It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:11 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Organic Food Overrated
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 10:39 am
Posts: 1493
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y5bGpWNYKc

Below is the transcript of the video linked to above.

“You are what you eat,” goes the old saying. And everywhere we are urged to eat organic: it's more nutritious, pesticide-free, and protects animals and the environment. At least, that's what we are being told – or rather, sold. And thanks to a lot of very effective marketing, many people believe it. That's why, when researchers at Cornell University gave study participants a choice between two identical items, one labeled "organic" and one "regular," the participants confidently declared the "organic" choice to be lower in calories and more nutritious. They also said they'd pay 16 to 23 percent more for the organic choice. But these beliefs about organic food have nothing to do with reality.

In 2012, Stanford University's Center for Health Policy did the most comprehensive comparison and found organic foods are not nutritionally superior to conventional alternatives. And a more recent review of 20 years of research into animal products by Italian researchers confirmed these findings. The authors concluded: "Scientific studies do not show that organic products are more nutritious and safer than conventional foods."

That's fine, you might say. You don't eat organic foods just because of the health benefits, but because you care about the treatment of farm animals and of the environment. Unfortunately, the facts don't support these beliefs either.

Animals on organic farms are not generally healthier than animals on regular farms. A five-year US study of dairy farms showed that "health outcomes [for animals on organic farms] are similar to conventional dairies." And the Norwegian Scientific Committee for Food Safety reached a similar conclusion. It found "no difference in objective disease occurrence" on organic dairy farms as compared to conventional dairies. And while pigs and poultry on organic farms may enjoy better access to open areas, this freedom, studies show, also increases their exposure to parasites, pathogens and predators.

As for the environment, yes, organic farming will mean that in any one field, a farmer will use less energy and create fewer greenhouse gases. But there's a problem here. By forgoing fertilizers and pesticides, organic farming is much, much less efficient than standard farming, which means that organic farmers need much more land to grow the same amount of food.

A major study in Europe found that to produce the same gallon of milk organically, you need 59% more land. To produce meat, you need 82% more land. And for crops, it’s more than 200%.

And more land for agriculture means less land for nature. If U.S. agricultural production was entirely organic, it would mean we would need to convert an area bigger than the size of California entirely to farmland. Economically, the lower productivity of organics means we have to commit more resources – land, labor and capital. The total cost to the US economy of going organic would run to about $200 billion annually.

But, surely organic food means no pesticides, right? Wrong. Organic farming can use any pesticide that is "natural.” Natural pesticides include, for example, copper sulphate and Pyreethrin. The former has resulted in liver disease in vineyard sprayers in France, according to a 1996 study; and the latter, a 3.7-fold increase in leukemia among farmers who handled it compared to those who had not, according to a 2002 study.

Yes, it is true that non-organic foods carry a higher risk of pesticide contamination. But that risk is almost non-existent. Rough calculations suggest that all the pesticides on food eaten by Americans may cause around 20 extra cancer deaths per year. You have a similar chance of being mauled to death by a cow.

In sum, organic food is not healthier for you, nor is it better for animals and the environment than conventionally farmed food. I know this goes against everything you have come to believe, but that only proves the power of marketing. Organic food is a First World luxury. And while buying it is just as valid as any other luxury purchase, one should resist any implied moral superiority – as, for example, when fashion designer Vivienne Westwood famously exclaimed that people who can't afford organic food should "eat less."

Unfortunately, a lot of people in the developing world don't have the option of eating less. They worry about eating, period. To do that they need access to cheaper food, which means more access to effective fertilizers and pesticides.

So, next time you see organic produce at the supermarket, don't just swallow the marketing campaign without some critical thought.

I'm Bjorn Lomborg, president of the Copenhagen Consensus Center.

_________________
God is the uncaused cause of the universe. He had no beginning and has no end. He is not bound by the laws of the universe he created.


Last edited by Drake LaRrieta on Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:29 pm
Posts: 34796
pizza_Place: Al's Pizza
Heart
Lungs
Kidneys

_________________
Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:03 pm
Posts: 42923
Whole Foods
Fresh Market
Aldi

_________________
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
I am not a legal expert, how many times do I have to say it?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:24 am
Posts: 38526
Location: RST Video
pizza_Place: Bill's Pizza - Mundelein
Drake LaRrieta wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y5bGpWNYKc


Why do you hate helicopter soccer moms?

_________________
Darkside wrote:
Our hotel smelled like dead hooker vagina (before you ask I had gotten a detailed description from beardown)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:17 am
Posts: 72289
Location: Palatine
pizza_Place: Lou Malnatis
I'm not clicking on that link but the thread title is correct

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 88693
Location: To the left of my post
FavreFan wrote:
I'm not clicking on that link but the thread title is correct
It took a while but he finally got one right.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 10:39 am
Posts: 1493
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
FavreFan wrote:
I'm not clicking on that link but the thread title is correct


I added the transcript of the video to the original post, so you don't have to clink on anything.

