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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:00 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Sale is pretty much a lock for the HOF. Two more seasons like 2017 and he's in. Especially considering this new 'juiced ball" era.



That's ridiculous. What does he have? 85 wins? If you put Sale in now you better put Don Gullett and Ron Guidry in first.


Nobody is going to give a shit about pitcher wins when the likes of Kershaw, Sale and Scherzer are up for their HOF votes. Forget the debate of how useless the "win" stat is, you have nuances like specialized bullpens, five men rotations, starts skipped, etc. There just are not as many opportunities for pitchers to get the "W" stat.



:lol: They all have giant winning percentages but I'm gonna say no starter with less than 150 wins is getting in the Hall of Fame. There are way too many good ones out there with more who aren't in.

But like I said, the standards will have to be relaxed. They're not going to be relaxed from 300 wins down to 110 though.


Clayton Kershaw has a higher WAR total than Sandy Koufax in 400 fewer innings, he would be 35th among HoF pitchers in bWAR total for a career, he would be #1 in career adjusted ERA+.

Sale is just behind Catfish Hunter in terms of WAR despite having thrown fewer than half of Hunter's inning total, would be 54th among all starters in the Hall, and he would be 6th in career adjusted ERA+ (technically 7th, because Kershaw is getting in, too).


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:03 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Sale is pretty much a lock for the HOF. Two more seasons like 2017 and he's in. Especially considering this new 'juiced ball" era.



That's ridiculous. What does he have? 85 wins? If you put Sale in now you better put Don Gullett and Ron Guidry in first.


Nobody is going to give a shit about pitcher wins when the likes of Kershaw, Sale and Scherzer are up for their HOF votes. Forget the debate of how useless the "win" stat is, you have nuances like specialized bullpens, five men rotations, starts skipped, etc. There just are not as many opportunities for pitchers to get the "W" stat.



:lol: They all have giant winning percentages but I'm gonna say no starter with less than 150 wins is getting in the Hall of Fame. There are way too many good ones out there with more who aren't in.

But like I said, the standards will have to be relaxed. They're not going to be relaxed from 300 wins down to 110 though.


Clayton Kershaw has a higher WAR total than Sandy Koufax in 400 fewer innings, he would be 35th among HoF pitchers in bWAR total for a career, he would be #1 in career adjusted ERA+.

Sale is just behind Catfish Hunter in terms of WAR despite having thrown fewer than half of Hunter's inning total, would be 54th among all starters in the Hall, and he would be 6th in career adjusted ERA+ (technically 7th, because Kershaw is getting in, too).


Yes. Surely this time JORR will be convinced by these stats.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:17 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Sale is pretty much a lock for the HOF. Two more seasons like 2017 and he's in. Especially considering this new 'juiced ball" era.



That's ridiculous. What does he have? 85 wins? If you put Sale in now you better put Don Gullett and Ron Guidry in first.


Nobody is going to give a shit about pitcher wins when the likes of Kershaw, Sale and Scherzer are up for their HOF votes. Forget the debate of how useless the "win" stat is, you have nuances like specialized bullpens, five men rotations, starts skipped, etc. There just are not as many opportunities for pitchers to get the "W" stat.



:lol: They all have giant winning percentages but I'm gonna say no starter with less than 150 wins is getting in the Hall of Fame. There are way too many good ones out there with more who aren't in.

But like I said, the standards will have to be relaxed. They're not going to be relaxed from 300 wins down to 110 though.


Clayton Kershaw has a higher WAR total than Sandy Koufax in 400 fewer innings, he would be 35th among HoF pitchers in bWAR total for a career, he would be #1 in career adjusted ERA+.

Sale is just behind Catfish Hunter in terms of WAR despite having thrown fewer than half of Hunter's inning total, would be 54th among all starters in the Hall, and he would be 6th in career adjusted ERA+ (technically 7th, because Kershaw is getting in, too).


