Just asking.

_________________
favrefan said:"Chris Coghlan isn't gonna pay your rent, Jimmy."

Yes, by a comfortable margin.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

No doubt. They would have won a dozen or more games simply based on sound defense.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You

i think they would have made it, but would have lost round 1. this team is deeply flawed

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

we werent a flawed team though. everyone thought this was a powerhouse roster beginning of the year, and if we thought rose would play like he did we would have easily expected a finals appearance.

the fact that we missed the playoffs is an absolute joke. sure, dunleevee and noah out really hurt... but we still had enough for an easy entry into the playoffs.

we all speculated early in the season that hoiberg might not have control of this team, and that was SPOT on. furthermore, we even wondered what the hell kind of ball are we looking at in the PRESEASON... because it looked like shit. THAT WAS A SPOT ON ASSESSMENT.

but in all, with a talented group you should still win because players matter more than the coach. the fact that hoiberg wasnt respected is what killed this team. whatever he said or did, who knows... maybe it was just what thibs did and the players knew that guy CARED, even if they didnt care about him they respected his will to win and it was contagious. with hoiberg, it was the masters tournament and we all take home a hefty purse even if we place 15th.

the guy has got to go. this season was a complete embarrassment. DERRICK ROSE CAME BACK AND NOBODY FUCKING NOTICED BECAUSE THE TEAM HAD ZERO IDENTITY.

_________________
the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

Absolutely. Thibs got them to 50 wins last year. This team will have 42 if they win tomorrow. Thibs is absolutely 8 wins above Fred.

But they still would have lost to Cleveland or maybe even another team before they would have gotten to Cleveland.

yeah and remember when thibs had rose for a full year? 62 wins and an MVP.

_________________
the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

Of course. He could probably lead any team to the playoffs. Talent usually wins at that point.

_________________
Nas: Blago, who has single handedly destroyed CFMB?

Blago: https://youtube.com/shorts/Lftdxd-YXt8?feature=share


“We cannot turn away from this truth in this election, putting patriotism ahead of partisanship is not an aspiration —it is our duty.” -Liz Cheney

His value just went up this season, no?

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

I guess KC Johnson is voting!

_________________
"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

If you have a win now team (Cleveland), absolutely. If you are looking at the long-term, probably not.
His playing philosphy will have players break down over time. After all, Noah's gone this year and it is most likely a direct result of the last few years.

_________________

No shit, there. He was getting his shots in on Thibs the other day.

I'm not sure that's entirely fair. 7 footers with a history of feet problem don't last longer than Noah already has usually anyway.

But I'm also not sure Thibs value has increased. NBA folks probably view it similarly to Alvin Gentry and New Orleans, where it's clear that the new guy is just a terrible head coach.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

No I think this is still conceding too much to the front office's spin given the organization-wide dysfunction surrounding injuries. The Bulls medical staff screwed up on multiple occasions before Thibs got here and they did this year as well.

Your example of Noah is one such case since we know since he was cleared after the bare minimum amount of time for the sprained shoulder that would become the torn labrum. Rose was clearly still compromised by the eye injury to start the year, yet there was no hesitation throwing him out there. Likewise, Butler's second injury this year was the result of being rushed back too quickly from his first injury of the year. He's likewise continued to be among the league leaders in minutes per game for players' coach Hoiberg (down one whopping minute compared to Thibodeau), yet for some reason the work rate of the players hasn't been a talking point this year.

Honestly I think Minnesota is the best place for Thibodeau, but I hope he doesn't so Jerry has to continue to pay 2 coaches with no playoff revenue next year too.

I hope Minnesota doesn't can their current coach. I think he's earned another year with a very young team. Just like I thought Monty Williams started to turn the corner with the Pelicans last year & (then they all) took it in the moon.

I'd love to see Jerry have to pay two coaches now myself, if only to publicly force a continuing discussion about the worst front office in town.

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

KC looking for Asst coach job?

_________________
"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

The top 7 guys in the Bulls rotation will have missed a combined total of 171 games by the end of this season. In Thibs 1st season coaching he had 7 or 8 guys play in 80 or more games. In his 2nd yr. 6 played in 60 or more games. (Only 66 games).

During the Augustin season which many tout as his most significant coaching achievement, top 7 missed 104 games (72 of them by Rose).

The fact remains that for all the talk regarding next man up his teams were relatively speaking healthy in most cases. In some instances they were remarkably healthy. He probably gets them to their playoffs as an 8th seed if all things are equal. It's not the slam dunk that some believe it to be though. They should have won more than 50 last season.

_________________

Firing Thib's is one of the biggest Chicago sports management fuck ups of all time.

So Thibs' problem while he was here was that he wasn't conscientious enough about his players' health, and now that he's gone, the problem with comparing him to Hoiberg is that his players were too healthy. Got it.

The two players who missed the most games this year were Noah, who was promptly benched by the boy genius at the start of the season anyway, and Dunleavy, who's scarcely looked better than the craptastic wings who had to fill in for him. Injuries are not a convincing excuse for Hoiberg's performance, and if talent is the issue, then the people who assembled the talent should not be the ones trusted with the opportunity to rebuild the roster.

