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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:41 pm 
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As of tomorrow morning, the Bulls would be drafting at #7. Robin Lopez and Justin Holiday combined for 36 points (30% of Bulls total points) against the Knicks. Both players have team-friendly contracts and can be nice contributors on a contending team. Pax and Gar have to pull the trigger immediately and then do the same with Niko in 5 days.

It's unacceptable if the Bulls don't draft in the top 5 this summer. I don't know if the 2018 class is as good as the 2003 class but I don't want to take any chances. I don't want to see a LeBron, Carmelo, Bosh, and Wade selected before us and being stuck taking a Kirk Hinrich level player at #7 like the Bulls did in 2003.

Bagley is being compared to Bosh, Ayton to David Robinson and Patrick Ewing, Trae Young to Steph Curry, Porter to Kevin Durant, and Doncic to Ginobli.

You literally double your odds at getting the first pick if you move from the 7th worse record to the 5th worse. Ideally, the Bulls move further up and increase they're odds even more. Don't fuck this up GarPax.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:51 pm 
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I am with you. Love see Markk and Dunn progress and do good things. But they gotta get in the top 5. Get this tank back on track. Get rid of anyone and everyone not named Markk, Dunn, and Lavine.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:22 am 
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Mods please delete.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:14 am 
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They're not meaningless when the team is building confidence. They're fun to watch too.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:27 am 
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IkeSouth wrote:
They're not meaningless when the team is building confidence. They're fun to watch too.


This front office cant even tank properly.... sounds like some are happy with 4-5 years of try hard bulls #4-#6 seed teams that have no shot at winning a title... ala KC Johnson's beloved Hinrich/gordon teams from 10-15 years ago.

You have a chance to obtain elite talent in what is expected to be a generational draft... and your team is winning games they arent supposed to. It's basically the equivalent of the bears winning late season games so they can finish 8-8... nobody remembers the win even 2 days after it occurs, but the ripple effects of dropping down in the draft impact the team for years to come


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:32 am 
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I wish Markkanen would stop dropping 30 and 10 so we could draft higher.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:12 am 
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I don't know who is comparing Porter to Durant but they need their scouting license revoked.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:43 am 
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only 6.5 back of the 8 seed


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:47 am 
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East weak, like Ukraine; Bulls are a trade away from losing in the first round of the playoffs. Betting the Bulls ML back in December was easy money. Been difficult not to give it back betting same this month.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
I don't know who is comparing Porter to Durant but they need their scouting license revoked.


Probably he same people that called Harold Miner "Baby Jordan"

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:07 pm 
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I just don't see a route to a bottom 5 finish. They aren't that bad, even without Mirotic, Lopez, and Holiday(the last two of those guys suck anyway).

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:12 pm 
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They'll slide back with trades. Hoiball has potential.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:14 pm 
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Nas wrote:
They'll slide back with trades. Hoiball has potential.

They’re playing too hard and guys like Dunn and Markkanen are too good relative to preseason expectations. It’s not happening.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:47 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
They'll slide back with trades. Hoiball has potential.

They’re playing too hard and guys like Dunn and Markkanen are too good relative to preseason expectations. It’s not happening.



and Lavine is coming back

or i guess that could make them lose more who knows


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:13 pm 
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The chemistry will be funky for a week or so when LaVine comes back Saturday, which is good news. Hopefully, he's on a 20 minute limit for a while.

Sounds like Niko will be traded early next week. We expect Utah, Detroit, New York, etc. will be sending in their best offers by the end of the weekend.

The Bulls can lose most of their remaining games with Dunn and Lauri still playing hard! This can still be a fun and entertaining rest of the season. But...you can't have guys like Lopez and Holiday combining for 30 or so points in a game like they did last night. You have to trade both and throw out Felicio and Grant on the court.

There's a big dropoff in talent after the top 5. It's a lot like 2003. It would be pretty shitty to finish with 1 or 2 more wins than teams like the Suns, Mavs (we beat them in a very close game last month, much like last night), Lakers, or Magic. One or two more losses can mean double the odds of getting the #1 pick. Do we know the Cavs have Brooklyn's #1 pick in the draft? The Bulls have the exact same record as Brooklyn at the moment. If Brooklyn finishes with a couple more losses than the Bulls and Cleveland ends up picking a spot or two ahead of us, whether or not LeBron leaves, Cleveland ends up drafting a young potential superstar.

The plan should be to trade Niko (sounds like this will happen immediately), and also trade Lopez and Holiday (who combine on average 26 points a game). You then land in the top 5 as far as lottery position goes. Draft one of either Bagley, Alton, Young, Porter, or Doncic. Your 2018-2019 core is one of the highly touted rookies + Lauri, LaVine, and Dunn. You ride those guys next season and see what's good with Hoiball. I would think they make the playoffs as a mid/bottom tier seed. We'll see what they do. Then, the Bulls have a ton of cash to spend in free agency in the summer of 2019.

