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 Post subject: Jordan Steroid Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:08 pm 
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Since someone mentioned steroids I shamelessly stole this from somewhere else.

This thread exists to help facilitate mature and reasonable discussion on what is often a controversial issue. In the past decade questions have been raised from multiple sources about the legitimacy of Jordans physique. Did the ultra competitive Jordan use steroids, HGH or testosterone enhancement to get an advantage? Under the tight media control of David Stern the NBA avoided the performance enhancing drug scandals that plagued Major League Baseball, Football and even cycling; all the while maintaining the weakest testing policy in professional sports. Many people simply asked why the NBA was so scared to test their top athletes if they had nothing to hide, but these questions were ignored.

Now even though many sports heroes from the 1990's like Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire as well as current NBA players like Hedo Turkoglu have admitted to using steroids, that does not necessary mean Michael Jordan abused them as well. This is not a witch hunt, merely a discussion. In this thread we will provide evidence to help the posters reach their own conclusions as to whether Michael Jordan indeed used steroids to help him compete at the highest level.

Michael Jordan's Alleged Descent into Steroid Use:

Michael Jordan was always an elite athlete from his days at UNC and like many basketball players of the era like Dr J and Connie Hawkisn he possessed a strong but slim frame that was considered ideal for a basketball player:

Take notice of the normal sized head, full hairline, and slim arms.

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After a championship at UNC and college player of the year honors Michael Jordan dropped out of school to pursue a career in the NBA. He started off his first year very strongly, averaging 28.2 points and winning rookie of the year honors. Within three years he was the leading scorer in the NBA and averaging over 37 points per game. Billboards adorned his name, he received the first ultra lucrative show deal for his Air Jordan sponsorship and was one of the most recognizable basketball players in the world. Then, his career stalled.

Despite his high scoring and crowd pleasing dunks Michael Jordan was not a champion. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were in the finals almost every year and considered the #1 and #2 players by knowledgeable fans. This was a constant frustration to Jordan who wanted to be the best. As Bird and Johnson got older Michael Jordan (MJ) knew it was his chance to shine. Except one thing stood in his way: the toughest most physical team in the NBA, the Detroit Pistons.

NBA Champion Detroit Pistons

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Contrasting to Michael's "Me first" style the Pistons played the game the right way. They passed to the open man, hustled for loose balls, and played solid defense. But above all else they were physically the strongest team in league history. This made them the most dangerous team in the NBA and they won the Eastern Conference almost every year and two Championships. Their biggest strength was also Michael's greatest enemy, a passing and scoring wizard named Isiah Thomas.

NBA's two top guards show mutual respect before a playoff game

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Isiah Thomas hated Jordan's selfish style of play. When Jordan was a rookie Isiah tried to impress the need for team play on the ball hogging young Jordan by passing to the other All Stars. This infuriated Jordan who swore revenge in the post season. However every year in the play offs the Pistons proved too strong for the Bulls to overcome. High flying basketball may win games in the regular season but playoff basketball in the 80's was known for strength and physical play. After years of losing, Jordan enlisted the help of controversial trainer Tim Grover in 1989 who immediately told Jordan he needed to bulk up if he wanted to survive a series with the Pistons. Jordan listened.

Secretive Athletic Trainer and Founder of "Attack Athletics" Tim Grover

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This is when we believe Jordan was introduced to steroids. As he said to Sports Illustrated that summer:

Michael Jordan posted:
Some people want it to happen, some wish it would happen, others make it happen

Jordan "made it happen" and worked out extremely hard that off season. Hitting the weights everyday, guided by Tim Grover and boosted by his new cocktail of performance enhancing drugs. He entered the season much bulkier, looking more like a power forward than a perimeter player. It's then we start seeing the first effects of steroid use: Hair loss.

Jordan experiencing rapid hair loss after first summer of alleged steroid use

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Fellow players were shocked when they saw Jordan who at 27 completely changed his body from the first 26 years of his life. Some claim this was just from a new training regiment while others feel this is the most stunning proof of performance enhancement. Whatever Jordan did worked, and his new strength made him impossible to defend. Combined with the emergence of the Chicago Bulls role players Jordan won three straight tainted championships from 91-93. However, steroids were slowly changing Jordan as a person. He began fighting with team mates, saying profanities on the basketball court in front of young fans and developed a crippling gambling addiction that likely stemmed from the same addictive personality disorder that led him to steroid abuse. This is known in gym circles as typical "roid rage" and was documented in the best selling novel, The Jordan Rules.

Then came the next chapter of his life, he suddenly retired and played baseball. This also put him into one of the most steroid infused club houses in professional sports, the Chicago White Sox farm system.

