It is currently Sat Apr 27, 2024 3:30 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 8:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:35 pm
Posts: 80165
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
When three of your long term heart of the order guys are bad to mediocre, there's not much you can do about that short of getting a new heart of the order.


I just don't think you can junk those guys after you tanked to get them. And I know Moncada is frustrating, but circumstances have to fall right. He'll quite likely end up with a better career than Javy Baez who is a Cub legend. You just need guys to play well at the right time and avoid injury. It's easier said than done.

I don't think it's absurd to believe that you can get 12 WAR from Moncada-Robert-Jimenez in the next year or two. If you get that you're probably going to have a decent team. If you put the right players around them, you could have a really good team. A lot of ifs, I know. But it's a funny game and there are no sure things. I remember when Kris Bryant was a guaranteed first ballot Hall of Famer. Now it looks like he's Kevin Youkilis.


My guess is they hold on to all of them and cross their fingers. I would like to see them trade Vaughn and Jimenez for somebody else's underperforming players and see if that shakes anything up. I think if they got a combined WAR of six out of Jimenez, Moncada, and Vaughn next year, they would be lucky.


I think that's what you have to do. It's not like these guys are complete busts. They've shown they can hit in the big leagues. They just need to put it together at the same time.

And I don't think any of these bums should be untouchable. Not even Robert. If the right deal is there, move them.

It isn't easy to win a World Series. You have to try to win one every year. When you fantasize about tanking followed by dynasty, that's usually what it is- a fantasy. Look at the Cub juggernaut.

That's why it's a mistake to look at your "bright future." There is no future in baseball. It's a funny game. Next year you'll probably lose to the Twins. You have to do EVERYTHING possible to win when you have a chance. You don't sit Strasburg while fantasizing about all his future Cy Youngs and your future World Series wins. You don't hang on to Jackson Holliday when Dylan Cease or Justin Verlander could have won you the World Series this year.


The Indians were darlings of baseball last year, winning baseball games the right way. They were terrible this year

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 9:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:19 pm
Posts: 28609
pizza_Place: What??
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
When three of your long term heart of the order guys are bad to mediocre, there's not much you can do about that short of getting a new heart of the order.


I just don't think you can junk those guys after you tanked to get them. And I know Moncada is frustrating, but circumstances have to fall right. He'll quite likely end up with a better career than Javy Baez who is a Cub legend. You just need guys to play well at the right time and avoid injury. It's easier said than done.

I don't think it's absurd to believe that you can get 12 WAR from Moncada-Robert-Jimenez in the next year or two. If you get that you're probably going to have a decent team. If you put the right players around them, you could have a really good team. A lot of ifs, I know. But it's a funny game and there are no sure things. I remember when Kris Bryant was a guaranteed first ballot Hall of Famer. Now it looks like he's Kevin Youkilis.


My guess is they hold on to all of them and cross their fingers. I would like to see them trade Vaughn and Jimenez for somebody else's underperforming players and see if that shakes anything up. I think if they got a combined WAR of six out of Jimenez, Moncada, and Vaughn next year, they would be lucky.


I think that's what you have to do. It's not like these guys are complete busts. They've shown they can hit in the big leagues. They just need to put it together at the same time.

And I don't think any of these bums should be untouchable. Not even Robert. If the right deal is there, move them.

It isn't easy to win a World Series. You have to try to win one every year. When you fantasize about tanking followed by dynasty, that's usually what it is- a fantasy. Look at the Cub juggernaut.

That's why it's a mistake to look at your "bright future." There is no future in baseball. It's a funny game. Next year you'll probably lose to the Twins. You have to do EVERYTHING possible to win when you have a chance. You don't sit Strasburg while fantasizing about all his future Cy Youngs and your future World Series wins. You don't hang on to Jackson Holliday when Dylan Cease or Justin Verlander could have won you the World Series this year.

Yikes


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 10:11 am 
Offline
100000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:17 pm
Posts: 101888
pizza_Place: Vito & Nick's
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I think that's what you have to do. It's not like these guys are complete busts. They've shown they can hit in the big leagues. They just need to put it together at the same time.
At some point, they are what they are. Yes they are big league players that can hit for stretches. Of the main prospects the Sox acquired in the Sale, Eaton, and Quintana trades, Only Robert has put it all together for a full year and that only happened one time. With the arms, you had one great year out of Cease and Giolito with some other good runs here and there, but mostly they were #3 and #4 guys on a Championship caliber starting rotation.

