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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:57 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
We've been over this but you need to look at more than the traditional stats. They are basically identical in WS/48. Butler has him in WS overall and offensive rating. Giannis is slightly ahead in PER and VORP. He's certainly not "decidedly" better.

Also, and I tried explaining this during last years playoffs to you, a three game sample size is practically useless.



Maybe you need to get better at explaining. Not decidedly better? Chalk it up to another in a rather long list of terrible hoops thoughts.

He wasn’t decidedly better at the time. It’s embarrassing this needs to keep being explained to you.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:55 pm 
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IMU wrote:
You are the only NBA fan that thinks Cousins is better. Give it up.



You presume to speak for all NBA fans? You? :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:58 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
We've been over this but you need to look at more than the traditional stats. They are basically identical in WS/48. Butler has him in WS overall and offensive rating. Giannis is slightly ahead in PER and VORP. He's certainly not "decidedly" better.

Also, and I tried explaining this during last years playoffs to you, a three game sample size is practically useless.



Maybe you need to get better at explaining. Not decidedly better? Chalk it up to another in a rather long list of terrible hoops thoughts.

He wasn’t decidedly better at the time. It’s embarrassing this needs to keep being explained to you.


We can dispute that. I'm not because the answer was clear at the time. It's murder now. Same with Kyrie and Cousins.

How about the 50 win Wolves? You still think that's going to happen.

I'm willing to admit that I was wrong about them. Are you?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:17 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
We've been over this but you need to look at more than the traditional stats. They are basically identical in WS/48. Butler has him in WS overall and offensive rating. Giannis is slightly ahead in PER and VORP. He's certainly not "decidedly" better.

Also, and I tried explaining this during last years playoffs to you, a three game sample size is practically useless.



Maybe you need to get better at explaining. Not decidedly better? Chalk it up to another in a rather long list of terrible hoops thoughts.

He wasn’t decidedly better at the time. It’s embarrassing this needs to keep being explained to you.


We can dispute that. I'm not because the answer was clear at the time. It's murder now. Same with Kyrie and Cousins.

How about the 50 win Wolves? You still think that's going to happen.

I'm willing to admit that I was wrong about them. Are you?

Not yet, no. I still think the Wolves are good. We'll see what happens over the next few months.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:51 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
IMU wrote:
You are the only NBA fan that thinks Cousins is better. Give it up.



You presume to speak for all NBA fans? You? :lol: :lol:

I didn't need to speak for them. I linked you to their own words.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:07 pm 
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IMU wrote:
long time guy wrote:
IMU wrote:
You are the only NBA fan that thinks Cousins is better. Give it up.



You presume to speak for all NBA fans? You? :lol: :lol:

I didn't need to speak for them. I linked you to their own words.



You sure?

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/12/8 ... r-rankings

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:11 pm 
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Sample size.

You know, the reason you cite Carmelo as better over Butler. If you're going to use sample size, you have to always use sample size.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:17 pm 
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IMU wrote:
Sample size.

You know, the reason you cite Carmelo as better over Butler. If you're going to use sample size, you have to always use sample size.


Nah this will be the case going forward. I prefer to get ahead of the story. Each of the guys that I cited have been better for at least the past year.

As far as sample size goes you never use that in your assessments. You didn't do it with Anthony nor Josh Smith/ Taj.

You also didn't do it when you thought Butler was better. You had him as a Hall of fame candidate after 1-2 good seasons in the league. WYC?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:33 pm 
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Ah, you bring up Taj Gibson. CLEARLY the better NBA player.

Yesterday you accused me of thinking Jimmy Butler would be out of the league a few years ago. Now you accuse me of saying I had him as a Hall of Famer after 1-2 years. Do you realize how much stuff you make up?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:51 pm 
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IMU wrote:
Ah, you bring up Taj Gibson. CLEARLY the better NBA player.

Yesterday you accused me of thinking Jimmy Butler would be out of the league a few years ago. Now you accuse me of saying I had him as a Hall of Famer after 1-2 years. Do you realize how much stuff you make up?


Nah I remember you to be a Butler detractor. You changed your beat (and your screen name) "master of the obvious" style the first year he became good.

Josh Smith was also better at the time I said that he was. Check his numbers with Houston and contrast them with Taj's from that season. Also a better player throughout his career too.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:01 pm 
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My screenname is the same. It became abbreviated. All the posts are still under this account, my only account. Don't try to make up excuses as to why you can't find it.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:07 pm 
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I never thought Butler would be out of the league in a few years but I was for sure wrong on him early. Even after he started flashing a bit I still thought he was just Tony Allen. Asinine thought.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:17 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
I never thought Butler would be out of the league in a few years but I was for sure wrong on him early. Even after he started flashing a bit I still thought he was just Tony Allen. Asinine thought.


