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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 5:42 am 
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Warren Newson wrote:
I like the idea of having a good defense, but I'm not going to trust this new fangled defense until I see it in action. I have a suspicion that it's just being used as a cover to bring in cheap and mediocre players.


Entirely possible. Perhaps even likely.

Warren Newson wrote:
This team doesn't have a bullpen


I don't know if that's true or not. Bullpens are so fickle it's impossible to say. There have been years when the conventional wisdom was that the bullpen was a strength on paper and it just killed the team. I think we'll have to see. One day you've got wood because you have Liam Hendriks and you signed Joe Kelly and the next day you're in last place and one day you're not going to watch any games because their shitty bullpen is Neal Cotts and Cliff Politte and suddenly they're in the World Series.

Warren Newson wrote:
I'm not someone who thinks that Jimenez, Moncada, Robert, and Vaughn are going to turn into a dynamic heart of the order.


That's fine. But you know it isn't- or wasn't- the viewpoint of most of the fanbase or even most "experts" who comment or write about baseball. Just two years ago those guys were considered a dynamic "core" that was going to have a long "championship window." Now after some injuries and the failure of them to all play well at once, they're considered worthless bums. I would say the most logical answer is that neiither hyperbole is true. If they can stay on the field- and that's a big if- and just have normal seasons, they're a decent batting order. If one or two of them throws up their career year, this team will score a lot more than they are projected to.

Warren Newson wrote:
Therefore, it's going to go as far as it's starting pitching takes it. If: (1) they hold onto Cease, (2) this Fede guy actually found something pitching in Korea, and (3) they get something from Kopech, Crochet, or one of the scrap heap guys, they'll easily clear 63 wins. If they don't, they're going to be as bad as they were at the end of last year.


That's the thing about this defensive approach. It only works if the pitching is good. But just like the hitters, only a couple years ago fans were jizzing themselves over a rotation of Cease-Kopech-Crochet.

One things I've learned is that baseball is a funny game. There is a very slim margin between the best teams and the worst teams. And you're never as good as you look when you win and never as bad as you look when you lose.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 10:07 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
...you're never as good as you look when you win and never as bad as you look when you lose.


Rick Hahn was able to do something special last year and build a team that looked bad all the time.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 10:30 am 
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vitoscotti wrote:
Worst home run call ever?



Gay

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 3:21 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
That's fine. But you know it isn't- or wasn't- the viewpoint of most of the fanbase or even most "experts" who comment or write about baseball. Just two years ago those guys were considered a dynamic "core" that was going to have a long "championship window...they're a decent batting order. If one or two of them throws up their career year, this team will score a lot more than they are projected to.
This can all be true, but its more of an indictment on Jerry/Kenny/Sox Mgmt than anything else. These guys are good, not great players, so the Sox needed to add more pieces around them to build a Championship team. They easily could have done this, but chose to make money for their investors than give the fans a payoff.

Fuck them all.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 3:46 pm 
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WestmontMike wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
...you're never as good as you look when you win and never as bad as you look when you lose.


Rick Hahn was able to do something special last year and build a team that looked bad all the time.

:lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 4:07 pm 
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The Mitch Keller signing may yield them a reasonable prospect in July.

Meanwhile, I am at home recovering from Type A flu, and I was killing time by watching the Pirates game. I heard that Grandal hasn't caught in a game since February 27 due to an injury.

The Pirates ability to do stupid things is only exceeded by the Rockies.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2024 4:09 pm 
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vitoscotti wrote:
Worst home run call ever?




"HEY NOW..."

Early returns are not good.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2024 1:31 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
I like the idea of having a good defense, but I'm not going to trust this new fangled defense until I see it in action. I have a suspicion that it's just being used as a cover to bring in cheap and mediocre players.


Entirely possible. Perhaps even likely.

