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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:40 am 
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IMU wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
long time guy wrote:


Are they also going to slash ticket prices?

Were you going to see Holiday, Lopez and Grant?


Certainly not...but I thought Paxson was intimating that Dunn, LaVine and Markkanen wouldn't be playing as much either. Maybe I misunderstood.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:42 am 
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long time guy wrote:
storkinastorm wrote:
The Bulls didn’t tank for Jordan. They got lucky. Thorn didn’t even want him.


Bulls first benched then traded their best player in order to improve their draft position.

21-28 pre Theus trade.

6-27 post Theus trade.

5 game win streak prior to trade. Traded him for a backup journeyman Center. Benched in early Dec. Bulls best player. Started unproven Rookie backcourt in front of him.

I remember it vividly. Tank all the way in order to improve draft position


they didn't trade Rush Street Reggie to tank. He ran afoul of the coach and management was eventually forced to unload him for peanuts. it worked out but Thorn was no genius GM.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:50 am 
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City of Fools wrote:
long time guy wrote:
storkinastorm wrote:
The Bulls didn’t tank for Jordan. They got lucky. Thorn didn’t even want him.


Bulls first benched then traded their best player in order to improve their draft position.

21-28 pre Theus trade.

6-27 post Theus trade.

5 game win streak prior to trade. Traded him for a backup journeyman Center. Benched in early Dec. Bulls best player. Started unproven Rookie backcourt in front of him.

I remember it vividly. Tank all the way in order to improve draft position


they didn't trade Rush Street Reggie to tank. He ran afoul of the coach and management was eventually forced to unload him for peanuts. it worked out but Thorn was no genius GM.



The Bulls benched Theus long before he was traded. They started two rookies in Dec. until the time he was traded. No team is ever going to call tanking tanking. They don't want to piss off the paying customers.

Is GarPax calling it tanking right now? No. Did Philly call it tanking then? No. Its obvious that both were and are tanking though.

You don't bench your best player which Theus happened to be at the time. Especially for two rookies. You don't trade him 15 minutes before the close of the deadline and get nothing (Steve Johnson) for him.

You especially don't do it while still in the hunt and coming of a winning streak.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:55 am 
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St. Louis Bull Man wrote:
Tanking guarantees NOTHING, except fostering a losing mentality and fans losing interest. IT'S FUCKING BULLSHIT.

This guy gets it. Tanking is for cowards and losers.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:01 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
St. Louis Bull Man wrote:
Tanking guarantees NOTHING, except fostering a losing mentality and fans losing interest. IT'S FUCKING BULLSHIT.

This guy gets it. Tanking is for cowards and losers.


I'm glad that the "competitive" spirit angle was played. Roster engineering (Which James and Durant both have used) is much more cowardly than tanking. Tanking is for teams that have no shot anyway.

Guys that seek to play on the best rosters all the time are much more of a problem yet few seem to have a problem with it.

Fact remains that you don't win without talent and the best talent overwhelmingly is found in top 5 picks.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:13 pm 
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list of teams that have in theory "gone for it" over the 35 or so years. Lets check out their success.


Your Atlanta Hawks

https://www.basketball-reference.com/te ... draft.html

Charlotte Hornets. (Only time they've been good was when they had high draft picks)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/te ... draft.html


https://www.basketball-reference.com/te ... draft.html


https://www.basketball-reference.com/te ... draft.html


Some of these years the draft classes were weak so it didn't matter where a team drafted there wasn't going to be much impact.

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Last edited by long time guy on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:17 pm 
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first thing I notice is 6 top 6 picks over 8 year stretch in early 2000s.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
first thing I notice is 6 top 6 picks over 8 year stretch in early 2000s.



I'm looking moreso for top 3 top 5 at least. Your franchise type guys are typically found in the top 3-5 range.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:30 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
St. Louis Bull Man wrote:
Tanking guarantees NOTHING, except fostering a losing mentality and fans losing interest. IT'S FUCKING BULLSHIT.

This guy gets it. Tanking is for cowards and losers.


I'm glad that the "competitive" spirit angle was played. Roster engineering (Which James and Durant both have used) is much more cowardly than tanking. Tanking is for teams that have no shot anyway.

Guys that seek to play on the best rosters all the time are much more of a problem yet few seem to have a problem with it.


I dont think you have paid much attention then if you believe that. Both Durant and Lebron have faced heavy criticism for that.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:35 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
long time guy wrote:
storkinastorm wrote:
The Bulls didn’t tank for Jordan. They got lucky. Thorn didn’t even want him.


Bulls first benched then traded their best player in order to improve their draft position.

21-28 pre Theus trade.

6-27 post Theus trade.

5 game win streak prior to trade. Traded him for a backup journeyman Center. Benched in early Dec. Bulls best player. Started unproven Rookie backcourt in front of him.