Butler greatly exceeded his expectations but I think he’s still a touch overrated.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:33 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
I never thought Butler would be out of the league in a few years but I was for sure wrong on him early. Even after he started flashing a bit I still thought he was just Tony Allen. Asinine thought.


I liked him early but I'd be lying if I thought he would become the player he has become. He is a good player. I don't believe he is a great player. Definitely not a guy you build around. He never realized that just because you are a team's best player it doesn't mean that you are a franchise player. He attempted to use leverage that he didn't necessarily have and it adversely effected the team. He has admitted as much since he was traded. Admitted that it came down to him or Hoiberg and they chose Hoiberg.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:39 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I never thought Butler would be out of the league in a few years but I was for sure wrong on him early. Even after he started flashing a bit I still thought he was just Tony Allen. Asinine thought.


I liked him early but I'd be lying if I thought he would become the player he has become. He is a good player. I don't believe he is a great player. Definitely not a guy you build around. He never realized that just because you are a team's best player it doesn't mean that you are a franchise player. He attempted to use leverage that he didn't necessarily have and it adversely effected the team. He has admitted as much since he was traded. Admitted that it came down to him or Hoiberg and they chose Hoiberg.

Source?

What he said was that it was clear him and Hoiberg had contrasting styles/philosophies, and that the team had to choose between the two, and that the team rightfully chose the coach over the player. That’s exactly what I want my star player to say even if it’s clearly bullshit.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:48 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I never thought Butler would be out of the league in a few years but I was for sure wrong on him early. Even after he started flashing a bit I still thought he was just Tony Allen. Asinine thought.


I liked him early but I'd be lying if I thought he would become the player he has become. He is a good player. I don't believe he is a great player. Definitely not a guy you build around. He never realized that just because you are a team's best player it doesn't mean that you are a franchise player. He attempted to use leverage that he didn't necessarily have and it adversely effected the team. He has admitted as much since he was traded. Admitted that it came down to him or Hoiberg and they chose Hoiberg.

Source?

What he said was that it was clear him and Hoiberg had contrasting styles/philosophies, and that the team had to choose between the two, and that the team rightfully chose the coach over the player. That’s exactly what I want my star player to say even if it’s clearly bullshit.


If he gives them an ultimatum then that's trying to use leverage.

http://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/ ... -thibodeau

Bobby Portis isn't going to make that sort of ultimatum.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:59 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I never thought Butler would be out of the league in a few years but I was for sure wrong on him early. Even after he started flashing a bit I still thought he was just Tony Allen. Asinine thought.


I liked him early but I'd be lying if I thought he would become the player he has become. He is a good player. I don't believe he is a great player. Definitely not a guy you build around. He never realized that just because you are a team's best player it doesn't mean that you are a franchise player. He attempted to use leverage that he didn't necessarily have and it adversely effected the team. He has admitted as much since he was traded. Admitted that it came down to him or Hoiberg and they chose Hoiberg.

Source?

What he said was that it was clear him and Hoiberg had contrasting styles/philosophies, and that the team had to choose between the two, and that the team rightfully chose the coach over the player. That’s exactly what I want my star player to say even if it’s clearly bullshit.


If he gives them an ultimatum then that's trying to use leverage.

http://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/ ... -thibodeau

Bobby Portis isn't going to make that sort of ultimatum.

Your post and link don’t back up your claim. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you worded it wrong in the bolded part.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:01 pm 
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He was a Caller Bob. So happy he is gone.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:03 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
I never thought Butler would be out of the league in a few years but I was for sure wrong on him early. Even after he started flashing a bit I still thought he was just Tony Allen. Asinine thought.


I liked him early but I'd be lying if I thought he would become the player he has become. He is a good player. I don't believe he is a great player. Definitely not a guy you build around. He never realized that just because you are a team's best player it doesn't mean that you are a franchise player. He attempted to use leverage that he didn't necessarily have and it adversely effected the team. He has admitted as much since he was traded. Admitted that it came down to him or Hoiberg and they chose Hoiberg.

Source?

What he said was that it was clear him and Hoiberg had contrasting styles/philosophies, and that the team had to choose between the two, and that the team rightfully chose the coach over the player. That’s exactly what I want my star player to say even if it’s clearly bullshit.


If he gives them an ultimatum then that's trying to use leverage.

http://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/ ... -thibodeau

Bobby Portis isn't going to make that sort of ultimatum.

Your post and link don’t back up your claim. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you worded it wrong in the bolded part.



What part was I wrong about? Let's not be vague either.

The part about effecting the team is my opinion. I never meant that it was Butler's.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:06 am 
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long time guy wrote:
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Not really sold on Dunn. Lavine looks like a good scorer on bad teams. Wait and see on 7th pick. This is very unlike Paxson. Me likes it. Trades a malcontent coming off his best season. 3 potential starters all young. This is a big time gamble.