They aren't busts, but clearly none of them panned out to be good enough to win a playoff series, much less a Championship or be a dynasty.

_________________
ltg wrote:
[Fields will] be the starting QB on an NFL roster at the start of next season. Book It!
Caller Bob wrote:
There will never be an effective vaccine. I'll never get one anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 10:12 am 
Online
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 77045
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
Nardi wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
You don't hang on to Jackson Holliday when Dylan Cease or Justin Verlander could have won you the World Series this year.

Yikes


It probably wouldn't have even taken Jackson Holliday. Baltimore could have given themselves a much better chance of winning the World Series THIS YEAR if they had been willing to move some of their vaunted prospects. Instead they're fantasizing about a "dynasty" as if the Yankees and Red Sox are just going to let them do that. Not to mention there are only nine spots in the batting order. Even if every prospect turns out great, you can't really use them all.

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 10:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:19 pm
Posts: 28609
pizza_Place: What??
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
You don't hang on to Jackson Holliday when Dylan Cease or Justin Verlander could have won you the World Series this year.

Yikes


It probably wouldn't have even taken Jackson Holliday.


I get where you are coming from. You just got a bit over your skis on Holliday. I'd pack Cease's shit myself.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:05 am 
Online
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 77045
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
Nardi wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nardi wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
You don't hang on to Jackson Holliday when Dylan Cease or Justin Verlander could have won you the World Series this year.

Yikes


It probably wouldn't have even taken Jackson Holliday.


I get where you are coming from. You just got a bit over your skis on Holliday. I'd pack Cease's shit myself.



I think Cease would have been a good move for Baltimore. They have a good young core and he has ace potential as they hit their peak. Plus he was probably better than all their pitchers other than Bradish. Certainly A LOT better than their deadline pickup of Flaherty. But they could have also gone for the tried and true with Verlander. Either way, they blew what might have been their best chance in order to hoard prospects.

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:51 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:46 pm
Posts: 9950
pizza_Place: Q's Hillside
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
When three of your long term heart of the order guys are bad to mediocre, there's not much you can do about that short of getting a new heart of the order.


I just don't think you can junk those guys after you tanked to get them. And I know Moncada is frustrating, but circumstances have to fall right. He'll quite likely end up with a better career than Javy Baez who is a Cub legend. You just need guys to play well at the right time and avoid injury. It's easier said than done.

I don't think it's absurd to believe that you can get 12 WAR from Moncada-Robert-Jimenez in the next year or two. If you get that you're probably going to have a decent team. If you put the right players around them, you could have a really good team. A lot of ifs, I know. But it's a funny game and there are no sure things. I remember when Kris Bryant was a guaranteed first ballot Hall of Famer. Now it looks like he's Kevin Youkilis.


My guess is they hold on to all of them and cross their fingers. I would like to see them trade Vaughn and Jimenez for somebody else's underperforming players and see if that shakes anything up. I think if they got a combined WAR of six out of Jimenez, Moncada, and Vaughn next year, they would be lucky.


I think that's what you have to do. It's not like these guys are complete busts. They've shown they can hit in the big leagues. They just need to put it together at the same time.

And I don't think any of these bums should be untouchable. Not even Robert. If the right deal is there, move them.

It isn't easy to win a World Series. You have to try to win one every year. When you fantasize about tanking followed by dynasty, that's usually what it is- a fantasy. Look at the Cub juggernaut.

That's why it's a mistake to look at your "bright future." There is no future in baseball. It's a funny game. Next year you'll probably lose to the Twins. You have to do EVERYTHING possible to win when you have a chance. You don't sit Strasburg while fantasizing about all his future Cy Youngs and your future World Series wins. You don't hang on to Jackson Holliday when Dylan Cease or Justin Verlander could have won you the World Series this year.

They don't have to trade Holliday, they have 3-4 young pieces at AA/AAA who could have been packaged to easily get Cease. But Baltimore's owner doesn't really care about winning the World Series, he is going to trade guys when they hit four years of service time and "reload" and he's happy just being profitable with a low payroll and occasionally making the playoffs.

_________________
"When people want their version of the truth, they go find it, no matter how baseless their beliefs." -- Ken Rosenthal


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 5:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:26 am
Posts: 14354
pizza_Place: Grazianos
I think that the O's were a year away and were smart not to trade their young talent. Theygot a taste of what contending is all about and should be the favorite to win it all next season. A top of the line starting pitcher and a good veteran infielder in the middle of the order along with a good veteran 2nd catcher and they will be a solid team for the next 5-6 years at least.

