Ok half of that made sense. I'll address the half that didn't.

1.) I can't believe you just suggested that Michigan State hasn't been better historically than Illinois and isn't currently a better program. That's just a ridiculous assertation. Historically it's the 2nd most prestigious school in the conference in basketball and always has been. They didn't recent move up to nunber 2. They've been there since 1979. A lot of the recent success is Izzo but that's why getting a transcendent coach is important for big time programs. Don't go the Wanny route and say "If it wasn't for Coach K or Dean Smith those Duke/UNC programs wouldn't be nearly as highly regarded.".

2.) To compare Michigan's football credentials to Illinois' basketball credentials is also pretty ridiculous. I realize you were embellishing for effect, but I think you undermined your own argument by doing that. Boise St will never have a more respected program than Michigan. But they can, will, and already do have a better football program than teams like Michigan St, Texas A&M, UCLA, etc. and those football programs are much more equivalent to Illinois's basketball program than Michigan. Similarly, Butler has had a program that's been better than half the teams in the Big 10 Conference since 2005 and isn't showing signs of slowing down. Credit Brad Stevens if you want, but it is what it is.

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Illinois is a borderline top-25 program nationally. I'll give it that.

In order to solidify it's place, and I've basically said it before:

1. For the love of god upgrade the damn facilities. It's archaic and almost embarrassing.
2. Stabilize the administration/athletic department. Lots of turnover/upheaval/in-fighting. This is a turn off to coaches and recruits.
3. Land some big recruits, particularly from Chicago



If they can do these things, and it will take time, they can easily be a top20-15 program. They've got some things working against them that they can never change (location, etc)

They've got some work to do.

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If only they could have landed 2 of the last 4 Illinois Mr. Basketballs, that would have shown that UofI can still land a big recruit.

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But those were the ones that UK didn't want. Those weren't Jabari.

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That's not even close to correct. MSU was an afterthought before Magic Johnson and for 2 decades after he left until Izzo. Izzo is the only reason they have the prestige they have today.

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Richmond was offered by Duke, UNC, MSU, Florida, and Wisky.

They're pretty good.

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From 1980-2000 MSU made more Sweet 16 appearances than Illinois.

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I was wondering when the orange and blue signal would get Dr. Ken up

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And 3 of those 5 appearances were Tom Izzo.

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Well, Wisky makes a living off of other school's 2nd-tier recruits. A case could be made that Duke does the same a lot of the time. And Florida is not a real player in Chicago recruiting.

Jabari is a different level recruit than Richmond, isn't he?

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In hindsight that's easy to say, but I don't think they are different kinds of recruits at all. Richmond was always considered elite during the recruiting stage.

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Jabari is the #1 recruit in the nation as a junior.

Was Jereme Richmond the #1 recruit in the nation as a senior?

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Right. My point wasn't that MSU was great for those two decades. It's that being an afterthought didn't make them much less successful than Illinois, who had their most successful decade in history in the 80's. Illinois's basketball history is not comparable to MSU's. The Izzo years count.

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I believe he was #1 as a Freshman or Sophomore when he committed.

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FF, you said that MSU was the 2nd most prestigious program and always has been. That is not correct. Indiana and Purdue owned 1980-2000. MSU has had recent success. But they are not what you stated.

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Purdue didn't own anything in that time period. Indiana obviously did. Purdue had good years in 1980 and 1994 and 2000. They made one sweet 16 appearance from 1981-1993. Id take 1979 over those two decades of "accomplishments".

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But 1 good year doesn't make you an accomplished program. Purdue had 6 conference championships during that time period. They were annually competitors. MSU was not - until Izzo.

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I guess so. I think all that indicates is Indiana is the only Big 10 team that can lists its history when talking about the teams. Purdue was not even close to being annually competitive in the NCAA Tornament all those years. Illinois had a good run in the 80's but that's really it. Once you include history up to 2012 it becomes apparent that Indiana and MSU are the only programs that can say anything.

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Why? You're just weighting recent history. That's fine. But history says they are about the 6th best program. You can probably move them ahead of Illinois and Purdue because they've had better tourney success.

Also, you keep saying Illinois best run was the '80s but they won 5 conference titles between 98-05.

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Im not weighting recent history. I'm taking every year in the programs history into account. I just don't think a Big 10 title from a very mediocre Big 10 is as important as you seem to think it is. I consider Final Four appearances much more important for national prestige. That's why I think it's a no brainer who the top 2 teams are in Big 10 history. I don't think Illinois and Purdue are in the conversation. If they are it speaks to the historical mediocrity of the conference. And that's putting it nicely.

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Let me state it this way - if Izzo retired tomorrow, would you expect them to maintain their recent level of success? I wouldn't. I think they'd go back to what they were - a team that rarely made the tourney.

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Preempt - rarely is overstating it in the 60+ team field. But they wouldn't have much impact at the dance.

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I think they'd be Purdue of the 80's. In the tourney every year but not competitive in it.

But that's taking the Wanny route. You can't just say "If this program didn't have one of the best college coaches ever, then what?" argument. What if Bob Knight never coached Indiana? We've seen the result. College coaches are incredibly important. That's why it was a big deal when Self left and I think that's why it was justified to make a big deal of their failure to find a coach who wants to come here during the last search. Part of Illinois and Purdue's failures have been getting that guy and keeping him.

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Illinois' failures? Illinois' last 4 coaches have been incredibly successful. But, the last couple years have been relatively bad.

We just disagree. My issue was with you saying that they "had always been" the 2nd best program. I think you are wrong in that assessment. But, go nuts, I'm going to bed.

Later.

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That's why I said KEEPING him and specifically mentioned Self. Goodnight doc.

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Goodnight, FF.

Now, in true CSFMB fashion, I will forever hate you for your opinion.

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It's cool. I already plan to wake up at 10 tomorrow hungover and blame the alcohol for every dumb post I made in this and the Olympic thread.

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Everett Dean and Branch McCracken established Indiana before Bob Knight was born. And Illinois' best run is still probably during the late 40s/early 50s.

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Not really. Butler has been a fluke. They made two championship games in a row but those were as a 5th seed and an 8th seed. It's kind of like George Mason or VCU. Someone is going to make a run like that. It just happened to be Butler. Going forward, Illinois is significantly more likely to make another Final Four than Butler.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!