Bogut being injured and Draymond being suspended were bigger variables in the Warriors losing that series than Steph getting outplayed by Kyrie.

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His pride was hurt more than anything. He also thoroughly outplayed him on Christmas Day too. At some point we got to call it on that one. Playoff basketball exposed Curry in general. He didn't play particularly well during the previous playoffs year before either.

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Classic revisionism.

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I can't be OK with Chris Sale being traded and not OK with a potential Jimmy Butler trade. But it won't happen regardless.

Bulls traded a future 1st.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/draft_release_040624.html

(It was Nate Robinson)

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Maybe Gordon and Deng but Williams (2002) and Hinrich (2003) were right after Curry/Chandler (2001) and Crawford (2000) so a year or so for two high schoolers to develop isn't enough, and maybe another lottery pick was expected at the time.



I don't think I understand where you say I'm having it both ways. My point to you and IMU is that by sucking between 1999-2001 the Bulls built a core around four lottery picks by 2002 (Curry, Chandler, Crawford, and Williams). Of course that group didn't pan out for various reasons, but the question is this: would you keep Butler, or would you trade him for another chance to build a core comprised of 1-3 lottery picks? I'm of the latter opinion.

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

I'd keep Butler. What are the chances any of 3 first rounders becomes a Top 10 player?

You have a Top 10 player now...why ax him because the front office sucks? Pax and Gar would just screw up the picks anyway.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Depends on the draft. Last years draft had two to three guys that were top 10 guys. Butler isn't a top ten guy either. If he was the market for him would be much greater than it is. The rumored deals last summer weren't all that enticing for a guy you consider top ten.

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Butler is a Top 10 guy

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

Guys currently better:

1. Lebron James

2. James Harden

3. Kevin Durant

4. Russell Westbrook

5. Anthony Davis

6. Kyrie Irving

7. Steph Curry

8. Demarcus Cousins

9. Chris Paul

10. Giannis (Greek Freak)

11. Kawhi Leonard

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Incorrect.

No one agrees with your list. Stop posting it.

The fact that you have Demarcus Cousins on there completely negates it. What a joke.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

I don't think he's a guy who can lead a supporting cast to the promised land. As such, yeah I'd def trade him for picks and/or current or former lottery picks. The front office does suck indeed, I agree. But, who knows, maybe they strike gold by virtue of dumb luck like they did in 2008. I'd rather have the promise of lottery picks and a young core over Jimmy Butler and the members of the 2007 All NBA team.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

There isn't an NBA guy on the planet that believes Jimmy Butler is a better basketball player than Demarcus Cousins. Not one.

Speak for yourself. Don't presume to know what the board's consensus happens to be.

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I do not intend to wade into this very fine debate. I just wanted to point out that you are presuming to know what the NBA guy consensus is. And you are chiding IMU for presuming about the board consensus.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Cousins has been presumed to be a top 10 player for at least 2 years now. He is also considered by MANY to be the best center in the league currently. Butler is possibly the 6th or 7th best at his position. I left a couple of guys off that are arguably better for the purpose of not arguing.

The guys I placed are no doubt better.

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I have no opinion on the matter. I don't watch enough NBA to have an informed thought. I was merely pointing out that you were doing the same thing you requested that IMU not do.

I like when you two tangle.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

That's some bullshit and you know it, and I'm not a guy who thinks Butler is franchise.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

1. LeBron James

2. Kevin Durant

3. Kawhi

4. Giannis

5 Paul George?

6. DeMar Derozan?

Those stats that people keep citing for Butler also don't materialize either. Im not an advanced Stat guy but his advanced stats aren't blowing everyone else out of the water.

We also have to see how the rest of the season plays out.

