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 Post subject: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:51 pm 
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Picking on a rebuilding team is unfair, and no fun. The Bulls are bad by design.

But holy god, they are unwatchable. Chicago has scored 92.9 points per 100 possessions, by far the worst mark in the league. The only two worse offenses since 2000, per NBA.com: the tankeriffic Charlotte Bobcats of 2011-12 (barely!), and the 17-win Nuggets of 2002-03 -- two of the worst teams ever.

They are flirting with the worst free throw rate in modern league history. They take a ton of 3s, which would be good if anyone outside of Lauri Markkanen and Denzel Valentine could make them. Scientists have discovered the cure for Zipser Fever.

None of their ball handlers put stress on defenses. Opponents duck under every pick against Jerian Grant and Kris Dunn. (Dunn has potential to be special on defense -- soon.) They switch everything else, daring Chicago's punchless guards to dust big men off the dribble. That has made life unduly difficult for the otherwise sublime Markennen.

Markkanen has more off-the-bounce oomph than expected, but any sweet-shooting big man needs playmakers to draw the kind of help that unlocks easy pick-and-pop jumpers. Markkanen will have to work for all of his points until Zach LaVine's merciful return.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:53 pm 
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HISTORICALLY bad!!

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:53 pm 
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2017.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:04 pm 
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Great Hoiball last night.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:05 pm 
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FAR INFERIOR!

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:36 pm 
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Lowe doesn't talk about the Bulls' giant improvements in interdepartmental communication, perhaps the most important criterion of all for team success in the NBA. Jerry Reinsdorf's deep understanding of this is of course why he's in the Hall of Fame, while Zach Lowe is just some dweeb writing for ESPN.


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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:38 pm 
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The plan is working. Come on down Mr Porter or Mr Bagley

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:48 pm 
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FAR INFERIOR!

AND IT SHALL REMAIN THAT WAY!

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:57 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
The plan is working. Come on down Mr Porter or Mr Bagley



Finally a man with the vision and acumen of Abe Saperstein. The Bulls are attempting to be "historyically bad" and if it doesn't work then they have failed. According to some of the guys in the "know" this draft is extremely top heavy. Read or heard (can't remember) where the top four guys from next year's draft all would have gone first in this year's draft. It behooves the Bulls to lose and lose badly. The same guys on here that are criticizing GarPax now would just as soon be criticizing them if they draft outside of the top 5 or make the playoffs.


If this works the way it should the Bulls will draft in the top 3 over the next two years. If you want to change the trajectory of the franchise the best way to do it as by drafting franchise type players.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:59 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
The same guys on here that are criticizing GarPax now would just as soon be criticizing them if they draft outside of the top 5 or make the playoffs.


You know this is not true yet you post it anyway :lol:

I've been consistently against tanking forever and a few of those discussions were with you.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Posted this reply in another thread but essentially the best way to win is to tank.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:23 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Posted this reply in another thread but essentially the best way to win is to tank.

This gets disproven every time it's brought up. The five best teams in the NBA right now are GS, SA, Houston, Boston, and Cleveland, and none of them were put together through tanking.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:27 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Posted this reply in another thread but essentially the best way to win is to tank.

This gets disproven every time it's brought up. The five best teams in the NBA right now are GS, SA, Houston, Boston, and Cleveland, and none of them were put together through tanking.

Not to mention that the Sixers situation was the product of a GM who fleeced other teams left and right and a whole lot of luck. The Bulls are clearly lacking in the former, so now have to hope they're even luckier than Philly was. This doesn't even get into the coaching and morale issues that tanking inevitably creates and that the Bulls will never address because Reinsdorf hates the idea of paying 2 coaches at one time.


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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:28 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Posted this reply in another thread but essentially the best way to win is to tank.

This gets disproven every time it's brought up. The five best teams in the NBA right now are GS, SA, Houston, Boston, and Cleveland, and none of them were put together through tanking.


I would assume it isn't guaranteed as the draft certainly is not.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:29 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Posted this reply in another thread but essentially the best way to win is to tank.

This gets disproven every time it's brought up. The five best teams in the NBA right now are GS, SA, Houston, Boston, and Cleveland, and none of them were put together through tanking.

Not to mention that the Sixers situation was the product of a GM who fleeced other teams left and right and a whole lot of luck. The Bulls are clearly lacking in the former, so now have to hope they're even luckier than Philly was. This doesn't even get into the coaching and morale issues that tanking inevitably creates and that the Bulls will never address because Reinsdorf hates the idea of paying 2 coaches at one time.

Yup. It's all a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:38 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Posted this reply in another thread but essentially the best way to win is to tank.

This gets disproven every time it's brought up. The five best teams in the NBA right now are GS, SA, Houston, Boston, and Cleveland, and none of them were put together through tanking.



Depends on what your interpretation of "tank" happens to be.

Lets look at the draft position of each because tanking will turn into a semantics debate. I'm not interested in that.