I remember it vividly. Tank all the way in order to improve draft position


they didn't trade Rush Street Reggie to tank. He ran afoul of the coach and management was eventually forced to unload him for peanuts. it worked out but Thorn was no genius GM.



The Bulls benched Theus long before he was traded. They started two rookies in Dec. until the time he was traded. No team is ever going to call tanking tanking. They don't want to piss off the paying customers.

Is GarPax calling it tanking right now? No. Did Philly call it tanking then? No. Its obvious that both were and are tanking though.

You don't bench your best player which Theus happened to be at the time. Especially for two rookies. You don't trade him 15 minutes before the close of the deadline and get nothing (Steve Johnson) for him.

You especially don't do it while still in the hunt and coming of a winning streak.


Theus was benched by Murph (not that Murph) because he didn't get along with him. The Bulls front office did not intend to have to trade him at the start the season. This is well known.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:05 pm 
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LTG, do you consider the Golden State Warriors(Pre-Durant) a product of a "pure tanking" strategy?


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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:13 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
LTG, do you consider the Golden State Warriors(Pre-Durant) a product of a "pure tanking" strategy?


Definitely not but they are an anomaly in terms of being able to win without high draft picks. If you the history of the league your NBA champions were led by guys that were high (top 5) picks.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:15 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
LTG, do you consider the Golden State Warriors(Pre-Durant) a product of a "pure tanking" strategy?


Definitely not but they are an anomaly in terms of being able to win without high draft picks. If you the history of the league your NBA champions were led by guys that were high picks.


Yes, but those teams did not acquire those players via tanking.


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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:18 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
LTG, do you consider the Golden State Warriors(Pre-Durant) a product of a "pure tanking" strategy?


Definitely not but they are an anomaly in terms of being able to win without high draft picks. If you the history of the league your NBA champions were led by guys that were high picks.


Yes, but those teams did not acquire those high draft picks via tanking.



Tanking is a subjective argument as i keep trying to state. No team ever flat out says they are tanking.

Which teams have won championships with a best player that was drafted outside of the top 10? In that you find your answer to this entire situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:20 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
LTG, do you consider the Golden State Warriors(Pre-Durant) a product of a "pure tanking" strategy?


Definitely not but they are an anomaly in terms of being able to win without high draft picks. If you the history of the league your NBA champions were led by guys that were high picks.


Yes, but those teams did not acquire those high draft picks via tanking.



Tanking is a subjective argument as i keep trying to state. No team ever flat out says they are tanking.

Which teams have won championships where there best player was drafted outside of the top 10? In that you find your answer to this entire situation.


Yes, you generally need a player or two of that caliber to win a title. But you still haven't proven you need to tank for that. You can get those players via free agency or savy trades.


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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:21 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
LTG, do you consider the Golden State Warriors(Pre-Durant) a product of a "pure tanking" strategy?


Definitely not but they are an anomaly in terms of being able to win without high draft picks. If you the history of the league your NBA champions were led by guys that were high picks.


Yes, but those teams did not acquire those high draft picks via tanking.



Tanking is a subjective argument as i keep trying to state. No team ever flat out says they are tanking.

Which teams have won championships where there best player was drafted outside of the top 10? In that you find your answer to this entire situation.

no, the question is, what teams have won championships where the championships were attributeably accomplished by at some point losing on purpose, stated or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:23 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
LTG, do you consider the Golden State Warriors(Pre-Durant) a product of a "pure tanking" strategy?


Definitely not but they are an anomaly in terms of being able to win without high draft picks. If you the history of the league your NBA champions were led by guys that were high picks.


Yes, but those teams did not acquire those high draft picks via tanking.



Tanking is a subjective argument as i keep trying to state. No team ever flat out says they are tanking.

Which teams have won championships where there best player was drafted outside of the top 10? In that you find your answer to this entire situation.


Yes, you generally need a player or two of that caliber to win a title. But you still haven't proven you need to tank for that. You can get those players via free agency or savy trades.


Free agency and savvy trades. Sounds right up GarPax's alley.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:24 pm 
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City of Fools wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
LTG, do you consider the Golden State Warriors(Pre-Durant) a product of a "pure tanking" strategy?


Definitely not but they are an anomaly in terms of being able to win without high draft picks. If you the history of the league your NBA champions were led by guys that were high picks.


Yes, but those teams did not acquire those high draft picks via tanking.



Tanking is a subjective argument as i keep trying to state. No team ever flat out says they are tanking.

Which teams have won championships where there best player was drafted outside of the top 10? In that you find your answer to this entire situation.

no, the question is, what teams have won championships where the championships were attributeably accomplished by at some point losing on purpose, stated or not.



You will never find a situation or very few where the stated purpose is to" lose on purpose". If you can find it let me know. Not writers either. Organizations.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
LTG, do you consider the Golden State Warriors(Pre-Durant) a product of a "pure tanking" strategy?


Definitely not but they are an anomaly in terms of being able to win without high draft picks. If you the history of the league your NBA champions were led by guys that were high picks.