Warren Newson wrote:
This team doesn't have a bullpen


I don't know if that's true or not. Bullpens are so fickle it's impossible to say. There have been years when the conventional wisdom was that the bullpen was a strength on paper and it just killed the team. I think we'll have to see. One day you've got wood because you have Liam Hendriks and you signed Joe Kelly and the next day you're in last place and one day you're not going to watch any games because their shitty bullpen is Neal Cotts and Cliff Politte and suddenly they're in the World Series.

Warren Newson wrote:
I'm not someone who thinks that Jimenez, Moncada, Robert, and Vaughn are going to turn into a dynamic heart of the order.


That's fine. But you know it isn't- or wasn't- the viewpoint of most of the fanbase or even most "experts" who comment or write about baseball. Just two years ago those guys were considered a dynamic "core" that was going to have a long "championship window." Now after some injuries and the failure of them to all play well at once, they're considered worthless bums. I would say the most logical answer is that neiither hyperbole is true. If they can stay on the field- and that's a big if- and just have normal seasons, they're a decent batting order. If one or two of them throws up their career year, this team will score a lot more than they are projected to.

Warren Newson wrote:
Therefore, it's going to go as far as it's starting pitching takes it. If: (1) they hold onto Cease, (2) this Fede guy actually found something pitching in Korea, and (3) they get something from Kopech, Crochet, or one of the scrap heap guys, they'll easily clear 63 wins. If they don't, they're going to be as bad as they were at the end of last year.


That's the thing about this defensive approach. It only works if the pitching is good. But just like the hitters, only a couple years ago fans were jizzing themselves over a rotation of Cease-Kopech-Crochet.

One things I've learned is that baseball is a funny game. There is a very slim margin between the best teams and the worst teams. And you're never as good as you look when you win and never as bad as you look when you lose.


Concerning the heart of the order, I was one of those guys who thought we were into something good two years ago, but we have more data on these guys now and (with the exception of Robert), they're guys who have shown they can't carry a team. Eloy's an above average hitter, but for a guy who gives you no defense, he needs to consistently hit 30 homers a year or be well above 800 OPS. We've seen Moncada's career year. Finally, while I still think Vaughn will put together a season where he hits 30 homers, his base line is pretty much what we've seen.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2024 7:32 am 
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Warren Newson wrote:
Concerning the heart of the order, I was one of those guys who thought we were into something good two years ago, but we have more data on these guys now and (with the exception of Robert), they're guys who have shown they can't carry a team. Eloy's an above average hitter, but for a guy who gives you no defense, he needs to consistently hit 30 homers a year or be well above 800 OPS. We've seen Moncada's career year. Finally, while I still think Vaughn will put together a season where he hits 30 homers, his base line is pretty much what we've seen.


I don't get excited about prospects so I was never jacked up about any of those guys before they hit the big leagues. But I'll say this- very few guys are Hall of Famers. Most starters have an elite season or two and then they're just average and then they get worse and then their career is over.

The key is having guys who will be viewed in retrospect as just good players put together their best seasons all at once. The Cubs are a great example. When their careers are over I'll bet a lot of money that Luis Robert and Yoan Moncada have better numbers than Javy Baez and Kris Bryant. But the Cubs got the best seasons out of Baez and Bryant at the same time and it yielded a deep playoff run and a World Series. Robert will probably have his best season on an otherwise shitty team and Moncada will probably have his in Oakland.

It's not easy to build a championship team. Even the Yankees don't seem capable anymore.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2024 9:19 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
Concerning the heart of the order, I was one of those guys who thought we were into something good two years ago, but we have more data on these guys now and (with the exception of Robert), they're guys who have shown they can't carry a team. Eloy's an above average hitter, but for a guy who gives you no defense, he needs to consistently hit 30 homers a year or be well above 800 OPS. We've seen Moncada's career year. Finally, while I still think Vaughn will put together a season where he hits 30 homers, his base line is pretty much what we've seen.


