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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:09 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Terrorism against the U.S. will cease the second that the U.S. stops attempting to influence the political and economic affairs of countries where terrorists are spawned. Anger towards the U.S. is directly tied to this and frankly it should be. We are bombing the hell out of those countries and repeatedly telling them that they and their way of life arent worth shit. We wonder why they may actually have a problem with it. Talk about being tone deaf.


If this were the case why all the attacks in France, England, Germany, Russia, and Belgium? It's also been stated before. Why are there no Latin American terrorists?

Also, you condone the enslavement of the female half of the population in many Muslim countries? You can condemn US policy, but lets not pretend that Islam does not have problems on its own.


Islam does have problems. Their problems are not for America to solve however.


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:10 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Beyond that, there are no Christians who are widely accepted as learned religious scholars who support such beliefs.

Perhaps there would be if Christians had been subjected to the centuries of imperialist violence the US and Europe have launched on the Middle East. But I realize that brings actual materialism into the picture instead of the reductive and convenient motherlode of bad ideas rubbish.


Talk about not knowing your history. Muslims have been quite aggressive in colonizing others. This only ended because they fell behind in science, which has been a good thing for human progress.

Islam claims to be the ultimate solution to all human problems. The final revelation of the Abrahamic god. To claim that this belief has no influence on this group of people is laughable. Is the West to blame for their lack of scientific achievements as well?

Is the question colonialism or radicalism? If the former, Islam is hardly any more guilty than any Christian nation. And if the latter, then again I'd suggest the salience of radical thought can be just as attributed to the actions of the West as anything else. The current regime in Iran can be directly traced back to the US installing the Shah against a democratically elected leader who didn't want to provide oil at the US's asking price.


So why are there not Vietnamese suicide bombers, or Latin American terrorists flying planes into buildings. Your argument that American aggression is a singular-cause is absurd. Their belief in Islam is certainly a factor.

How many drone strikes and wars have we launched in the Middle East compared to Latin America and Vietnam in the last three decades?


Invaded Panama. Have funded proxy wars throughout Latin America for years including the Contras. The War on Drugs is threatening Mexican society. I would say quite a bit of intervention.


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:12 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
We would just have to end all religion. There is a path to doing it, and we are on it here in the West.


Moreso in Western Europe.

:lol: :lol:

Because it worked out so well last century when the Communists did it.


Communism did not end religion. It just put the head of state in the place of god.


Oh, the Communists tried.

History is your friend, not your enemy.


Yeah don't know where he got his facts on that one from. It was one of the basic tenets of Soviet doctrine.


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:16 pm 
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long time guy wrote:

Islam does have problems. Their problems are not for America to solve however.

Since 1941 the United States has taken it upon itself to protect the world from large scale evil, be it Soviet communism or Nazi's. To leave the rest of the civilized world out to dry against the Islamic threat would be a crime against the continued progress of mankind.

Im not saying France, UK, Russia, India (definitely been doing their part) and even China shouldn't be helping too, but it's our job to eradicate Islam for the betterment of humanity.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:17 pm 
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America wrote:
long time guy wrote:

Islam does have problems. Their problems are not for America to solve however.

Since 1941 the United States has taken it upon itself to protect the world from large scale evil, be it Soviet communism or Nazi's. To leave the rest of the civilized world out to dry against the Islamic threat would be a crime against the continued progress of mankind.

Im not saying France, UK, Russia, India (definitely been doing their part) and even China shouldn't be helping too, but it's our job to eradicate Islam for the betterment of humanity.

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:22 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
We would just have to end all religion. There is a path to doing it, and we are on it here in the West.


Moreso in Western Europe.

:lol: :lol:

Because it worked out so well last century when the Communists did it.


Communism did not end religion. It just put the head of state in the place of god.


Oh, the Communists tried.

History is your friend, not your enemy.


Yeah don't know where he got his facts on that one from. It was one of the basic tenets of Soviet doctrine.


I've repeatedly answered this. If you are ignoring it now you are being willfully ignorant.


Last edited by WaitingforRuffcorn on Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:23 pm 
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America wrote:
long time guy wrote:

Islam does have problems. Their problems are not for America to solve however.

Since 1941 the United States has taken it upon itself to protect the world from large scale evil, be it Soviet communism or Nazi's. To leave the rest of the civilized world out to dry against the Islamic threat would be a crime against the continued progress of mankind.

Im not saying France, UK, Russia, India (definitely been doing their part) and even China shouldn't be helping too, but it's our job to eradicate Islam for the betterment of humanity.

Yup


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:26 pm 
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I see what Ogie is a saying about the absence of religion leaving a void.

I am an atheist, but in a perverted way, the existence of religion makes my life easier and safer. It's like taxes: I hate paying them, but on some level they provide people with enough welfare to keep from robbing or killing me (hopefully).

Let's say the leaders of all the major religions came forward and said it was all a sham, and religions were effectively ended.

Given human nature, would that lead to more or less violence and unrest? On one hand, you wouldn't have people thinking their suicide killings would be rewarded in an afterlife. But on the other hand, how would millions here and billions around the world cope with the realization that this is all they have and there isn't a heaven to dream about? I'd imagine they would demand more from their current life and wouldn't be satisfied being told to suffer now and God will take care of you later.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:28 pm 
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Jaw Breaker wrote:
Let's say the leaders of all the major religions came forward and said it was all a sham, and religions were effectively ended.

