theory, they could spend that $31 and get a FA.

In practice, they will just pocket the profits.


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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:32 pm 
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Chet Coppock's Fur Coat wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
So instead of getting better players in the back of the deal like Groome or Travis they took the money. Cheap fuckers.

In theory, they could spend that $31 and get a FA.

In practice, they will just pocket the profits.


poor Juice :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:34 pm 
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National consensus from what I've read is this was a win-now move and Dombrowski just doesn't give a fuck (as per his modus operandi) and nobody is hand-wringing like this place.

But do carry on.

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:35 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
They didn't get a team's top prospect for Chris Sale. That is bad.


Does that mean Benintendi > Moncada in terms of prospects? I'd have to disagree, as do MANY.


OK. I admit don't follow prospects. You apparently do. Throw some knowledge on us rather than volleying.

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:35 pm 
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Hahn told Dombrowski on Friday that they were 100% on trading Sale and were willing back off from earlier demands. They basically invited the league to come along and snatch him on the cheap.

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:36 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Gloopan Kuratz wrote:
GoldenJet wrote:
Gloopan Kuratz wrote:
GoldenJet wrote:
Wasn't he supposed to pull at least one All Star caliber position player and a slew of can't miss prospects?

They got the prospect of $31 million.


Whoa...so they can go sign some shit players to lowball contracts?

Nope. The Chairman puts it in his pocket.

No one goes to the park anyway. Might as well tank and pay less salaries.


Ok, seriously now: You guys realize the Sox couldn't negotiate to pay or not pay Moncada's bonus money, right? You realize that, like all deferred payments, they are not transferred when a trade occurs, right? Which is how the Red Sox are still paying Manny Ramirez and Adrian Gonzalez, the Mets Bobby Bonilla, etc. Are we clear on that?



Sure, doesn't mean teams don't take cash back in trades.

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:37 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
jimmypasta wrote:
The fairness of this deal rides on the 2 other prospects they got. It's looking like they would have been better off trading with the Cubs or any other team that would have mixed youngsters with at least one proven veteran. Instead the Sox got two maybe's and two afterthoughts.



HOYER. SAID. HE. DID. NOT. WANT. TO. TRADE. WITH. THE. SOX.


Trades between geographical rivals do not occur often. Did you know the Dodgers and Giants have only made three trades over the past sixty years?


I imagine the Cubs would have given up more than that.

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:39 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Jesus, when this place decides to hivemind about something, there are no expenses spared. :roll:

Feel free to make the contrarian case that this trade was good for the Sox.


They got Baseball America's #1 prospect when they last updated the list mid-season in 2016. They also got a fireballing pitcher ranked just behind AJ Puk and Brady Aiken by MLB.com, and ranked in the ballpark of the Dodgers' Frankie Montas by BA.

Moncada is under full team control (has yet to even start is arbitration clock), and has displayed power-generating bat speed from both sides of the plate, as well as pitch selectivity that will allow him to work deeper into counts and hit more fastballs.

Kopech dominated in the AFL against the league's best young talent, and reached triple digits in his outing in the Fall-Star Game, and has by a few reports developed a changeup to pair with his plus-plus fastball and plus breaking ball.

Both of these guys have the legitimate potential to be 4+ WAR players, and Moncada's ceiling is MVP-caliber.

Basabe is a plus defender in the OF, and both his arm strength and power rated as above-average. He, again, is a switch hitter that can work deep into counts, and his bat speed from both sides of the plate can manifest in above-average power- and average-hitting. Were it not for Moncada and Kopech, Basabe on his own would be battling Zack Collins for the organization's best prospect.

All they needed to give up was a top-5 starter with whom they haven't won anything, and didn't project to win anything until after his team-friendly contract was up. They sacrificed exactly ZERO playoff appearances to set themselves up for the next 5 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:41 pm 
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Dave Kaplan said this was a good trade. I am sure Rozner will write the same. Case closed. The greatest minds in Chicago sports media have spoken.

That said, it looks like a good first move for the Sox. If they sell off the rest- Abreu, Frazier, Eaton, and Q, the team will be stocked for a crazy run in 3-5 years. There is no other way for a team with a middling payroll and a weak farm system.

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:42 pm 
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The greater issue amongst the Sox fan base is that none of us exactly trust the powers that be to actually do a good job of a rebuild. They could have gotten more for Sale. Hahn showed his hand and basically said, "fleece me".

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:42 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
Dave Kaplan said this was a good trade. I am sure Rozner will write the same. Case closed. The greatest minds in Chicago sports media have spoken.


Kaplan is an idiot, and I'm sure Rozner is still too upset about Bud Selig getting into the HoF to actually realize Sale has been traded.

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:43 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Jesus, when this place decides to hivemind about something, there are no expenses spared. :roll:

Feel free to make the contrarian case that this trade was good for the Sox.