I don't get excited about prospects so I was never jacked up about any of those guys before they hit the big leagues. But I'll say this- very few guys are Hall of Famers. Most starters have an elite season or two and then they're just average and then they get worse and then their career is over.

The key is having guys who will be viewed in retrospect as just good players put together their best seasons all at once. The Cubs are a great example. When their careers are over I'll bet a lot of money that Luis Robert and Yoan Moncada have better numbers than Javy Baez and Kris Bryant. But the Cubs got the best seasons out of Baez and Bryant at the same time and it yielded a deep playoff run and a World Series. Robert will probably have his best season on an otherwise shitty team and Moncada will probably have his in Oakland.

It's not easy to build a championship team. Even the Yankees don't seem capable anymore.

The season is too long. Baseball has become drudgery. You have a bunch of CEO players being managed by agents, sports psychologists, and team sabremetricians. You have a cookie cutter manager and nothing is surprising. Everything is routine. It's factory work. Even the celebrations are scripted.

There's a secret sauce when you get in the playoffs. This Bochy guy has the recipe.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2024 9:32 am 
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The season is only too long when your team blows. Everyday games are awesome when you don’t hate the guys on the field.

The celebrations have become incredibly gay. Whoever thought up that dumbass hat/jacket thing last year should be castrated or forced to watch Sox Math.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2024 11:04 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
Concerning the heart of the order, I was one of those guys who thought we were into something good two years ago, but we have more data on these guys now and (with the exception of Robert), they're guys who have shown they can't carry a team. Eloy's an above average hitter, but for a guy who gives you no defense, he needs to consistently hit 30 homers a year or be well above 800 OPS. We've seen Moncada's career year. Finally, while I still think Vaughn will put together a season where he hits 30 homers, his base line is pretty much what we've seen.


I don't get excited about prospects so I was never jacked up about any of those guys before they hit the big leagues. But I'll say this- very few guys are Hall of Famers. Most starters have an elite season or two and then they're just average and then they get worse and then their career is over.

The key is having guys who will be viewed in retrospect as just good players put together their best seasons all at once. The Cubs are a great example. When their careers are over I'll bet a lot of money that Luis Robert and Yoan Moncada have better numbers than Javy Baez and Kris Bryant. But the Cubs got the best seasons out of Baez and Bryant at the same time and it yielded a deep playoff run and a World Series. Robert will probably have his best season on an otherwise shitty team and Moncada will probably have his in Oakland.

It's not easy to build a championship team. Even the Yankees don't seem capable anymore.


I'm not talking about Hall of Famers here. In the late 90's, the Sox brought up Konerko, Lee, and Ordonez. Would it have been impossible to have two of the guys listed above hit at that level?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2024 11:13 am 
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Warren Newson wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
Concerning the heart of the order, I was one of those guys who thought we were into something good two years ago, but we have more data on these guys now and (with the exception of Robert), they're guys who have shown they can't carry a team. Eloy's an above average hitter, but for a guy who gives you no defense, he needs to consistently hit 30 homers a year or be well above 800 OPS. We've seen Moncada's career year. Finally, while I still think Vaughn will put together a season where he hits 30 homers, his base line is pretty much what we've seen.


I don't get excited about prospects so I was never jacked up about any of those guys before they hit the big leagues. But I'll say this- very few guys are Hall of Famers. Most starters have an elite season or two and then they're just average and then they get worse and then their career is over.

The key is having guys who will be viewed in retrospect as just good players put together their best seasons all at once. The Cubs are a great example. When their careers are over I'll bet a lot of money that Luis Robert and Yoan Moncada have better numbers than Javy Baez and Kris Bryant. But the Cubs got the best seasons out of Baez and Bryant at the same time and it yielded a deep playoff run and a World Series. Robert will probably have his best season on an otherwise shitty team and Moncada will probably have his in Oakland.

It's not easy to build a championship team. Even the Yankees don't seem capable anymore.