_________________
An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:21 am 
Online
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 77045
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
The Hawk wrote:
I think that the O's were a year away and were smart not to trade their young talent. Theygot a taste of what contending is all about and should be the favorite to win it all next season. A top of the line starting pitcher and a good veteran infielder in the middle of the order along with a good veteran 2nd catcher and they will be a solid team for the next 5-6 years at least.



I would bet a lot of money they don't win the AL East next year.

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 9:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:22 pm
Posts: 1987
The Hawk wrote:
I think that the O's were a year away and were smart not to trade their young talent. Theygot a taste of what contending is all about and should be the favorite to win it all next season. A top of the line starting pitcher and a good veteran infielder in the middle of the order along with a good veteran 2nd catcher and they will be a solid team for the next 5-6 years at least.


Sounds similar to the 2020/2021 White Sox. Hope it works out for the O's.....

Obviously, there are teams doing a much better job than others building a solid franchise, but baseball just has so much randomness/sorcery/fuckery when it comes to winning it all, that I've given up on the "solid team for 5-6 years" thoughts.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:08 am 
Online
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 77045
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
casual fan wrote:
The Hawk wrote:
I think that the O's were a year away and were smart not to trade their young talent. Theygot a taste of what contending is all about and should be the favorite to win it all next season. A top of the line starting pitcher and a good veteran infielder in the middle of the order along with a good veteran 2nd catcher and they will be a solid team for the next 5-6 years at least.


Sounds similar to the 2020/2021 White Sox. Hope it works out for the O's.....

Obviously, there are teams doing a much better job than others building a solid franchise, but baseball just has so much randomness/sorcery/fuckery when it comes to winning it all, that I've given up on the "solid team for 5-6 years" thoughts.



Yep. It's a funny game.

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:04 pm
Posts: 12734
Location: Lake of the Ozarks (whenever I can)
pizza_Place: Mauries Table
Nardi wrote:
I'd pack Cease's shit myself.
Is that a euphemism?

_________________
If we nominate Trump we will get destroyed & we'll deserve it.- L Graham
I’m going to enforce all laws concerning the protection of classified information. No one will be above the law.- DJT 2016
MAY THEY ROT IN HELL. AGAIN, MERRY CHRISTMAS!- DJT 12/25/23


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:04 pm
Posts: 12734
Location: Lake of the Ozarks (whenever I can)
pizza_Place: Mauries Table
Apologies to GD.

_________________
If we nominate Trump we will get destroyed & we'll deserve it.- L Graham
I’m going to enforce all laws concerning the protection of classified information. No one will be above the law.- DJT 2016
MAY THEY ROT IN HELL. AGAIN, MERRY CHRISTMAS!- DJT 12/25/23


Last edited by Zippy-The-Pinhead on Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:04 pm
Posts: 12734
Location: Lake of the Ozarks (whenever I can)
pizza_Place: Mauries Table
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I think that's what you have to do. It's not like these guys are complete busts. They've shown they can hit in the big leagues. They just need to put it together at the same time.
At some point, they are what they are. Yes they are big league players that can hit for stretches. Of the main prospects the Sox acquired in the Sale, Eaton, and Quintana trades, Only Robert has put it all together for a full year and that only happened one time. With the arms, you had one great year out of Cease and Giolito with some other good runs here and there, but mostly they were #3 and #4 guys on a Championship caliber starting rotation.

They aren't busts, but clearly none of them panned out to be good enough to win a playoff series, much less a Championship or be a dynasty.

I get your point but Moncada put it together in 2019. I had high hopes for him the next 2 seasons, but it’s the Sox so I should have known better.

_________________
If we nominate Trump we will get destroyed & we'll deserve it.- L Graham
I’m going to enforce all laws concerning the protection of classified information. No one will be above the law.- DJT 2016
MAY THEY ROT IN HELL. AGAIN, MERRY CHRISTMAS!- DJT 12/25/23


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:26 am
Posts: 14354
pizza_Place: Grazianos
good dolphin wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
When three of your long term heart of the order guys are bad to mediocre, there's not much you can do about that short of getting a new heart of the order.


I just don't think you can junk those guys after you tanked to get them. And I know Moncada is frustrating, but circumstances have to fall right. He'll quite likely end up with a better career than Javy Baez who is a Cub legend. You just need guys to play well at the right time and avoid injury. It's easier said than done.