Catfish Hunter is a questionable HoF guy. I wouldn't use him as a poster boy. I'm sure you don't consider him better than Joe Horlen.

Do you think that there should simply be a guideline WAR cutoff for HoF induction? We could do away with voters and controversy.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:22 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
juschill wrote:

I agree.

Certainly winning a couple Cy Young awards should be a minimum.

You should be among the best at your position without much debate for 10-15 years. Otherwise you can end up in the Good Player but not Hall of Fame category.

Two many people in the Hall of Fame. Ivan Rodriguez? Ugh. Tim Raines? For what?


There are a lot of guys I'd complain about before those two.


Of course. They're just the most recent. Don Sutton can go. So can Andre Dawson, Ryne Sandberg.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:36 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Sale is pretty much a lock for the HOF. Two more seasons like 2017 and he's in. Especially considering this new 'juiced ball" era.



That's ridiculous. What does he have? 85 wins? If you put Sale in now you better put Don Gullett and Ron Guidry in first.


Nobody is going to give a shit about pitcher wins when the likes of Kershaw, Sale and Scherzer are up for their HOF votes. Forget the debate of how useless the "win" stat is, you have nuances like specialized bullpens, five men rotations, starts skipped, etc. There just are not as many opportunities for pitchers to get the "W" stat.



:lol: They all have giant winning percentages but I'm gonna say no starter with less than 150 wins is getting in the Hall of Fame. There are way too many good ones out there with more who aren't in.

But like I said, the standards will have to be relaxed. They're not going to be relaxed from 300 wins down to 110 though.


Clayton Kershaw has a higher WAR total than Sandy Koufax in 400 fewer innings, he would be 35th among HoF pitchers in bWAR total for a career, he would be #1 in career adjusted ERA+.

Sale is just behind Catfish Hunter in terms of WAR despite having thrown fewer than half of Hunter's inning total, would be 54th among all starters in the Hall, and he would be 6th in career adjusted ERA+ (technically 7th, because Kershaw is getting in, too).


Catfish Hunter is a questionable HoF guy. I wouldn't use him as a poster boy. I'm sure you don't consider him better than Joe Horlen.

Do you think that there should simply be a guideline WAR cutoff for HoF induction? We could do away with voters and controversy.


No, because as a counting stat, it is subject to the same, or similar, misuses and abuses as other stat totals. It should be considered in concert with other metrics as part of a larger statistical case being made for Hall induction.

That said, I think there are certain benchmarks that are inherently eyebrow-raising for a game that has been around for more than 100 years, and being Top-50, or Top-30, etc. all-time at your position, in a fairly league-adjusted value statistic is one of them.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:09 pm 
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A single.

HE IS HEATING UP!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:31 am 
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Opening the Sale HOF debate back up. Been an all star every year he was a starter, top 6 in cy young voting since he was a starter. Last 2 years was top 20 in MVP voting. If he can lock up a cy young this year, he is in the hall of fame if he were to die in a car accident.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:34 am 
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TurdFerguson wrote:
Opening the Sale HOF debate back up. Been an all star every year he was a starter, top 6 in cy young voting since he was a starter. Last 2 years was top 20 in MVP voting. If he can lock up a cy young this year, he is in the hall of fame if he were to die in a car accident.

I don't agree with your last sentence at all but I agree that he is easily on track to be a HOFer. This could easily be one of the worst trades in baseball history if Moncada and Kopech don't pan out.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:36 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
TurdFerguson wrote:
Opening the Sale HOF debate back up. Been an all star every year he was a starter, top 6 in cy young voting since he was a starter. Last 2 years was top 20 in MVP voting. If he can lock up a cy young this year, he is in the hall of fame if he were to die in a car accident.

I don't agree with your last sentence at all but I agree that he is easily on track to be a HOFer. This could easily be one of the worst trades in baseball history if Moncada and Kopech don't pan out.