Yes, but those teams did not acquire those high draft picks via tanking.



Tanking is a subjective argument as i keep trying to state. No team ever flat out says they are tanking.

Which teams have won championships where there best player was drafted outside of the top 10? In that you find your answer to this entire situation.


Yes, you generally need a player or two of that caliber to win a title. But you still haven't proven you need to tank for that. You can get those players via free agency or savy trades.


The trajectory of the Bulls franchise changed because they tanked.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:27 pm 
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The reality is, Tanking is a strategy that sometimes works, and sometimes doesn't. There are so many variables to putting a team together that can actually win one. Most of it is luck. Luck that when you do have a lottery pick it won't be a shit draft. Luck that when you have the cap space, there will be a FA worth a shit that wants to sign with you. Luck that you don't find yourself against a dominant superstar of that era that blocks your path to a title.

If you are stuck in mediocrity, it's probably a good idea to sell assets and get draft picks. But repeated seasons of tanking(what the 76ers tried doing) is not a proven strategy, at all. This isn't baseball where suck for 3 years, get a top farm system and you contend. There is no roadmap like that in the NBA.


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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Houston Rockets tanked in order to draft Akeem also.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:29 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Houston Rockets tanked in order to draft Akeem also.


They are lucky Jordan played baseball for two years, or they would have never won a title. In fact the two they have are not even real gold. It's gold spray paint.


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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:31 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
The reality is, Tanking is a strategy that sometimes works, and sometimes doesn't. There are so many variables to putting a team together that can actually win one. Most of it is luck. Luck that when you do have a lottery pick it won't be a shit draft. Luck that when you have the cap space, there will be a FA worth a shit that wants to sign with you. Luck that you don't find yourself against a dominant superstar of that era that blocks your path to a title.

If you are stuck in mediocrity, it's probably a good idea to sell assets and get draft picks. But repeated seasons of tanking(what the 76ers tried doing) is not a proven strategy, at all. This isn't baseball where suck for 3 years, get a top farm system and you contend. There is no roadmap like that in the NBA.



I love how people have deemed the Philly strategy a failure. The same people that professed patience with Thibs and Minnesota for the past 2 years are now jumping in to state how this is a failure after what? 40 games.

This is the first year that they have had the core guys and they are missing Fultz. Look at their record particularly when Embiid plays. Look at it when he plays 30 or more minutes those two variables and they are +15 at least in the win column.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:33 pm 
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long time guy wrote:

I love how people have deemed the Philly strategy a failure..


It's no worse than you, up on your soapbox, pointing to the 7th seeded 76ers, screaming "See that's how you do it folks!"


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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:36 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Houston Rockets tanked in order to draft Akeem also.

but that didn't work...Sampson ended up shuffling off. Robert Reid, Black Magic, etc went out the door. It was a completely different iteration that won championships.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:38 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
long time guy wrote:

I love how people have deemed the Philly strategy a failure..


It's no worse than you, up on your soapbox, pointing to the 7th seeded 76ers, screaming "See that's how you do it folks!"



They won't finish the season 7th and the only reason they are 7th is injury and minutes restrictions. Nothing to do with tanking. They will be contenders barring injury going forward.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:40 pm 
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City of Fools wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Houston Rockets tanked in order to draft Akeem also.

but that didn't work...Sampson ended up shuffling off. Robert Reid, Black Magic, etc went out the door. It was a completely different iteration that won championships.



They eventually won though.

How many teams have won with a player drafted outside of 10 besides Lakers and Kobe?

How many teams have ever admitted to tanking?

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:40 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
long time guy wrote:

I love how people have deemed the Philly strategy a failure..


It's no worse than you, up on your soapbox, pointing to the 7th seeded 76ers, screaming "See that's how you do it folks!"



They won't finish the season 7th and the only reason they are 7th is injury and minutes restrictions. Nothing to do with tanking. They will be contenders barring injury going forward.


Sucks they are the only team in the league battling injury issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:42 pm 
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City of Fools wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Houston Rockets tanked in order to draft Akeem also.

but that didn't work...Sampson ended up shuffling off. Robert Reid, Black Magic, etc went out the door. It was a completely different iteration that won championships.

They made a finals with that incarnation. Sampson really just flopped because of the injuries, but I wouldn't call that 80's Rockets run a failure.

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 Post subject: Re: Tanking: It Works
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:43 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
long time guy wrote:

I love how people have deemed the Philly strategy a failure..


It's no worse than you, up on your soapbox, pointing to the 7th seeded 76ers, screaming "See that's how you do it folks!"



They won't finish the season 7th and the only reason they are 7th is injury and minutes restrictions. Nothing to do with tanking. They will be contenders barring injury going forward.


Sucks they are the only team in the league battling injury issues.



Nah. Won't work. Embiid missed back to backs and was on a minutes restriction. Fultz hasn't played this year save for few games.

The Philly thing is nowhere near a failure.

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