Mike Dunleavy is like an 11th man on a good team at this point. Let's just stop.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

The Bulls can't be considered both talent laden and have Mike Dunleavy in their starting lineup. The same goes for Taj Gibson. That is probably the shittiest starting forward combo in the league.

That is why I choose to cut Hoiberg a little slack. He has made mistakes but the biggest issue on this team is talent. There is a major deficit in that area. I overrated some of their guys, namely Mirotic and Snell. I have repeatedly stated that Dunleavy as a starting 3 isn't going to cut it. Taj as your starting 4 wasnt going to do it either. We got both this yr. and the results were not all that surprising.

For what it's worth he is your starting 3 man though so he has to be factored in the top 7 players. He also started for Thibs.

_________________

So your talent must suck if Dunleavy in your starting lineup, yet a team that won 50 games with him in the starting lineup underachieved?

You sure didn't seem to have a problem with FavreFan's assertion that he is an 11th man on a good team.

He was a much better player last season. Having him in your starting lineup didn't kill the Bulls. He looks to be finished this season. If you are arguing that he is a quality NBA player after watching him this season then I don't know what to tell you. He is finished. Taj Gibson isn't that good either. Worse pair of starting forwards in the league.

_________________

I never blamed Thibs for the injuries so I don't know where you are getting that from. The top 7 guys have missed a combined 171 games this season. Injuries to key guys effect every team in every sport. It doesn't jive with the Hoiberg sucks narrative and thus it must be ignored.

It's not that his players were too healthy either. He never had the injuries that Hoiberg endured this yr. I provided facts not opinions. The Bulls used over 20 different starting lineups this season.

Hoiberg may be a bad coach but when you look at the Bulls you see that this is not a talented team. I think that he would have had this team in the playoffs, but you only need about 2 more wins in order to accomplish this. That isn't really saying much.

_________________

I agree Dunleavy sucked this year and indeed said as much in my post. That's why the fact that he missed as many games as anyone bar Noah is not an adequate excuse for Hoiberg's performance. I also don't think he was a very high quality starting 3 last year either though, so even if he was worse this year, there was still a dearth of talent at that position during Thibs' last year.

I'm happy to cut Hoiberg slack on the talent issue rather than the injury excuse, but then I'm left wondering why anyone would want the front office that singlehandedly created this talent issue to stick around to try to fix it.

_________________

But across the board that was the primary issue between him and the front office cited for his sacking.

Again, over 100 of those games are from Noah, who was benched, and Dunleavy, who was no better than anyone who replaced him. I would also say that the use of top 7 alone is a rather coarse measure given that the loss of #7 weighted no differently from the loss of your top guy.

The Bulls missed 188 games due to injury in 2012-2013, with their indisputable best player out for the entirety of the season.


Again, I'm happy to give Hoiberg slack on the talent issue, but that just indicates gross mismanagement by those responsible for collecting that talent. And given that the Bulls 142.5 games lost due to injury on average over the preceding 4 years, the injuries could be seen neither as unprecedented nor unexpected by the management in question.

You are basically suggesting by the use of the term "weighted", that there isn't any difference between the Bulls best player Butler and there 7th best player Gibson/Dunleavy? Give me a break. Secondly it's obvious that Dunleavy was a better player last season. As was Pau Gasol too for that matter. Gasol at 34 had one of his best seasons. He was a hall of famer that played like a Hall of Famer. The Noah "benched" stuff isn't registering either. The Bulls were 8 games up prior to his injury. If there theoretically isn't much difference between Dunleavy and guys that replaced him, then why is Dunleavy continuing to start? Shouldn't a 35 yr old that is obviously on his last legs be benched because after all there isn't much difference? Obviously he is considered the better player.

Citing the totality of Bulls injuries during selected Thibs yrs (2013) is a misnomer too and a good use of rhetorical sleight of hand. If I were to sight games missed due to injury for the entire roster what would my number be?

Also while Rose was a difficult injury to overcome, the Bulls still had high level players without him. He was there best player, but the Bulls still had Deng and Noah, both All Stars even without him. In addition was Boozer, who was a starting caliber power forward at the time. Gibson isnt.

If the Bulls finish at 42-40 then it's probably safe to say that they make the playoffs in any of the Thibodeau yrs.

I'm not happy with Hoiberg, but this failure is moreso a failure of Garpax. I love how the Bulls such great talent, yet if you'd asked people on here about players like Bairstow, Felicio, and Holiday before the season, no one could have told you anything.

Thibs would probably have made this team a 7th or 8th seed, but he is no miracle worker.

_________________

I don't know if your math is correct but all injuries aren't the same. Losing a superstar for the season is worse than losing Dunleavy. Losing a superstar and trading your 2nd best player while you are several games under. 500 usually means you are a lottery team. With the exception of an aging Noah the Bulls didn't lose any important guy for an extended period of time this season.

_________________
Nas: Blago, who has single handedly destroyed CFMB?

Blago: https://youtube.com/shorts/Lftdxd-YXt8?feature=share


“We cannot turn away from this truth in this election, putting patriotism ahead of partisanship is not an aspiration —it is our duty.” -Liz Cheney