_________________
God is the uncaused cause of the universe. He had no beginning and has no end. He is not bound by the laws of the universe he created.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:54 am
Posts: 22706
pizza_Place: A few...
"Rough calculations suggest that all the pesticides on food eaten by Americans may cause around 20 extra cancer deaths per year. "

As long as you aren't in that group of 20, what's the big deal?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:10 pm
Posts: 38609
Location: "Across 110th Street"
Chus wrote:
Heart
Lungs
Kidneys


Big Brane wrote:
and shockingly CHUSE didn't mention Brane!

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:36 pm 
Offline
100000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:17 pm
Posts: 101522
pizza_Place: Vito & Nick's
Drake LaRrieta wrote:
I'm Bjorn Lomborg, president of the Copenhagen Consensus Center.

Skoal
Red Man
Kodiak

_________________
ltg wrote:
[Fields will] be the starting QB on an NFL roster at the start of next season. Book It!
Caller Bob wrote:
There will never be an effective vaccine. I'll never get one anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 88693
Location: To the left of my post
My friend started an organic diet and he died. Why won't medical science investigate it? Organics = profits over people.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:54 am
Posts: 22706
pizza_Place: A few...
https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2 ... tudy/?_r=0

I tried to ignore the month-old “Stanford study.” I really did. It made so little sense that I thought it would have little impact.

That was dumb of me, and I’m sorry.

The study, which suggested — incredibly — that there is no “strong evidence that organic foods are significantly more nutritious than conventional foods,” caused as great an uproar as anything that has happened, food-wise, this year. (By comparison, the Alzheimer’s/diabetes link I wrote about last week was ignored.)

That’s because headlines (and, of course, tweets) matter. The Stanford study was not only an exercise in misdirection, it was a headline generator. By providing “useful” and “counterintuitive” information about organic food, it played right into the hands of the news hungry while conveniently obscuring important features of organic agriculture.

If I may play with metaphor for a moment, the study was like declaring guns no more dangerous than baseball bats when it comes to blunt-object head injuries. It was the equivalent of comparing milk and Elmer’s glue on the basis of whiteness. It did, in short, miss the point. Even Crystal Smith-Spangler, a Stanford co-author, perfectly captured the narrowness of the study when she said: “some believe that organic food is always healthier and more nutritious. We were a little surprised that we didn’t find that.” That’s because they didn’t look — or even worse, they ignored.

In fact, the Stanford study — actually a meta-study, an analysis of more than 200 existing studies — does say that “consumption of organic foods may reduce exposure to pesticide residues and antibiotic-resistant bacteria.”

Since that’s largely why people eat organic foods, what’s the big deal? Especially if we refer to common definitions of “nutritious” and point out that, in general, nutritious food promotes health and good condition. How can something that reduces your exposure to pesticides and antibiotic-resistant bacteria not be “more nutritious” than food that doesn’t?

Because the study narrowly defines “nutritious” as containing more vitamins. Dr. Dena Bravata, the study’s senior author, conceded that there are other reasons why people opt for organic (the aforementioned pesticides and bacteria chief among them) but said that if the decision between buying organic or conventional food were based on nutrients, “there is not robust evidence to choose one or the other.” By which standard you can claim that, based on nutrients, Frosted Flakes are a better choice than an apple.

But they’re not. And overlooking these key factors allows the authors to imply that there isn’t “robust” evidence to choose organic food over conventional. (Which for many people there is.) Under the convenient cover of helping consumers make informed choices, the study constructed a set of criteria that would easily allow them to cut “organic” down to size.

Suspect conclusions derived from suspect studies are increasingly common. In the last couple of weeks: having a poor sense of smell might be linked to being a psychopath. People who read food labels are thinner. G.M.O.’s give rats tumors. (That one in particular violated many rules of both science and ethics.) Usually these “revelations” are of little more than passing interest, but they can sometimes be downright destructive. Susan Clark, the executive director of the Columbia Foundation, summed up the flaws of the Stanford approach perfectly in a letter to her colleagues:

“The researchers started with a narrow set of assumptions and arrived at entirely predictable conclusions. Stanford should be ashamed of the lack of expertise about food and farming among the researchers, a low level of academic rigor in the study, its biased conclusions, and lack of transparency about the industry ties of the major researchers on the study. Normally we busy people would simply ignore another useless academic study, but this study was so aggressively spun by the PR masters that it requires a response.”