Cleveland was able to sign Lebron James because of the presence of Kyrie Irving (No.1 Overall pick) and Tradeable assets (Anthony Bennett No. 1 pick) and a No. 1 pick which turned into Andrew Wiggins. James doesn't sign without the presence of assets accrued by drafting high.

S.A. became the model franchise every one admires because they lucked into drafting Tim Duncan.


Houston and G.S's situation is the only one that fits the Model of what you are talking about.

Boston became very good because they possessed high drafts.
Without High Draft Picks they can't acquire Irving and Heyward probably doesn't sign there.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:42 pm 
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Duncan was drafted like 20 years ago :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:43 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Cleveland was able to sign Lebron James because of the presence of Kyrie Irving (No.1 Overall pick) and Tradeable assets (Anthony Bennett No. 1 pick) and a No. 1 pick which turned into Andrew Wiggins. James doesn't sign without the presence of assets accrued by drafting high.

None of those draft picks are currently with the team. Love is the only player on the current roster you can say came from tanking, and he's not very good.

Quote:
S.A. became the model franchise every one admires because they lucked into drafting Tim Duncan.

Tim Duncan retired two years ago. Again, none of the current players on SA's roster have come from tanking/high picks.
Quote:
Houston and G.S's situation is the only one that fits the Model of what you are talking about.

As I am currently showing you, this is false.
Quote:
Boston became very good because they possessed high drafts.
Without High Draft Picks they can't acquire Irving and Heyward probably doesn't sign there.

Kyrie didn't sign there and none of the current roster came from tanking, including high draft picks like Brown, Tatum, and Smart.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:43 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Posted this reply in another thread but essentially the best way to win is to tank.

This gets disproven every time it's brought up. The five best teams in the NBA right now are GS, SA, Houston, Boston, and Cleveland, and none of them were put together through tanking.

Not to mention that the Sixers situation was the product of a GM who fleeced other teams left and right and a whole lot of luck. The Bulls are clearly lacking in the former, so now have to hope they're even luckier than Philly was. This doesn't even get into the coaching and morale issues that tanking inevitably creates and that the Bulls will never address because Reinsdorf hates the idea of paying 2 coaches at one time.

Yup. It's all a problem.



Ok when they become a good team again people will comment about how they hate tanking. Philly became good because they tanked.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:44 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Cleveland was able to sign Lebron James because of the presence of Kyrie Irving (No.1 Overall pick) and Tradeable assets (Anthony Bennett No. 1 pick) and a No. 1 pick which turned into Andrew Wiggins. James doesn't sign without the presence of assets accrued by drafting high.

None of those draft picks are currently with the team. Love is the only player on the current roster you can say came from tanking, and he's not very good.

Quote:
S.A. became the model franchise every one admires because they lucked into drafting Tim Duncan.

Tim Duncan retired two years ago. Again, none of the current players on SA's roster have come from tanking/high picks.
Quote:
Houston and G.S's situation is the only one that fits the Model of what you are talking about.

As I am currently showing you, this is false.
Quote:
Boston became very good because they possessed high drafts.
Without High Draft Picks they can't acquire Irving and Heyward probably doesn't sign there.

Kyrie didn't sign there and none of the current roster came from tanking, including high draft picks like Brown, Tatum, and Smart.



The team that Boston put on the floor last season wasn't a championship team. The Bulls were up 2-0 on them remember.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:46 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Posted this reply in another thread but essentially the best way to win is to tank.

This gets disproven every time it's brought up. The five best teams in the NBA right now are GS, SA, Houston, Boston, and Cleveland, and none of them were put together through tanking.

Not to mention that the Sixers situation was the product of a GM who fleeced other teams left and right and a whole lot of luck. The Bulls are clearly lacking in the former, so now have to hope they're even luckier than Philly was. This doesn't even get into the coaching and morale issues that tanking inevitably creates and that the Bulls will never address because Reinsdorf hates the idea of paying 2 coaches at one time.

Yup. It's all a problem.



Ok when they become a good team again people will comment about how they hate tanking. Philly became good because they tanked.

Philly is good because they have a healthy Ben Simmons. And also, they are your only example of success coming from tanking, and they haven't even had much success yet. I just gave you five examples of better teams that rebut the 76ers model also.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:46 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Cleveland was able to sign Lebron James because of the presence of Kyrie Irving (No.1 Overall pick) and Tradeable assets (Anthony Bennett No. 1 pick) and a No. 1 pick which turned into Andrew Wiggins. James doesn't sign without the presence of assets accrued by drafting high.

None of those draft picks are currently with the team. Love is the only player on the current roster you can say came from tanking, and he's not very good.

Quote:
S.A. became the model franchise every one admires because they lucked into drafting Tim Duncan.

Tim Duncan retired two years ago. Again, none of the current players on SA's roster have come from tanking/high picks.
Quote:
Houston and G.S's situation is the only one that fits the Model of what you are talking about.

