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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:20 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
He was trying to foster a winning culture in the organization. Just last week you agreed with me that tanking is not good for the game of baseball and now it seems you are sort of on board with the idea. I admired your previous stance but disappointed that you have now "flip flopped" #Sad.
The team was really bad though.

Tanking isn't good for the game. As I said though, I can't blame anyone who does it now that MLB has made it all but mandatory even for a team like the Yankees.

There are really two options:
1) Theo was trying to win those 3 years and he did a horrible job.
2) Theo was trying to lose to build for the future.

I'll go with 2. You can stick with 1.


1.A
A strategic rebuild, only acquiring assets that were young and controllable.

The problem Theo found when he took over was that every other team in baseball was wise to the idea of buying out arb years and locking up young talent. The FA classes were horrific. Otherwise the team would have been much better/faster.
That's what Hahn is doing. Sale and Quintana are 28. They would be 30 by the time the Sox would be a legitimate World Series contender if the rebuild went perfectly without trading them and by then they wouldn't be controlled for long.

What you are describing is not a strategic rebuild. It would have very little to no chance to work.

But, get back to the major point, which is that you are claiming that Theo wanted to win those 3 years. He was pretty bad at winning.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:22 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
1.A
A strategic rebuild, only acquiring assets that were young and controllable.
Oh, ok. So its a good thing when Theo did this at the expense of the Major League roster, but its bad when Rick Hahn does the exact same fucking thing.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:25 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
That's what Hahn is doing. Sale and Quintana are 28. They would be 30 by the time the Sox would be a legitimate World Series contender if the rebuild went perfectly without trading them and by then they wouldn't be controlled for long.

What you are describing is not a strategic rebuild. It would have very little to no chance to work.

But, get back to the major point, which is that you are claiming that Theo wanted to win those 3 years. He was pretty bad at winning.


In 2015, Theo signed a 30 year old Jon Lester, and subsequently won the World Series with him the following year. I find it hard to believe that in 2013, Theo would see a 28 year old Chris Sale in his control and throw in the white flag on ever winning a WS with him.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:30 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
In 2015, Theo signed a 30 year old Jon Lester, and subsequently won the World Series with him the following year. I find it hard to believe that in 2013, Theo would see a 28 year old Chris Sale in his control and throw in the white flag on ever winning a WS with him.
After trading away Jeff S. and not signing him to a long term deal.

We'll never know how Theo would have built up the White Sox. That doesn't change the fact that he didn't try and win for 3 years, or was really, really bad at winning.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:34 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
In 2015, Theo signed a 30 year old Jon Lester, and subsequently won the World Series with him the following year. I find it hard to believe that in 2013, Theo would see a 28 year old Chris Sale in his control and throw in the white flag on ever winning a WS with him.
After trading away Jeff S. and not signing him to a long term deal.

We'll never know how Theo would have built up the White Sox. That doesn't change the fact that he didn't try and win for 3 years, or was really, really bad at winning.


He traded Shark away with only 1.5 years control...after many, many, many attempts to secure an extension. Little different than jettisoning a guy with 3 more full seasons of control, entering his prime.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:36 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Little different than jettisoning a guy with 3 more full seasons of control, entering his prime.
Chris Sale was not "jettisoned." Miguel Montero was Jettisoned. Eaton, Sale, Quintana, Melky...ALL of those guys have been used to acquire young and controlable assets. Which you praised Theo for doing.

You have changed your argument into Theo acquired assets and signed free ajents, and now have simply made something up.

You lost this one. A long time ago. Best to just move along now.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:42 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
In 2015, Theo signed a 30 year old Jon Lester, and subsequently won the World Series with him the following year. I find it hard to believe that in 2013, Theo would see a 28 year old Chris Sale in his control and throw in the white flag on ever winning a WS with him.
After trading away Jeff S. and not signing him to a long term deal.

We'll never know how Theo would have built up the White Sox. That doesn't change the fact that he didn't try and win for 3 years, or was really, really bad at winning.


He traded Shark away with only 1.5 years control...after many, many, many attempts to secure an extension. Little different than jettisoning a guy with 3 more full seasons of control, entering his prime.
It's the equivalent of 2.5 though as Shark was a midseason trade.

That's not a huge difference.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Chris Sale was not "jettisoned."

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Caller Bob has been embarrassed in MANY threads but this might be his worst one yet.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:25 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Caller Bob has been embarrassed in MANY threads but this might be his worst one yet.


I've got Frank back... engaged talking about the White Sox(not the Cubs) and this is the support I get? For returning your prodigal son home? #Sad


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:29 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Caller Bob has been embarrassed in MANY threads but this might be his worst one yet.


I've got Frank back... engaged talking about the White Sox(not the Cubs) and this is the support I get? For returning your prodigal son home? #Sad

You mention the Sox and Sox fans more often than Frank mentions the Cubs.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:30 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Little different than jettisoning a guy with 3 more full seasons of control, entering his prime.
Chris Sale was not "jettisoned." Miguel Montero was Jettisoned. Eaton, Sale, Quintana, Melky...ALL of those guys have been used to acquire young and controlable assets. Which you praised Theo for doing.

You have changed your argument into Theo acquired assets and signed free ajents, and now have simply made something up.

You lost this one. A long time ago. Best to just move along now.


(Un)Fortunately he won't.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:32 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Caller Bob has been embarrassed in MANY threads but this might be his worst one yet.


I've got Frank back... engaged talking about the White Sox(not the Cubs) and this is the support I get? For returning your prodigal son home? #Sad

You mention the Sox and Sox fans more often than Frank mentions the Cubs.