They got Baseball America's #1 prospect when they last updated the list mid-season in 2016. They also got a fireballing pitcher ranked just behind AJ Puk and Brady Aiken by MLB.com, and ranked in the ballpark of the Dodgers' Frankie Montas by BA.

Moncada is under full team control (has yet to even start is arbitration clock), and has displayed power-generating bat speed from both sides of the plate, as well as pitch selectivity that will allow him to work deeper into counts and hit more fastballs.

Kopech dominated in the AFL against the league's best young talent, and reached triple digits in his outing in the Fall-Star Game, and has by a few reports developed a changeup to pair with his plus-plus fastball and plus breaking ball.

Both of these guys have the legitimate potential to be 4+ WAR players, and Moncada's ceiling is MVP-caliber.

Basabe is a plus defender in the OF, and both his arm strength and power rated as above-average. He, again, is a switch hitter that can work deep into counts, and his bat speed from both sides of the plate can manifest in above-average power- and average-hitting. Were it not for Moncada and Kopech, Basabe on his own would be battling Zack Collins for the organization's best prospect.

All they needed to give up was a top-5 starter with whom they haven't won anything, and didn't project to win anything until after his team-friendly contract was up. They sacrificed exactly ZERO playoff appearances to set themselves up for the next 5 years.



Bat speed. Just what Sox fans love to hear.


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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:45 pm 
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Big Chicagoan wrote:
Bat speed. Just what Sox fans love to hear.


Would you prefer "exit velocity"? They're two sides of the same coin.

Bat speed is graded out by scouts and those who evaluate talent for a living. Why? Because "bat speed" translates to "exit velocity" which translates, or rather correlates, with power hitting and home runs. Yes, prospects with tremendous bat speed have busted out, that is not a legitimate reason to dismiss the tool itself. That's like saying all failed White Sox prospects were humans, so they should acquire robots from now on.


Last edited by Juice's Lecture Notes on Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:47 pm 
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sjboyd0137 wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Dave Kaplan said this was a good trade. I am sure Rozner will write the same. Case closed. The greatest minds in Chicago sports media have spoken.


Kaplan is an idiot, and I'm sure Rozner is still too upset about Bud Selig getting into the HoF to actually realize Sale has been traded.


Did you read his article today about that? He hates Bud, which fits the Rozner playbook. He apologizes for sports folk that he loves, and rips ones that he hates without any objectivity. Meaning, people you like can do bad, while people you hate can do a good. A good analyst will separate personal feelings and comment objectively.

Bud was a kind of a moron, but the game grew nicely since the last strike.

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:48 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
in 3-5 years. .


:(

I could be dead in 3-5 years

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:50 pm 
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denisdman wrote:
sjboyd0137 wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Dave Kaplan said this was a good trade. I am sure Rozner will write the same. Case closed. The greatest minds in Chicago sports media have spoken.


Kaplan is an idiot, and I'm sure Rozner is still too upset about Bud Selig getting into the HoF to actually realize Sale has been traded.


Did you read his article today about that? He hates Bud, which fits the Rozner playbook. He apologizes for sports folk that he loves, and rips ones that he hates without any objectivity. Meaning, people you like can do bad, while people you hate can do a good. A good analyst will separate personal feelings and comment objectively.

Bud was a kind of a moron, but the game grew nicely since the last strike.


Yeah, I even took a shot at Rozner in the comment section online.

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:51 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Big Chicagoan wrote:
Bat speed. Just what Sox fans love to hear.


Would you prefer "exit velocity"? They're two sides of the same coin.

Bat speed is graded out by scouts and those who evaluate talent for a living. Why? Because "bat speed" translates to "exit velocity" which translates, or rather correlates, with power hitting and home runs. Yes, prospects with tremendous bat speed have busted out, that is not a legitimate reason to dismiss the tool itself. That's like saying all failed White Sox prospects were humans, so they should acquire robots from now on.


:lol: Whatever, man. I'm glad the Sox have so much bat speed now. Top 5 starter for guys who swing hard.


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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:52 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Jesus, when this place decides to hivemind about something, there are no expenses spared. :roll:

Feel free to make the contrarian case that this trade was good for the Sox.


They got Baseball America's #1 prospect when they last updated the list mid-season in 2016. They also got a fireballing pitcher ranked just behind AJ Puk and Brady Aiken by MLB.com, and ranked in the ballpark of the Dodgers' Frankie Montas by BA.

Moncada is under full team control (has yet to even start is arbitration clock), and has displayed power-generating bat speed from both sides of the plate, as well as pitch selectivity that will allow him to work deeper into counts and hit more fastballs.

Kopech dominated in the AFL against the league's best young talent, and reached triple digits in his outing in the Fall-Star Game, and has by a few reports developed a changeup to pair with his plus-plus fastball and plus breaking ball.

Both of these guys have the legitimate potential to be 4+ WAR players, and Moncada's ceiling is MVP-caliber.