What if things go wrong/awry in Boston and Kyrie decides to decline his player option? He expressed interest in the Bulls this past summer. If he came here, he'd instantly run the show, just like he's doing in Boston. But maybe the Bulls have better pieces than Boston by 2019 to compete in the East (Al Horford is too damn old and slow to be making $30 million a year). Klay Thompson will be an unrestricted free agent. I think he's the most underrated player in the NBA. He's shot over 40% from the 3 point line every damn season he's been in the Association. Can the Warriors afford to keep repeating the steep luxury tax penalties? Probably not. And maybe Klay wants to do his own thing much like Kyrie? It's crazy to think Jimmy Butler would want to come back. But he does have a player option in the 2019 summer. Doesn't playing for Thibs get old? He's good friends with Kyrie. What if they both decided to come to Chicago to rule the east? Kyrie, LaVine, Jimmy, Lauri, and Ayton. Think about that.

Kawhi Leonard has the opportunity to decline his player option that summer as well. I hear he's pretty good.

The NBA can be crazy at times. I'd bet on Anthony Davis (player option in 2020) demanding a trade somewhere else (this summer or the following).


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Do players the Spurs wanna keep ever leave on their own? Absent some financial limit, I suppose.

Plus, Kawhi's not Kawhi if he's drafted by any team but the Spurs. Dunno if/to what extent Leonard recognizes or cares about that;, but when he came into the league his ceiling was more Ron Artest or Tony Allen than top 3 in MVP voting for both his offense and defense, year in, year out.

I suppose in the current, player-centric NBA it's possible Kawhi walks if the Spurs fall off of being perennial contenders and maybe the East looks like an easier path to the Finals.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:13 pm 
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I just don't think intentionally tanking gives you the best path to a title.

I get that this is the best draft class in years or whatever... But again, it's not a lock by any means. If you tank the season it's a lock to be bad for a few more years, that is definitely for sure.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:29 pm 
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Hussra wrote:
Do players the Spurs wanna keep ever leave on their own? Absent some financial limit, I suppose.

Plus, Kawhi's not Kawhi if he's drafted by any team but the Spurs. Dunno if/to what extent Leonard recognizes or cares about that;, but when he came into the league his ceiling was more Ron Artest or Tony Allen than top 3 in MVP voting for both his offense and defense, year in, year out.

I suppose in the current, player-centric NBA it's possible Kawhi walks if the Spurs fall off of being perennial contenders and maybe the East looks like an easier path to the Finals.

Yeah, Kawhi’s not going anywhere.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:47 pm 
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IkeSouth wrote:
If you tank the season it's a lock to be bad for a few more years, that is definitely for sure.


I don't understand this thought. My definition of the Bulls tanking, and I think it's your definition as well -- is trading Niko (which will happen Monday or Tuesday according to a lot of people) and also trading Justin Holiday + Robin Lopez soon after.

Doing this most likely results in the Bulls getting a top 5 pick, which means they draft a very good player and add him to the LaVine, Lauri, and Dunn core. I guarantee those 4 players along with the rest of the 2018-2019 roster win more games than this years team.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:54 pm 
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Ron Wolfley wrote:
IkeSouth wrote:
If you tank the season it's a lock to be bad for a few more years, that is definitely for sure.


I don't understand this thought. My definition of the Bulls tanking, and I think it's your definition as well -- is trading Niko (which will happen Monday or Tuesday according to a lot of people) and also trading Justin Holiday + Robin Lopez soon after.

Doing this most likely results in the Bulls getting a top 5 pick

Couldn't disagree more.

Niko is gone for sure, and they will be worse without him, but LaVine coming back makes up for that. But Lopez and Holiday are terrible. Yeah, both can score a little, but neither does it efficiently and both of them are very bad at basically every other facet of the game. I don't think losing them results in being worse.

Outside of benching Dunn and Markkanen for 80% of the remaining games, I don't really see a path to under 30 wins.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:00 pm 
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who in their right mind would want Holliday? that guy is terrible.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
who in their right mind would want Holliday? that guy is terrible.

:lol:

Right.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:13 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Ron Wolfley wrote:
IkeSouth wrote:
If you tank the season it's a lock to be bad for a few more years, that is definitely for sure.


I don't understand this thought. My definition of the Bulls tanking, and I think it's your definition as well -- is trading Niko (which will happen Monday or Tuesday according to a lot of people) and also trading Justin Holiday + Robin Lopez soon after.

Doing this most likely results in the Bulls getting a top 5 pick

Couldn't disagree more.

Niko is gone for sure, and they will be worse without him, but LaVine coming back makes up for that. But Lopez and Holiday are terrible. Yeah, both can score a little, but neither does it efficiently and both of them are very bad at basically every other facet of the game. I don't think losing them results in being worse.


Outside of benching Dunn and Markkanen for 80% of the remaining games, I don't really see a path to under 30 wins.