Jordan batting .202 for the Birmingham Barons during the hayday of Baseball's steroid era

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It was here that the student became the teacher. Surrounded by minor league players who were desperate to succeed, Jordan introduced them to Tim Grover's advanced steroid cycles. Players like Chris Snopek, Matt Karchner, Steve Gajkowski, Chris Tremie, Doug Brady and Larry Thomas all took Jordan's lessons seriously and were able to make it to the Major Leagues a few years later. Karchner in particular became Jordan's apostle for many years, spreading steroid secrets to the Chicago Cubs. Having a crisis of conscience he later exposed steroids in the locker room, though he protected Jordan

quote:
He also told baseball investigator George J. Mitchell that one of the players had injected the steroids into the other player's buttocks, and then injected them into his own body. Karchner would not identify the players. He also declined to identify the names of Cubs teammates whom he said had offered him steroids.

Unable to make it in the majors and two years removed from making an NBA income, Jordan decided to return to the NBA for one last run.

Now bald and noticeably bulkier Michael Jordan upon returning to the NBA in 1996

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Jordan returned for the end of the 1995 season and realized his team had changed. They were still good, but they weren't strong enough to win a championship. They were eliminated in the playoffs and that summer Jordan vowed to not let it happen again. For the first time he was going to reveal his training secrets to two select teammates: Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman.

ImageImage
Pippen and Rodman were two very thin but very active and athletic players prior to the 1996 season. Notice their physiques prior to training with Michael Jordan


Jordan had one rule for his two young disciples: Win at all costs. He had seen how his training had turned mediocre minor league players into legitimate MLB starters and he knew if he used it on players as talented as Pippen and Rodman they would be unstoppable. Training began that summer and in 1996 Jordan had two super star teammates with bodies that were now cut from steroid infused granite.

Noticeably more muscular Rodman and Pippen

ImageImage
And so began the NBA Bulls 72-10 NBA Championship season. After winning three more championships Jordan retired for a second time. But Pippen and Rodman were both different people. Under the influence of steroids Pippen would instigate fights and became so self centered and narcissistic that he wouldn't even tip his waiters, becoming known as "no tippin Pippen". Rodman was in countless fights with Karl Malone and even kicked an innocent cameraman during a game. Jordan won his second threepeat but at what cost?

I wish this was the end of the story, but there is one more chapter in MJ's cycle of steroid abuse: The Washington Wizards

An older MJ showing puffy muscle definition caused by retained water after a heavy steroid cycle

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Jordan needed a training partner to prepare for the season and was introduced to Ron Artest. Ron at the time was a young rookie who wasn't even old enough to legally drink. But he was tough and provided the enthusiasm Jordan required. Sadly, Jordan's influence rubbed off on Artest.

Ron Artest as a young rookie

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Ron Artest after training with Michael Jordan

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Ron Artest wasn't mentally prepared for the heavy cycles Jordan introduced him to. This backfired in a way MJ never expected when in a fit of roid rage Ron Artest broke two of Jordan's ribs. Artest later went on to attack a fan during a basketball game in an event known as "Malice in the Palace". That's the risk with introducing steroid to a young person, you never know how they are going to react.

During his time with the Wizards only one player resisted Jordan's controversial methods, a young #1 pick named Kwame Brown. This infuriated Jordan to the point he would use sexually explicit and degrading language towards the 18 year old Brown causing psychological damage that prevented him from becoming the Next Garnett he was projected to be. Eventually even steroids were not enough to keep MJ's game effective at an NBA level. His shooting percentage was falling to almost below .400 and he had to beg Vince Carter to let him start in his last all star game. He was clearly finished. And after failing to make the playoffs for two straight seasons Michael Jordan retired for good, leaving behind a tainted legacy.

Conclusion: Remember this thread is for mature discussion. If anyone has additional evidence of Jordan using steroids or first or second hand accounts please post them in this thread. The sanctity of the game is paramount. Even though many of us idolized Jordan as naive youths, we owe it to the future generations to know the truth about the player sometimes referred to as the greatest of all time.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:14 pm 
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tldr


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:15 pm 
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What do we think Tim Grover did, help him stretch?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:23 pm 
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Mods delete.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:26 pm 
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Probably. Frank and Maddux only two Chicago (or Atlanta) athletes who were definitely clean.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:17 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Probably. Frank and Maddux only two Chicago (or Atlanta) athletes who were definitely clean.

THAT BEING SAID..can we debunk the notion that Maddux was a soft tosser. He repeatedly hit upper 90s in his prime


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:18 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Probably. Frank and Maddux only two Chicago (or Atlanta) athletes who were definitely clean.

THAT BEING SAID..can we debunk the notion that Maddux was a soft tosser. He repeatedly hit upper 90s in his prime



Are you out of your fucking mind? Maddux never hit upper 90s.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:24 pm 
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Mid 90s, he was capable of. Though he didn't need to hit that high due to his ability to change speeds.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:30 pm 
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:lol: I guess we now see how historically wrong legends get started. Maddux brought as much heat as Randy Johnson I tell ya!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:33 pm 
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Most I recall him throwing was 92, 93 during the first cubs stint.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:35 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Probably. Frank and Maddux only two Chicago (or Atlanta) athletes who were definitely clean.