When Clark says “aggressively spun by the PR masters,” this is what she means: a Google search for “Stanford Annals of Internal Medicine” gave me these six results in the top seven:

Stanford Scientists Cast Doubt on Advantages of Organic Meat and Produce (The New York Times)
Why Organic Food May Not Be Healthier for You (NPR)
Organic food no more nutritious than non-organic, study finds (MSNBC)
Organic Food Is No Healthier Than Conventional Food (U.S. News and World Report)
Study Questions How Much Better Organic Food Is (Google via A.P.)
Save Your Cash? Organic Food Is Not Healthier: Stanford U. (New York Daily News)


Yet even within its narrow framework it appears the Stanford study was incorrect. Last year Kirsten Brandt, a researcher from Newcastle University, published a similar analysis of existing studies and wound up with the opposite result, concluding that organic foods are actually more nutritious. In combing through the Stanford study she’s not only noticed a critical error in properly identifying a class of nutrients, a spelling error indicative of biochemical incompetence (or at least an egregious oversight) that skewed one important result, but also that the researchers curiously excluded evaluating many nutrients that she found to be considerably higher in organic foods.

Even the Web site of Stanford’s Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies (which supported the research) features an article right above that about the new study that says “study confirms value of organic farming” and details how conventional agriculture is much more likely to contaminate drinking water with nitrates, which “can cause serious illness in humans, particularly small children.” What’s healthy and nutritious again?

Like too many studies, the Stanford study dangerously isolates a finding from its larger context. It significantly plays down the disparity in pesticides (read Tom Philpott on this) and neglects to mention that 10,000 to 20,000 United States agricultural workers get a pesticide-poisoning diagnosis each year. And while the study concedes that “the risk for isolating bacteria resistant to three or more antibiotics was 33 percent higher among conventional chicken and pork than organic alternatives,” it apparently didn’t seek to explore how consuming antibiotic-resistant bacteria might be considered “non-nutritious.” Finally (I think) it turns out that Cargill (the largest privately held company in the United States) provides major financing for Freeman Spogli, and that’s inspired a petition to retract the findings.

That the authors of the study chose to focus on a trivial aspect of the organic versus conventional comparison is regrettable. That they published a study that would so obviously be construed as a blanket knock against organic agriculture is willfully misleading and dangerous. That so many leading news agencies fall for this stuff is scary.

Clark is right: this junk science deserves a response. Ignoring it isn’t enough. I apologize.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:29 am
Posts: 64436
Location: Darkside Estates
pizza_Place: A cat got an online degree.
Organic foods kill more people by not maximizing farming capacity per acre than the pesticides do.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014
bigfan wrote:
Many that is true, but an incomplete statement.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 10:39 am
Posts: 1493
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
The non-GMO people are also against Golden Rice, which is supposed to help people with Vitamin A deficiencies in Asia.

_________________
God is the uncaused cause of the universe. He had no beginning and has no end. He is not bound by the laws of the universe he created.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:54 am
Posts: 22706
pizza_Place: A few...
Darkside wrote:
Organic foods kill more people by not maximizing farming capacity per acre than the pesticides do.


So there is a food shortage in this country?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:29 am
Posts: 64436
Location: Darkside Estates
pizza_Place: A cat got an online degree.
Peoria Matt wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Organic foods kill more people by not maximizing farming capacity per acre than the pesticides do.


So there is a food shortage in this country?

There is. We have thousands of people starving in this country.
And there are other countries on the planet as well

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014
bigfan wrote:
Many that is true, but an incomplete statement.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:07 pm
Posts: 7907
Location: A large oak tree.
pizza_Place: Nowhere
Yep. That's why we ineffiecintly turn corn and beans into fuel for cars.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:29 pm
Posts: 34796
pizza_Place: Al's Pizza
I will buy organic if it is cheaper. Last summer, Fresh Thyme Market had pints of organic raspberries for $0.99.

_________________
Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:54 am
Posts: 22706
pizza_Place: A few...
Darkside wrote:
Peoria Matt wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Organic foods kill more people by not maximizing farming capacity per acre than the pesticides do.


So there is a food shortage in this country?

There is. We have thousands of people starving in this country.
And there are other countries on the planet as well


Is the starving a result of not enough food or not enough income to buy the food?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:54 am
Posts: 22706
pizza_Place: A few...
Drunk Squirrel wrote:
Yep. That's why we ineffiecintly turn corn and beans into fuel for cars.


Ding Ding Ding!!!