The past 5 games -- Lopez and Holiday have combined for 38 points, 35, 16, 13, 36. You don't think Felicio and Grant are worse players? There's a reason why they don't see a lot of playing time. Losing both Lopez and Holiday results in them being worse. They'll absolutely lose a few more games if they trade both. Even if you have more doubt than belief, isn't it worth it to pull the trigger? Holiday is going to make much more money after next season than what he's being paid now. And Robin Lopez is not your starting C on a championship team. What do they have to lose by trading these 2 guys for younger talent and/or draft picks PLUS the potential opportunity to draft one of these 5 guys in this 2018 draft?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:16 pm 
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Ron Wolfley wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Ron Wolfley wrote:
IkeSouth wrote:
If you tank the season it's a lock to be bad for a few more years, that is definitely for sure.


I don't understand this thought. My definition of the Bulls tanking, and I think it's your definition as well -- is trading Niko (which will happen Monday or Tuesday according to a lot of people) and also trading Justin Holiday + Robin Lopez soon after.

Doing this most likely results in the Bulls getting a top 5 pick

Couldn't disagree more.

Niko is gone for sure, and they will be worse without him, but LaVine coming back makes up for that. But Lopez and Holiday are terrible. Yeah, both can score a little, but neither does it efficiently and both of them are very bad at basically every other facet of the game. I don't think losing them results in being worse.


Outside of benching Dunn and Markkanen for 80% of the remaining games, I don't really see a path to under 30 wins.


The past 5 games -- Lopez and Holiday have combined for 38 points, 35, 16, 13, 36. You don't think Felicio and Grant are worse players? There's a reason why they don't see a lot of playing time. Losing both Lopez and Holiday results in them being worse. They'll absolutely lose a few more games if they trade both. Even if you have more doubt than belief, isn't it worth it to pull the trigger? Holiday is going to make much more money after next season than what he's being paid now. And Robin Lopez is not your starting C on a championship team. What do they have to lose by trading these 2 guys for younger talent and/or draft picks PLUS the potential opportunity to draft one of these 5 guys in this 2018 draft?

Well like Hatchet said, who is giving you anything for those guys? No chance I would want Holiday on my team, and I damn sure wouldn't give up an asset to acquire him.

As to the bolded part, I would be curious how many points each guy gave up in those games as well, and I disagree with your premise regarding playing time. Hoiberg proved last year that he doesn't do a good job of playing the most talented players on a team.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:16 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
who in their right mind would want Holliday? that guy is terrible.


He comes off the bench and can score instantly. Won a championship with the Warriors a few years back.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:19 pm 
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Ron Wolfley wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
who in their right mind would want Holliday? that guy is terrible.


He comes off the bench and can score instantly. Won a championship with the Warriors a few years back.

He played 11 minutes a game and shot 38% that year :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:21 pm 
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Ron Wolfley wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
who in their right mind would want Holliday? that guy is terrible.


He comes off the bench and can score instantly. Won a championship with the Warriors a few years back.

So did Festus Ezeli. Let's sign him and then trade him too.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:24 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Ron Wolfley wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Ron Wolfley wrote:
IkeSouth wrote:
If you tank the season it's a lock to be bad for a few more years, that is definitely for sure.


I don't understand this thought. My definition of the Bulls tanking, and I think it's your definition as well -- is trading Niko (which will happen Monday or Tuesday according to a lot of people) and also trading Justin Holiday + Robin Lopez soon after.

Doing this most likely results in the Bulls getting a top 5 pick

Couldn't disagree more.

Niko is gone for sure, and they will be worse without him, but LaVine coming back makes up for that. But Lopez and Holiday are terrible. Yeah, both can score a little, but neither does it efficiently and both of them are very bad at basically every other facet of the game. I don't think losing them results in being worse.


Outside of benching Dunn and Markkanen for 80% of the remaining games, I don't really see a path to under 30 wins.


The past 5 games -- Lopez and Holiday have combined for 38 points, 35, 16, 13, 36. You don't think Felicio and Grant are worse players? There's a reason why they don't see a lot of playing time. Losing both Lopez and Holiday results in them being worse. They'll absolutely lose a few more games if they trade both. Even if you have more doubt than belief, isn't it worth it to pull the trigger? Holiday is going to make much more money after next season than what he's being paid now. And Robin Lopez is not your starting C on a championship team. What do they have to lose by trading these 2 guys for younger talent and/or draft picks PLUS the potential opportunity to draft one of these 5 guys in this 2018 draft?

Well like Hatchet said, who is giving you anything for those guys? No chance I would want Holiday on my team, and I damn sure wouldn't give up an asset to acquire him.

As to the bolded part, I would be curious how many points each guy gave up in those games as well, and I disagree with your premise regarding playing time. Hoiberg proved last year that he doesn't do a good job of playing the most talented players on a team.


Lopez is a pretty damn good rim protector. Holiday is not a great defender. But, do you think other players on the team should be given more minutes than Holiday and Lopez?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:26 pm 
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I think Lopez is a horrible defender and provides next to zero rim protection. I think Portis is already a better player and should definitely play more.

All our guards suck outside of Dunn so I don’t have a better option than Holiday, but I don’t think a guy like Grant is much worse. He’s certainly a lot smarter. With Lavine coming back Holiday should go back to a 15-18 mpg role though.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:30 pm 
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Grant is better than Holliday. Niko & Lauri might have been a fun pairing but I guess we’ll never find out.


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