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DeRozan plays G and Butler's D puts him above DeRozan anyway, even if Butler is schooled by the likes of Durant and LBJ (isn't everyone?). Giannis is technically a PG but I'd take him over Butler based on age and potential. Butler is more of a finished product IMO.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

Munenori Kawasaki had a .462 OBP in 2016. Yet nobody is saying that Munenori Kawasaki is better than Mike Trout, how could that be? Because any analysis of their differing OBP's which concludes "Kawasaki > Trout" must be inherently flawed, and nothing of consequence is gleaned about the "real value" of OBP as a metric. Kanter is better in PER than Steph Curry, but the statement "Kanter > Curry" can only come from an inherently flawed analysis literally no one is making.

Also, you said "one of the more..." when referencing PER, so you seem to realize both that there are other advanced stats and that a valuation of player performance should incorporate at least two of them, yet you insist on being difficult and disingenuous. Why?

I really would like to open it up and just include all swingmen guys. Giannis is a 3 based upon who he guards. He doesn't guard 1's. Butler runs a lot of point too Ugh! particularly in the 2nd halves of games.

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Because of the stats based nature of most discussions. If look at they guys that comprise the top 20 in the offensive rating there isn't one that you'd run a play for. I love Patrick but the next time any Houston coach calls his number hold a parade.

There are far too many anomalies found in advanced stats. I give Butler a tremendous amount of credit for his D but he isn't even in the top 20 in terms of defensive rating. Pau Gasol is though. If a person didn't know any better they'd assume that Gobert was one of the best in the league.

That's A problem.

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Are you setting a minutes or starts requirement? Because otherwise you're going to run into the problem of thinking Munenori Kawasaki is actually better at getting on base than Mike Trout. With a minimum of 20 minutes per game, here are some guys in the top-20 of ORtg:

Chris Paul
Rudy Gobert
Kyle Lowry
Kevin Durant
Jimmy Butler
Kawhi Leonard
Jonas Valenciunas
Stephen Curry
James Harden
Giannis

Run a play for any of them?



DRtg is going to favor big men, always has. Thabo is the only true guard in the top-10 of Defensive Rating with a minimum of 20 MP/G, and after him you have to go to 15 to find the next true guard, and wer'e already at 101 points per 100 possessions. Jimmy is, however in the top-25 in Defensive Win Shares, where he's tied with Pau, Steven Adams, Chris Paul and others.



Are you saying that if a person only looked at a few rate-based metrics without accounting for minutes or games played, they'd come to an erroneous conclusion? Yeah, so?

And dude, Gobert is having a tremendous season, he's almost 10 whole blocks ahead of the 2 guys behind him (Anthony Davis and Myles Turner, btw), who themselves are almost 20 blocks ahead of the rest of the league. He's averaging almost 3 blocks per 36 minutes, and more than 4 blocks per 100 possessions, all while being incredibly efficient (leads the league in True Shooting %) and averaging a double-double (4th in the league in total offensive rebounds, as well). By nearly any measure you can think of, he's having a tremendous season. In this case, the numbers match the eye test.

No one runs plays for Gobert. If the metric favors guys that simply dunk then there's a problem with the metric. I see you left off a lot of guys from the top 20 also.

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Except dunking is the highest-percentage "shot" in basketball, shouldn't a metric reward players that can do it well?



You said:



I listed 10 marquee names in the top-20 with proper minutes requirements. If you up the minutes requirement to 25+, the names on that list will be better and better. Tell me, when shifting goalposts doesn't work, what do you have left?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... yers-2016/

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2680 ... ow/page/19

And the NBA addicts over at r/nba/ seem to agree more than not that Butler is a Top 10 player in 2016-17.

As soon as publications and writers release mid-season player power rankings, I assume you'll see Butler over Cousins (and many others) essentially universally.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Cousins, as a center, this season is shooting .449 If we're going to talk about bad shooting and scoring solely based on "shot attempts," why do you rip on Butler but not Cousins (or Carmelo?)

Furthermore...if we're talking about isoball...Butler has more assists than Cousins has. Last season, Cousins was #1 overall in Usage Pct and this year is #2 overall.

Cousins is isoball.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.