As I am currently showing you, this is false.
Quote:
Boston became very good because they possessed high drafts.
Without High Draft Picks they can't acquire Irving and Heyward probably doesn't sign there.

Kyrie didn't sign there and none of the current roster came from tanking, including high draft picks like Brown, Tatum, and Smart.



The team that Boston put on the floor last season wasn't a championship team. The Bulls were up 2-0 on them remember.

I remember and I don't know what that has to do with the post you quoted.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:46 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Cleveland was able to sign Lebron James because of the presence of Kyrie Irving (No.1 Overall pick) and Tradeable assets (Anthony Bennett No. 1 pick) and a No. 1 pick which turned into Andrew Wiggins. James doesn't sign without the presence of assets accrued by drafting high.

None of those draft picks are currently with the team. Love is the only player on the current roster you can say came from tanking, and he's not very good.

Quote:
S.A. became the model franchise every one admires because they lucked into drafting Tim Duncan.

Tim Duncan retired two years ago. Again, none of the current players on SA's roster have come from tanking/high picks.
Quote:
Houston and G.S's situation is the only one that fits the Model of what you are talking about.

As I am currently showing you, this is false.
Quote:
Boston became very good because they possessed high drafts.
Without High Draft Picks they can't acquire Irving and Heyward probably doesn't sign there.

Kyrie didn't sign there and none of the current roster came from tanking, including high draft picks like Brown, Tatum, and Smart.




The Championship teams of the Spurs were created because of the drafting of Tim Duncan. I know you love Kawhi Leonard but he hasn't demonstrated that he can be the best player on a championship team.

You are not making much sense. You want to debate who was tanking and who wasn't. That is a matter of semantics on tanking and which franchise admits to doing it.



History has shown that you win with high draft picks.

You want to know why everyone is in love with

Philly? High Draft Picks


Minnesota? High Draft Picks

Boston? High Draft Picks

OKC? High Draft Picks

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Last edited by long time guy on Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:49 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
The Championship teams of the Spurs were created because of the drafting of Tim Duncan. I know you love Kawhi Leonard but he hasn't demonstrated that he can be the best player on a championship team.

Image

:lol: You make this too easy.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:55 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
The Championship teams of the Spurs were created because of the drafting of Tim Duncan. I know you love Kawhi Leonard but he hasn't demonstrated that he can be the best player on a championship team.

Image

:lol: You make this too easy.



You're fairly predictable. I knew that you were going to try and play the MVP card but he wasn't regarded as the best player on that team. Tim Duncan was the best player. When he had to carry them against OKC the next year he couldn't. Durant thoroughly outplayed him.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:57 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
The Championship teams of the Spurs were created because of the drafting of Tim Duncan. I know you love Kawhi Leonard but he hasn't demonstrated that he can be the best player on a championship team.

Image

:lol: You make this too easy.



I knew that you were going to try and play the MVP card but he wasn't regarded as the best player on that team. Tim Duncan was the best player. When he had to carry them against OKC the next year he couldn't. Durant thoroughly outplayed him.

He WAS regarded as their best player because he was. Sorry man, you can't erase history.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:03 pm 
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If you are going to use that as a frame of reference then so was Iggy during G.S's first championship.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:07 pm 
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This stuff is simply becoming too easy for the kid.

Leonard best player in 2013-2014 Ok.



https://www.nba.com/history/awards/all-nba-team

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:10 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
This stuff is simply becoming too easy for the kid.

Leonard best player in 2013-2014 Ok.
https://www.nba.com/history/awards/all-nba-team

It still amuses me that you base everything on All NBA teams except when you don't(Kyrie, John Wall, etc).

Leonard led the team in Win Shares and and BPM that year. He led the team in almost every advanced metric in the postseason and Finals. He came on really strong in the second half and by the time the playoffs came it was clear he was their best player. In the Finals he did a particularly good job defending LeBron who was in his absolute prime at the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Historically Bad!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:13 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Posted this reply in another thread but essentially the best way to win is to tank.

This gets disproven every time it's brought up. The five best teams in the NBA right now are GS, SA, Houston, Boston, and Cleveland, and none of them were put together through tanking.

Not to mention that the Sixers situation was the product of a GM who fleeced other teams left and right and a whole lot of luck. The Bulls are clearly lacking in the former, so now have to hope they're even luckier than Philly was. This doesn't even get into the coaching and morale issues that tanking inevitably creates and that the Bulls will never address because Reinsdorf hates the idea of paying 2 coaches at one time.

Yup. It's all a problem.



Ok when they become a good team again people will comment about how they hate tanking. Philly became good because they tanked.

Philly is good because they have a healthy Ben Simmons. And also, they are your only example of success coming from tanking, and they haven't even had much success yet. I just gave you five examples of better teams that rebut the 76ers model also.



Ben Simmons was the result of tanking and if you'd watched much Sixer ball as I did last season you'd have known that they were rapidly improving with Embiid (another result of tanking) leading the way. Before he got injured they were playing well.

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