I'm not talking about Hall of Famers here. In the late 90's, the Sox brought up Konerko, Lee, and Ordonez. Would it have been impossible to have two of the guys listed above hit at that level?


I doubt the current guys will have the careers those guys did, but I don't think it's outlandish for Eloy, Robert, and Moncada to put together seasons comparable to what they did in say 2004. And that was a good offensive team. Of course, there was a Hall of Famer on it too.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 11:29 am 
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Yay, more Royals!

https://soxmachine.com/2024/03/white-so ... ad-keller/

This organization is a joke.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 11:57 am 
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Why are the White Sox always a dumpster fire? Well when they constantly make moves like sending offensive machines such as Oscar Colas and his 580 0PS to the minors, well that's your answer


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 12:11 pm 
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If anyone would know dumpster fires, its Vaccinated White Sox Fan Bob :D

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 2:31 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
I like the idea of having a good defense, but I'm not going to trust this new fangled defense until I see it in action. I have a suspicion that it's just being used as a cover to bring in cheap and mediocre players.


Entirely possible. Perhaps even likely.

Warren Newson wrote:
This team doesn't have a bullpen


I don't know if that's true or not. Bullpens are so fickle it's impossible to say. There have been years when the conventional wisdom was that the bullpen was a strength on paper and it just killed the team. I think we'll have to see. One day you've got wood because you have Liam Hendriks and you signed Joe Kelly and the next day you're in last place and one day you're not going to watch any games because their shitty bullpen is Neal Cotts and Cliff Politte and suddenly they're in the World Series.

Warren Newson wrote:
I'm not someone who thinks that Jimenez, Moncada, Robert, and Vaughn are going to turn into a dynamic heart of the order.


That's fine. But you know it isn't- or wasn't- the viewpoint of most of the fanbase or even most "experts" who comment or write about baseball. Just two years ago those guys were considered a dynamic "core" that was going to have a long "championship window." Now after some injuries and the failure of them to all play well at once, they're considered worthless bums. I would say the most logical answer is that neiither hyperbole is true. If they can stay on the field- and that's a big if- and just have normal seasons, they're a decent batting order. If one or two of them throws up their career year, this team will score a lot more than they are projected to.

Warren Newson wrote:
Therefore, it's going to go as far as it's starting pitching takes it. If: (1) they hold onto Cease, (2) this Fede guy actually found something pitching in Korea, and (3) they get something from Kopech, Crochet, or one of the scrap heap guys, they'll easily clear 63 wins. If they don't, they're going to be as bad as they were at the end of last year.


That's the thing about this defensive approach. It only works if the pitching is good. But just like the hitters, only a couple years ago fans were jizzing themselves over a rotation of Cease-Kopech-Crochet.

One things I've learned is that baseball is a funny game. There is a very slim margin between the best teams and the worst teams. And you're never as good as you look when you win and never as bad as you look when you lose.



Come-on. Trust me, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between lets say the Chicago White Sox and the LA Dodgers.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 7:02 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
vitoscotti wrote:
Worst home run call ever?




"HEY NOW..."

Early returns are not good.

UFB (not really), Sox find a guy worse than Benetti.

Meanwhile, the GWS Giants clobbered the Collingwood Magpies in their opener. Get on bored. Aussie Rules will rule in future as it's a perfect game.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2024 11:07 pm 
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Since Bernstein is against the new guy, whatever his name is, I am for him. Jump on board the HEY NOW train.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 2:24 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Warren Newson wrote:
Concerning the heart of the order, I was one of those guys who thought we were into something good two years ago, but we have more data on these guys now and (with the exception of Robert), they're guys who have shown they can't carry a team. Eloy's an above average hitter, but for a guy who gives you no defense, he needs to consistently hit 30 homers a year or be well above 800 OPS. We've seen Moncada's career year. Finally, while I still think Vaughn will put together a season where he hits 30 homers, his base line is pretty much what we've seen.