I don't think Ed Walsh was on anything in the 1900s.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:36 pm 
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Maybe it was just Big Frank bullying people to agree with him, but the White Sox were the most vocally anti-steroid team in the early 90s. They protested one of the tests (by not taking it, which is interesting) because they thought it was worthless. Maybe the organization was different, but the Sox were pretty pissed about this.

Maybe I remembered this wrong.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:40 pm 
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tommy wrote:
Maybe it was just Big Frank bullying people to agree with him, but the White Sox were the most vocally anti-steroid team in the early 90s. They protested one of the tests (by not taking it, which is interesting) because they thought it was worthless. Maybe the organization was different, but the Sox were pretty pissed about this.

Maybe I remembered this wrong.

If I recall right, a group of them wanted to protest the test by having the whole team not take it which would have caused a high enough number of "failures" to enact some other mandatory testing type things, but they were talked out of it by people who thought this method of escalation was probably a bad plan of attack and would weaken the MLBPAs power for future negotiations.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:44 pm 
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That Michael Jordan is so phony!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:45 pm 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Probably. Frank and Maddux only two Chicago (or Atlanta) athletes who were definitely clean.

THAT BEING SAID..can we debunk the notion that Maddux was a soft tosser. He repeatedly hit upper 90s in his prime

By the way this is the dumbest thing I read today.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:07 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Probably. Frank and Maddux only two Chicago (or Atlanta) athletes who were definitely clean.

THAT BEING SAID..can we debunk the notion that Maddux was a soft tosser. He repeatedly hit upper 90s in his prime

By the way this is the dumbest thing I read today.


I remembered it as he could touch 94-95 (prime) but it was flat. All his action came in the low 90s so dialing it up would hurt him.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:11 pm 
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TurdFerguson wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Probably. Frank and Maddux only two Chicago (or Atlanta) athletes who were definitely clean.

THAT BEING SAID..can we debunk the notion that Maddux was a soft tosser. He repeatedly hit upper 90s in his prime

By the way this is the dumbest thing I read today.


I remembered it as he could touch 94-95 (prime) but it was flat. All his action came in the low 90s so dialing it up would hurt him.


A quick google shows a bad memory. 93 was peak fastball and 90-91 in his prime.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:16 pm 
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Could be. But noting hair loss and weight gain is also a hallmark of late 20s early 30s for most of us.

And despite the photos, Pippen, Jordan and Rodman never struck me as particularly big guys. Muscled and well defined, but not really noticably big guys. Hell I remember being amazed at how thin and short Rodman was in person.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:17 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Could be. But noting hair loss and weight gain is also a hallmark of late 20s early 30s for most of us.

And despite the photos, Pippen, Jordan and Rodman never struck me as particularly big guys. Muscled and well defined, but not really noticably big guys. Hell I remember being amazed at how thin and short Rodman was in person.

That's just cause you're all beefcake.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:19 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Could be. But noting hair loss and weight gain is also a hallmark of late 20s early 30s for most of us.

And despite the photos, Pippen, Jordan and Rodman never struck me as particularly big guys. Muscled and well defined, but not really noticably big guys. Hell I remember being amazed at how thin and short Rodman was in person.

That's just cause you're all beefcake.


Not for years :cry: :cry:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:28 pm 
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who fucking cares, not like its MLB or anything.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:33 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Could be. But noting hair loss and weight gain is also a hallmark of late 20s early 30s for most of us.

And despite the photos, Pippen, Jordan and Rodman never struck me as particularly big guys. Muscled and well defined, but not really noticably big guys. Hell I remember being amazed at how thin and short Rodman was in person.

That's just cause you're all beefcake.


Not for years :cry: :cry:


For some of us the hair loss was late teens, early 20’s.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:36 pm 
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Steroids don't help basketball players except for post players.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:43 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Steroids don't help basketball players except for post players.

I think that's outdated. It may have been true in the 90s though. It's clearly not in the era of strong guards.

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Last edited by Brick on Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:51 pm 
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Why wouldn’t using steroids or other PEDs allow basketball players to train harder for increased endurance and stronger legs?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:16 pm 
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pittmike wrote:
Why wouldn’t using steroids or other PEDs allow basketball players to train harder for increased endurance and stronger legs?

I assume they would. Jordan looked much larger, but not McGwire-esque. Can you do roids without getting cartoonishly large and veiny?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:20 pm 
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tommy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Why wouldn’t using steroids or other PEDs allow basketball players to train harder for increased endurance and stronger legs?

I assume they would. Jordan looked much larger, but not McGwire-esque. Can you do roids without getting cartoonishly large and veiny?

I would guess it depends on how much you do?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:29 pm 
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newper wrote:
tommy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Why wouldn’t using steroids or other PEDs allow basketball players to train harder for increased endurance and stronger legs?

I assume they would. Jordan looked much larger, but not McGwire-esque. Can you do roids without getting cartoonishly large and veiny?

I would guess it depends on how much you do?

Yeah, probably. I wonder if athletes still take adderall or similar substances...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:15 pm 
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W_Z wrote:
That Michael Jordan is so phony!

:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:18 pm 
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Frank Thomas obviously did roids :lol:. White Sox fans are pathetic


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