Yea I'm pretty sure you've already said as much that Dunn sucks :lol:


Hoping it's the Thibs effect. Hoiball will get him right.



Correctomundo

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:08 am 
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Dunn looked very good during the summer league last season. Know it's summer league but you have to start somewhere. Never looked good once the season started.

Thibs is overrated overall but he is a terrible coach for rookies.



Yep.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:47 am 
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Thibodeau clearly provided Dunn with the discipline he needed during his rookie season, just like he did with Butler and others. Thibodeau wouldn't have drafted Dunn if he sucked.

Care to discuss Butler in the Butler thread?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:57 am 
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IMU wrote:
Thibodeau clearly provided Dunn with the discipline he needed during his rookie season, just like he did with Butler and others. Thibodeau wouldn't have drafted Dunn if he sucked.

Care to discuss Butler in the Butler thread?


So much discipline that most people in the league thought the kid may be a bust.

Butler is currently doing well. I won't take that away from him. However its the same thing that we witnessed with the Bulls. He plays well against shitty teams with B rate players.

He comes up small against elite players. I don't put much stock in numbers that are piled up against shitty teams. You do. That is why your observations are often meaningless.

Let's see what happens this month.

You will have your customary excuses ready though. You always do. Just like "instilling discipline". Just the latest one. If Hoiberg is such a terrible coach then he'd already have undone that.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:56 am 
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Speaking of meaningless observations, it was you who thought the kid may be a bust. Who else?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:00 am 
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IMU wrote:
Speaking of meaningless observations, it was you who thought the kid may be a bust. Who else?


That is where Thibs factored in. Should never have trusted his rundown. I loved Dunn before i hated him. Do you want me to bump that?


viewtopic.php?f=91&t=101052&p=2592234&hilit=dunn+real#p2592234

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:05 am 
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IMU wrote:
Speaking of meaningless observations, it was you who thought the kid may be a bust. Who else?


That is where Thibs factored in. Should never have trusted his rundown. I loved Dunn before i hated him. Do you want me to bump that?


http://www.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopi ... l#p2592234


You were for it before you were against it?

That doomed John Kerry.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:07 am 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
long time guy wrote:
IMU wrote:
Speaking of meaningless observations, it was you who thought the kid may be a bust. Who else?


That is where Thibs factored in. Should never have trusted his rundown. I loved Dunn before i hated him. Do you want me to bump that?


viewtopic.php?f=91&t=101052&p=2592234&hilit=dunn+real#p2592234


You were for it before you were against it?

That doomed John Kerry.



Let the record show.

viewtopic.php?f=91&t=101052&p=2507154&hilit=dunn+summer#p2507154

There were a few instances during last season where i posted that he "looked like a flop" or "looked like a bust".

Dunn is probably the one thing that i didn't attribute to Thibs. He could defend. That was obvious but offensively he looked a mess. Didn't look like he had anything.

Completely different player than the guy that played in the Summer league. Obvious now what the source of the problem happened to be.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:37 am 
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I don't get what you are trying to say. That Thibodeau is tough on rookies? We know that.

But I think that helps the player become a better NBA player. You think it causes a regression.

I'm just happy Hoiberg won't be the coach here once Dunn becomes one of the Top 10 PG in the league.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:53 am 
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IMU wrote:
I don't get what you are trying to say. That Thibodeau is tough on rookies? We know that.

But I think that helps the player become a better NBA player. You think it causes a regression.

I'm just happy Hoiberg won't be the coach here once Dunn becomes one of the Top 10 PG in the league.


Don't try and tie Thibs to this kid's development. That's weak even by your standards. If he continued to flop you'd be hailing Thibs (while conversely bashing) GarPax's ability to evaluate talent.

I don't care how well Butler is playing. That's with him actually looking like an All Star too.

That trade is going to haunt the Wolves for years to come. Have to see what Lavine looks like but if he is close to the high scoring guy he was prior to the trade then its already a slam dunk.

If you're a Wolves fan (you're not) it has to be concerning. This dude sold the franchise out in order to make the playoffs.

If he'd stood pat they may have still made the playoffs this year and they'd have been ready to rock for real next year. As it stands now they will be condemned to basketball hell for the foreseeable future.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:58 am 
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Again, I've liked Dunn the entire time and haven't flipped back and forth like you have. So my consistency has shown that I would not have done what you did.

Dunn has had more time under Thibodeau than he has Hoiberg. Thibodeau is recognized around the league as a far better coach than Hoiberg. Thibodeau's rookies never get off to a strong start. History shows that Thibodeau is great at coaching guards and rookies that have poor debuts under him can eventually become good (or great) NBA players.

You have absolutely no pulse reading on the Timberwolves.

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