If not this year, you would have to admit he isn't far off. Seeing him garner MVP votes the last 2 years was a bit shocking to me.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:37 am 
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TurdFerguson wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
TurdFerguson wrote:
Opening the Sale HOF debate back up. Been an all star every year he was a starter, top 6 in cy young voting since he was a starter. Last 2 years was top 20 in MVP voting. If he can lock up a cy young this year, he is in the hall of fame if he were to die in a car accident.

I don't agree with your last sentence at all but I agree that he is easily on track to be a HOFer. This could easily be one of the worst trades in baseball history if Moncada and Kopech don't pan out.

If not this year, you would have to admit he isn't far off. Seeing him garner MVP votes the last 2 years was a bit shocking to me.

I think he needs at least five more good to great years to get in. Baseball HOF still has standards unlike the NBA and NFL. I don't want to see them ruin that by considering anyone who's had a good five year stretch.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:38 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
TurdFerguson wrote:
Opening the Sale HOF debate back up. Been an all star every year he was a starter, top 6 in cy young voting since he was a starter. Last 2 years was top 20 in MVP voting. If he can lock up a cy young this year, he is in the hall of fame if he were to die in a car accident.

I don't agree with your last sentence at all but I agree that he is easily on track to be a HOFer. This could easily be one of the worst trades in baseball history if Moncada and Kopech don't pan out.
It can only be the 3rd worst baseball trade in Chicago.

It almost certainly will not be worse than Brock for Broglio or Bell for Sosa.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:50 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
TurdFerguson wrote:
Opening the Sale HOF debate back up. Been an all star every year he was a starter, top 6 in cy young voting since he was a starter. Last 2 years was top 20 in MVP voting. If he can lock up a cy young this year, he is in the hall of fame if he were to die in a car accident.

I don't agree with your last sentence at all but I agree that he is easily on track to be a HOFer. This could easily be one of the worst trades in baseball history if Moncada and Kopech don't pan out.
It can only be the 3rd worst baseball trade in Chicago.

It almost certainly will not be worse than Brock for Broglio or Bell for Sosa.

If everyone the Sox got backs turns out to be a bust, it's as bad or worse than either of those.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:54 am 
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FavreFan wrote:
TurdFerguson wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
TurdFerguson wrote:
Opening the Sale HOF debate back up. Been an all star every year he was a starter, top 6 in cy young voting since he was a starter. Last 2 years was top 20 in MVP voting. If he can lock up a cy young this year, he is in the hall of fame if he were to die in a car accident.

I don't agree with your last sentence at all but I agree that he is easily on track to be a HOFer. This could easily be one of the worst trades in baseball history if Moncada and Kopech don't pan out.

If not this year, you would have to admit he isn't far off. Seeing him garner MVP votes the last 2 years was a bit shocking to me.

I think he needs at least five more good to great years to get in. Baseball HOF still has standards unlike the NBA and NFL. I don't want to see them ruin that by considering anyone who's had a good five year stretch.

5 more years seems a bit much considering what he has already done. I'm only seeing 1 active starter with 6 consecutive all star games (kershaw).

Also with my qualification of death, I assume there is some projection in there. If his arm falls off tomorrow and he becomes bad, that would tarnish what he has already done.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:23 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
TurdFerguson wrote:
Opening the Sale HOF debate back up. Been an all star every year he was a starter, top 6 in cy young voting since he was a starter. Last 2 years was top 20 in MVP voting. If he can lock up a cy young this year, he is in the hall of fame if he were to die in a car accident.

I don't agree with your last sentence at all but I agree that he is easily on track to be a HOFer. This could easily be one of the worst trades in baseball history if Moncada and Kopech don't pan out.

He gets in like Drazen Petrovic if that happens.


probably a tractor accident or meth explosion though


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:26 pm 
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This is only a debate for now. Three years from now when he's coming off 3 straight Cys it'll be a no brainer

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