Basabe is a plus defender in the OF, and both his arm strength and power rated as above-average. He, again, is a switch hitter that can work deep into counts, and his bat speed from both sides of the plate can manifest in above-average power- and average-hitting. Were it not for Moncada and Kopech, Basabe on his own would be battling Zack Collins for the organization's best prospect.

All they needed to give up was a top-5 starter with whom they haven't won anything, and didn't project to win anything until after his team-friendly contract was up. They sacrificed exactly ZERO playoff appearances to set themselves up for the next 5 years.


:lol: :lol: They just traded for another Frankie Montas? Maybe they should have kept the original when they had him.

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:53 pm 
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sjboyd0137 wrote:
denisdman wrote:
sjboyd0137 wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Dave Kaplan said this was a good trade. I am sure Rozner will write the same. Case closed. The greatest minds in Chicago sports media have spoken.


Kaplan is an idiot, and I'm sure Rozner is still too upset about Bud Selig getting into the HoF to actually realize Sale has been traded.


Did you read his article today about that? He hates Bud, which fits the Rozner playbook. He apologizes for sports folk that he loves, and rips ones that he hates without any objectivity. Meaning, people you like can do bad, while people you hate can do a good. A good analyst will separate personal feelings and comment objectively.

Bud was a kind of a moron, but the game grew nicely since the last strike.


Yeah, I even took a shot at Rozner in the comment section online.


I'll read it when I get home, but I already know what it says. He might as well be writing about Dale Talon or Lovie Smith. It's all from the same hate gene.

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:55 pm 
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denisdman wrote:

I'll read it when I get home, but I already know what it says. He might as well be writing about Dale Talon or Lovie Smith. It's all from the same hate gene.


I mean, there are only 3 types of Rozner columns.

1. Ripping people he hates
2. Comparing the Blackhawks to his semi-pro hockey glory
3. "When I was a beer vendor at Wrigley back in the '80's"

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:58 pm 
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Nas wrote:
I imagine the Cubs would have given up more than that.

More quantity, but probably not a prospect better in 2017 than Moncada.

Think prospects (Almora, Happ, Jimenez) and bench players (LaStella, Scrzur, Candelario) who could realistically start on many non-playoff teams. Maybe 5 players total.


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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:00 pm 
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sjboyd0137 wrote:
The greater issue amongst the Sox fan base is that none of us exactly trust the powers that be to actually do a good job of a rebuild. They could have gotten more for Sale. Hahn showed his hand and basically said, "fleece me".


Well then shouldn't said fan base bitch about that rather than these acquisitions?

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:03 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
sjboyd0137 wrote:
The greater issue amongst the Sox fan base is that none of us exactly trust the powers that be to actually do a good job of a rebuild. They could have gotten more for Sale. Hahn showed his hand and basically said, "fleece me".


Well then shouldn't said fan base bitch about that rather than these acquisitions?


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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:03 pm 
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Benintendi is BA's #1 Red Sox prospect now, so I doubt Moncada is still the #1 prospect in the game. Without Red Sox hype machine behind him he will settle into his true place which is in the low-teens maybe early-twenties. Hahn got completely bamboozled.

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:04 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
sjboyd0137 wrote:
The greater issue amongst the Sox fan base is that none of us exactly trust the powers that be to actually do a good job of a rebuild. They could have gotten more for Sale. Hahn showed his hand and basically said, "fleece me".


Well then shouldn't said fan base bitch about that rather than these acquisitions?


The problem is that we don't trust the acquisitions due to the track record displayed by Williams and Hahn.

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:05 pm 
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sjboyd0137 wrote:
denisdman wrote:

I'll read it when I get home, but I already know what it says. He might as well be writing about Dale Talon or Lovie Smith. It's all from the same hate gene.


I mean, there are only 3 types of Rozner columns.

1. Ripping people he hates
2. Comparing the Blackhawks to his semi-pro hockey glory
3. "When I was a beer vendor at Wrigley back in the '80's"


His hit piece the other day on the college football playoffs wanted to make me scream. I especially "liked" his 12 team playoff idea with byes. He made the case that having a larger pool of teams means no one can complain about getting left out similar to the NCAA Basketball Tourney. I was like, huh? Everyone complains even though they have no cause to about bubble teams for college basketball.

Then in a one sentence offhand remark, he said letting more teams in does not diminish the regular season. Ok so letting a three loss team in does not diminish the regular season? Sure Barry. The whole reason college football is great in the regular season is because those games are high stakes. Look at how meaningless the NBA and NHL regular seasons are as average teams make the playoffs.

Now it's ok if you want to argue for more teams, but don't do it with fake arguments.

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:20 pm 
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America wrote:
Benintendi is BA's #1 Red Sox prospect now, so I doubt Moncada is still the #1 prospect in the game. Without Red Sox hype machine behind him he will settle into his true place which is in the low-teens maybe early-twenties. Hahn got completely bamboozled.


Agreed

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 Post subject: Re: Trading Sale
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:23 pm 
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