I don't get excited about prospects so I was never jacked up about any of those guys before they hit the big leagues. But I'll say this- very few guys are Hall of Famers. Most starters have an elite season or two and then they're just average and then they get worse and then their career is over.

The key is having guys who will be viewed in retrospect as just good players put together their best seasons all at once. The Cubs are a great example. When their careers are over I'll bet a lot of money that Luis Robert and Yoan Moncada have better numbers than Javy Baez and Kris Bryant. But the Cubs got the best seasons out of Baez and Bryant at the same time and it yielded a deep playoff run and a World Series. Robert will probably have his best season on an otherwise shitty team and Moncada will probably have his in Oakland.

It's not easy to build a championship team. Even the Yankees don't seem capable anymore.


I'm not talking about Hall of Famers here. In the late 90's, the Sox brought up Konerko, Lee, and Ordonez. Would it have been impossible to have two of the guys listed above hit at that level?


I doubt the current guys will have the careers those guys did, but I don't think it's outlandish for Eloy, Robert, and Moncada to put together seasons comparable to what they did in say 2004. And that was a good offensive team. Of course, there was a Hall of Famer on it too.


I think it is outlandish. History tells me the current crop cannot and will not put those seasons together. If they did, with the starting pitching the White Sox amassed, they wouldn't be rebuilding again.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 11:24 am 
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Warren Newson wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I doubt the current guys will have the careers those guys did, but I don't think it's outlandish for Eloy, Robert, and Moncada to put together seasons comparable to what they did in say 2004. And that was a good offensive team. Of course, there was a Hall of Famer on it too.
I think it is outlandish. History tells me the current crop cannot and will not put those seasons together. If they did, with the starting pitching the White Sox amassed, they wouldn't be rebuilding again.
Maybe not that outlandish. In 2004, Big Frank played in 74 games (311 PA) and Mags 52 games (222 PA) due to injury. Moncada and Eloy could easily do the same this season.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 12:53 pm 
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:lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 3:55 pm 
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It really is unbelievable how many former Royals are there.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 7:09 pm 
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The Hawk wrote:
Trust me, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between lets say the Chicago White Sox and the LA Dodgers.


On paper the Dodgers should win the World Series. They probably won't.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2024 7:27 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The Hawk wrote:
Trust me, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between lets say the Chicago White Sox and the LA Dodgers.


On paper the Dodgers should win the World Series. They probably won't.

Does that somehow make you feel better? This is like Bears fans taking shots at the Packers for only winning 1 SB with Rodgers while their team sucked ass. I’ll take my chances with a good team any day.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 9:35 am 
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Sox are 4-13 so far this Spring and Kopech got shelled again needing 60 pitches to cover 6 outs.

That is not good.

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What's nice about being a bottom dweller is you can tell Kopech to throw strikes or he won't be a starter. But they probably won't. This shit is simple. He has the stuff where he doesn't have to throw it in a tea cup. But he should know that when he's behind, that rule isn't quite the same. You learn a lot more hammering the strike zone than you'll ever learn wasting pitches. Sabremetrics being scared of balls in play has ruined much of pitcher development. Kopech is exhibit A.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:05 am 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The Hawk wrote:
Trust me, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between lets say the Chicago White Sox and the LA Dodgers.


On paper the Dodgers should win the World Series. They probably won't.

Does that somehow make you feel better? This is like Bears fans taking shots at the Packers for only winning 1 SB with Rodgers while their team sucked ass. I’ll take my chances with a good team any day.



I'm not sure what you mean. You don't know what a "good team" is until they play the games.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:06 am 
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Neither do you, because you think the 2006 Sox were better than the 2005 Sox.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:13 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Neither do you, because you think the 2006 Sox were better than the 2005 Sox.

Maybe if Buerhle hadn't sucked and Thome didn't go belly up in August. But those two things happened, so no.


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