I don't think it's absurd to believe that you can get 12 WAR from Moncada-Robert-Jimenez in the next year or two. If you get that you're probably going to have a decent team. If you put the right players around them, you could have a really good team. A lot of ifs, I know. But it's a funny game and there are no sure things. I remember when Kris Bryant was a guaranteed first ballot Hall of Famer. Now it looks like he's Kevin Youkilis.


My guess is they hold on to all of them and cross their fingers. I would like to see them trade Vaughn and Jimenez for somebody else's underperforming players and see if that shakes anything up. I think if they got a combined WAR of six out of Jimenez, Moncada, and Vaughn next year, they would be lucky.


I think that's what you have to do. It's not like these guys are complete busts. They've shown they can hit in the big leagues. They just need to put it together at the same time.

And I don't think any of these bums should be untouchable. Not even Robert. If the right deal is there, move them.

It isn't easy to win a World Series. You have to try to win one every year. When you fantasize about tanking followed by dynasty, that's usually what it is- a fantasy. Look at the Cub juggernaut.

That's why it's a mistake to look at your "bright future." There is no future in baseball. It's a funny game. Next year you'll probably lose to the Twins. You have to do EVERYTHING possible to win when you have a chance. You don't sit Strasburg while fantasizing about all his future Cy Youngs and your future World Series wins. You don't hang on to Jackson Holliday when Dylan Cease or Justin Verlander could have won you the World Series this year.


The Indians were darlings of baseball last year, winning baseball games the right way. They were terrible this year



I give the Indians credit though. They at least had some guys on that team that played balls out and had a good manager. They had less "talent" than the White Sox and Twins and talent does mean something. Unfortunately for the Sox, they were mismanaged and too many of their players were just filling out space in the dugout and waiting for a paycheck.

_________________
An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:27 pm 
Offline
100000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:17 pm
Posts: 101888
pizza_Place: Vito & Nick's
I meant 'put it together' while in the so called Championship window. Sure, Moncada had a good 2019, but thats four seasons ago. its easy to be 'the guy' on a 90 loss team.

Also the centerpiece of a trade that involves sending away one of the greatest Sox pitchers ever-- certainly the Sox best in the 4 & 5 man starting rotation era-- you have to get back a guy who is going to up better similarity scores than this;
Quote:
Similar Batters

Ryan McMahon (952.0)
Jeimer Candelario (944.7)
Kevin Kouzmanoff (941.8)
Felix Mantilla (938.4)
Trevor Plouffe (938.1)
Brandon Drury (935.8)
Jim Leyritz (934.6)
Butch Hobson (933.3)
Yangervis Solarte (933.2)
Jedd Gyorko (931.6)

_________________
ltg wrote:
[Fields will] be the starting QB on an NFL roster at the start of next season. Book It!
Caller Bob wrote:
There will never be an effective vaccine. I'll never get one anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:26 am
Posts: 14354
pizza_Place: Grazianos
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The Hawk wrote:
I think that the O's were a year away and were smart not to trade their young talent. Theygot a taste of what contending is all about and should be the favorite to win it all next season. A top of the line starting pitcher and a good veteran infielder in the middle of the order along with a good veteran 2nd catcher and they will be a solid team for the next 5-6 years at least.



I would bet a lot of money they don't win the AL East next year.


Who do you think will win it?

_________________
An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Food for thought
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:26 am
Posts: 14354
pizza_Place: Grazianos
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I think that's what you have to do. It's not like these guys are complete busts. They've shown they can hit in the big leagues. They just need to put it together at the same time.
At some point, they are what they are. Yes they are big league players that can hit for stretches. Of the main prospects the Sox acquired in the Sale, Eaton, and Quintana trades, Only Robert has put it all together for a full year and that only happened one time. With the arms, you had one great year out of Cease and Giolito with some other good runs here and there, but mostly they were #3 and #4 guys on a Championship caliber starting rotation.

They aren't busts, but clearly none of them panned out to be good enough to win a playoff series, much less a Championship or be a dynasty.

I get your point but Moncada put it together in 2019. I had high hopes for him the next 2 seasons, but it’s the Sox so I should have known better.



I think that Moncada is pretty much a dog.

_________________
An Ode to the Texas man who shot an Antifa terrorist:

Oh, he might have went on livin'
But he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the Ranger
With the big iron on his hip


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group