And how much corn is used to make high fructose corn syrup?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:34 am 
Offline
1000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:12 pm
Posts: 17947
pizza_Place: 6 characters
We eat primarily organic or local at home for specific health reasons. As more organics become available, however, it's pretty obvious that the lines between conventional and organic are extremely blurred.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:24 am
Posts: 38526
Location: RST Video
pizza_Place: Bill's Pizza - Mundelein
Chus wrote:
I will buy organic if it is cheaper. Last summer, Fresh Thyme Market had pints of organic raspberries for $0.99.


I can't remember the last time I saw organic cheaper than regular...

_________________
Darkside wrote:
Our hotel smelled like dead hooker vagina (before you ask I had gotten a detailed description from beardown)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:29 pm
Posts: 34796
pizza_Place: Al's Pizza
sjboyd0137 wrote:
Chus wrote:
I will buy organic if it is cheaper. Last summer, Fresh Thyme Market had pints of organic raspberries for $0.99.


I can't remember the last time I saw organic cheaper than regular...


Yeah, it isn't often. That is the only example that comes to mind.

_________________
Good people drink good beer - Hunter S. Thompson

<º)))><

Waiting for the time when I can finally say
That this has all been wonderful, but now I'm on my way


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 11:10 am
Posts: 42094
Location: Rock Ridge (splendid!)
pizza_Place: Charlie Fox's / Paisano's
Regular Reader wrote:
Chus wrote:
Heart
Lungs
Kidneys


Big Brane wrote:
and shockingly CHUSE didn't mention Brane!

:lol:

_________________
Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:29 am
Posts: 64436
Location: Darkside Estates
pizza_Place: A cat got an online degree.
Peoria Matt wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Peoria Matt wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Organic foods kill more people by not maximizing farming capacity per acre than the pesticides do.


So there is a food shortage in this country?

There is. We have thousands of people starving in this country.
And there are other countries on the planet as well


Is the starving a result of not enough food or not enough income to buy the food?

What happens to food prices when there is more food grown per acre?
And there's plenty of people who don't have food in other countries, whatever the price.

_________________
"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014
bigfan wrote:
Many that is true, but an incomplete statement.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:54 am
Posts: 22706
pizza_Place: A few...
WEST DES MOINES, Iowa (June 6, 2017) — Today, Hy-Vee, Inc. announced that with the help of its customers, it has rescued more than 1 million pounds of fruits and vegetables from landfills — just four months after it began offering the Misfits produce program. To further combat the nation’s food waste issue, Hy-Vee began offering so-called “ugly” produce in nearly all of its grocery stores in January.

“Ugly” produce is cosmetically challenged fruits and vegetables that would traditionally go unsold due to the industry’s size and shape standards. Hy-Vee partnered with Robinson Fresh, one of the largest produce companies in the world, to offer its line of Misfits produce.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:17 pm 
Offline
100000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:17 pm
Posts: 101522
pizza_Place: Vito & Nick's
My favorite ugly vegetable is Terri Schiavo.

_________________
ltg wrote:
[Fields will] be the starting QB on an NFL roster at the start of next season. Book It!
Caller Bob wrote:
There will never be an effective vaccine. I'll never get one anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:22 am
Posts: 15018
pizza_Place: Wha Happen?
Peoria Matt wrote:
WEST DES MOINES, Iowa (June 6, 2017) — Today, Hy-Vee, Inc. announced that with the help of its customers, it has rescued more than 1 million pounds of fruits and vegetables from landfills — just four months after it began offering the Misfits produce program. To further combat the nation’s food waste issue, Hy-Vee began offering so-called “ugly” produce in nearly all of its grocery stores in January.

“Ugly” produce is cosmetically challenged fruits and vegetables that would traditionally go unsold due to the industry’s size and shape standards. Hy-Vee partnered with Robinson Fresh, one of the largest produce companies in the world, to offer its line of Misfits produce.

why are they trying to sell it? I mean, bully for them but why not use it to help feed those in poverty?

_________________
Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:51 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:45 pm
Posts: 37079
Location: Lovetron
pizza_Place: Malnati's
Peoria Matt wrote:
Darkside wrote:
Organic foods kill more people by not maximizing farming capacity per acre than the pesticides do.


So there is a food shortage in this country?


No. :lol:

And the opposite of the reason given above is actually true.

Forty percent
Forty percent of food in the United States is never eaten, amounting to $165 billion a year in waste, taking a toll on the country's water resources and significantly increasing greenhouse gas emissions, according to a report from the Natural Resources Defense Council released this week.Aug 22, 2012
40% of U.S. food wasted, report says – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs
news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/22/40-of-u-s-food-wasted-report-says/

_________________
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The victims are the American People and the Republic itself.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:54 am
Posts: 22706
pizza_Place: A few...
Seacrest and I finally agree on something.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group