I've run the numbers and it isn't true
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=107694

And I've which you would show appreciation for helping out a fellow subdivision member. No respect.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:33 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Little different than jettisoning a guy with 3 more full seasons of control, entering his prime.
Chris Sale was not "jettisoned." Miguel Montero was Jettisoned. Eaton, Sale, Quintana, Melky...ALL of those guys have been used to acquire young and controlable assets. Which you praised Theo for doing.

You have changed your argument into Theo acquired assets and signed free ajents, and now have simply made something up.

You lost this one. A long time ago. Best to just move along now.


(Un)Fortunately he won't.

Sucks when a guy wont give up a losing argument right?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:41 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Caller Bob has been embarrassed in MANY threads but this might be his worst one yet.


I've got Frank back... engaged talking about the White Sox(not the Cubs) and this is the support I get? For returning your prodigal son home? #Sad

You mention the Sox and Sox fans more often than Frank mentions the Cubs.


I've run the numbers and it isn't true
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=107694

And I've which you would show appreciation for helping out a fellow subdivision member. No respect.

You don't want me to run the numbers comparing you and Frank. Trust me.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:47 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
A further reminder that while Hanh is trying to mimic what Theo did, already it's "Faux Cub Rebuild". Hahn is breeding a losing culture. Theo's teams were never this bad, even during the rebuild. They fought hard every day. Everyone was held accountable.

Weren't they the second worst team in baseball for a season?

It's hilarious you are the only person I've ever heard who thought Theo was trying to win.


That was 2012, Theo's first year. And the loss total was a result of the already Gutted/Aging roster Hendry left him. He didn't gut anything, the cupboard was already bare. He already started adding big league talent that year in Rizzo and he made a big time run at Darvish too.


The White Sox are now at the point (assuming some minor deals today for some of their remaining veteran starters who don't matter for the future and won't get anything in return) where some of these young players can begin to work their way to the majors.

Between the remainder of this year, and next season, we'll begin to see many of these highly touted prospects in the majors, and more will probably be here by 2019. If 4 or 5 of these young players reach the majors next season, followed by another 2-3 in 2019, they could be on a path to playoff contention by 2020, and possibly 2019 if the development of these players continue.

Trades and free agency will also play into this equation. In either 2019 or 2020, the White Sox will probably dip back into free agency to complement the roster and/or fill holes.

There is no guarantee that any of this will work, and this could result in another rebuild in 2020 if things don't, but they are actually on a pretty fast path (roughly 3 seasons) to having a team of highly ranked minor league talent (both pitching and hitting) mixed with free agency.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:08 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Little different than jettisoning a guy with 3 more full seasons of control, entering his prime.
Chris Sale was not "jettisoned." Miguel Montero was Jettisoned. Eaton, Sale, Quintana, Melky...ALL of those guys have been used to acquire young and controlable assets. Which you praised Theo for doing.

You have changed your argument into Theo acquired assets and signed free ajents, and now have simply made something up.

You lost this one. A long time ago. Best to just move along now.


(Un)Fortunately he won't.

Sucks when a guy wont give up a losing argument right?


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Ain't that the truth.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:08 pm 
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The Cubs let Chris Volstad pitch major league innings. Even Rick Hahn isn't desperate enough to lose so much to do that, and Volstad has been at Charlotte this year.

I thought it was amusing when some Sox fans were worried that the "rebuild" was just code for "trading the assholes." Major credit to Rick Hahn for playing this one out really well. And guys like Shields and Holland are easy waiver moves, don't be surprised if you see Holland moved on August 31 for another lottery ticket.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:48 pm 
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I wouldn't say easy. Holland sucks, and Sheilds is owed a good amount of money. I would not be shocked to see either guy move, but I would not be shocked if one or bother are still chucking for the Sox in September.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Volstad is perfect for their plan. Guy throws BP with the best of them.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
I wouldn't say easy. Holland sucks, and Sheilds is owed a good amount of money. I would not be shocked to see either guy move, but I would not be shocked if one or bother are still chucking for the Sox in September.

Agreed. Theyll either be traded or they wont.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:05 pm 
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:lol: Thanks, Spark.

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First off, the [2016 Cubs World Series] title was never a huge deal to me.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:09 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
I wouldn't say easy. Holland sucks, and Sheilds is owed a good amount of money. I would not be shocked to see either guy move, but I would not be shocked if one or bother are still chucking for the Sox in September.

Agreed. Theyll either be traded or they wont.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Chet Coppock's Fur Coat wrote:
The Cubs let Chris Volstad pitch major league innings. Even Rick Hahn isn't desperate enough to lose so much to do that, and Volstad has been at Charlotte this year.

I thought it was amusing when some Sox fans were worried that the "rebuild" was just code for "trading the assholes." Major credit to Rick Hahn for playing this one out really well. And guys like Shields and Holland are easy waiver moves, don't be surprised if you see Holland moved on August 31 for another lottery ticket.




LMAO... Nobody is claiming Shields.. Doubtful somebody claims Holland.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:37 pm 
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The only thing the Sox can do is pitch Shields as much as possible and hope his arm falls off. The sooner the better.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:01 am 
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I'm still surprised Gonzalez hasn't been traded.

If he is here in September, I'd look to extend him for another year on a cheap deal. That still leaves two rotation spots open for rookies. I wouldn't want to start more than two at the beginning of next year anyway,

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:51 pm 
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Still surprised?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:07 am 
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That was either lucky or brilliant that the Sox were forced to take Clippard by the Yankees in order to offset salary and they were able to shine him up to the point that not only do they lose his salary but they get a prospect for their trouble. Talk about getting something for nothing.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:22 pm 
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It looks like the Clippard trade was salary relief.

WTF Jerry? If you are rebuilding you get prospects, not money.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Clippard was too effective. They either want guys to develop like Bummer, who they hope is going through the same process Kahnle underwent a year ago, or absolute turds.

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