Given human nature, would that lead to more or less violence and unrest? On one hand, you wouldn't have people thinking their suicide killings would be rewarded in an afterlife. But on the other hand, how would millions here and billions around the world cope with the realization that this is all they have and there isn't a heaven to dream about? I'd imagine they would demand more from their current life and wouldn't be satisfied being told to suffer now and God will take care of you later.
We live in one of the least violent times in history with religion being much less important than it was even 50 years ago.

I think we'd be fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:28 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Beyond that, there are no Christians who are widely accepted as learned religious scholars who support such beliefs.

Perhaps there would be if Christians had been subjected to the centuries of imperialist violence the US and Europe have launched on the Middle East. But I realize that brings actual materialism into the picture instead of the reductive and convenient motherlode of bad ideas rubbish.


Talk about not knowing your history. Muslims have been quite aggressive in colonizing others. This only ended because they fell behind in science, which has been a good thing for human progress.

Islam claims to be the ultimate solution to all human problems. The final revelation of the Abrahamic god. To claim that this belief has no influence on this group of people is laughable. Is the West to blame for their lack of scientific achievements as well?

Is the question colonialism or radicalism? If the former, Islam is hardly any more guilty than any Christian nation. And if the latter, then again I'd suggest the salience of radical thought can be just as attributed to the actions of the West as anything else. The current regime in Iran can be directly traced back to the US installing the Shah against a democratically elected leader who didn't want to provide oil at the US's asking price.



Yep. Chas would tell you that it was the result of an attack conducted by Barbary Pirates though.


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:29 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Terrorism against the U.S. will cease the second that the U.S. stops attempting to influence the political and economic affairs of countries where terrorists are spawned. Anger towards the U.S. is directly tied to this and frankly it should be. We are bombing the hell out of those countries and repeatedly telling them that they and their way of life arent worth shit. We wonder why they may actually have a problem with it. Talk about being tone deaf.


If this were the case why all the attacks in France, England, Germany, Russia, and Belgium? It's also been stated before. Why are there no Latin American terrorists?

Also, you condone the enslavement of the female half of the population in many Muslim countries? You can condemn US policy, but lets not pretend that Islam does not have problems on its own.


Islam does have problems. Their problems are not for America to solve however.


That's fine, but Islam is creating a lot of problems in the West.


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:30 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
Let's say the leaders of all the major religions came forward and said it was all a sham, and religions were effectively ended.

Given human nature, would that lead to more or less violence and unrest? On one hand, you wouldn't have people thinking their suicide killings would be rewarded in an afterlife. But on the other hand, how would millions here and billions around the world cope with the realization that this is all they have and there isn't a heaven to dream about? I'd imagine they would demand more from their current life and wouldn't be satisfied being told to suffer now and God will take care of you later.
We live in one of the least violent times in history with religion being much less important than it was even 50 years ago.

I think we'd be fine.


They are not going to say that though. It's going to be up to science to find answers- and the answers to the questions raised by religion might provide far more meaning and peace than stories of human sacrifice for our benefit.


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:35 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
long time guy wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Terrorism against the U.S. will cease the second that the U.S. stops attempting to influence the political and economic affairs of countries where terrorists are spawned. Anger towards the U.S. is directly tied to this and frankly it should be. We are bombing the hell out of those countries and repeatedly telling them that they and their way of life arent worth shit. We wonder why they may actually have a problem with it. Talk about being tone deaf.


If this were the case why all the attacks in France, England, Germany, Russia, and Belgium? It's also been stated before. Why are there no Latin American terrorists?

Also, you condone the enslavement of the female half of the population in many Muslim countries? You can condemn US policy, but lets not pretend that Islam does not have problems on its own.


Islam does have problems. Their problems are not for America to solve however.


That's fine, but Islam is creating a lot of problems in the West.



NO that is very one sided. Islam wasn't concerned about the West until the West started meddling in the Middle East. For all the talk about attacking the West all of the wars sure do seem to be taking place on Middle Eastern soil for some not so strange reason.

Contrary to American propaganda tensions didn't begin with the 9/11 attacks. Revisionists and American apologists ignore the FACTS too often. American meddling began well before that.


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:37 pm 
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Hockey Gay wrote:
America wrote:
long time guy wrote:

Islam does have problems. Their problems are not for America to solve however.

Since 1941 the United States has taken it upon itself to protect the world from large scale evil, be it Soviet communism or Nazi's. To leave the rest of the civilized world out to dry against the Islamic threat would be a crime against the continued progress of mankind.

Im not saying France, UK, Russia, India (definitely been doing their part) and even China shouldn't be helping too, but it's our job to eradicate Islam for the betterment of humanity.

Yup


America for President? Caller Bob as VP.....

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:39 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
long time guy wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Terrorism against the U.S. will cease the second that the U.S. stops attempting to influence the political and economic affairs of countries where terrorists are spawned. Anger towards the U.S. is directly tied to this and frankly it should be. We are bombing the hell out of those countries and repeatedly telling them that they and their way of life arent worth shit. We wonder why they may actually have a problem with it. Talk about being tone deaf.


If this were the case why all the attacks in France, England, Germany, Russia, and Belgium? It's also been stated before. Why are there no Latin American terrorists?

Also, you condone the enslavement of the female half of the population in many Muslim countries? You can condemn US policy, but lets not pretend that Islam does not have problems on its own.


Islam does have problems. Their problems are not for America to solve however.


That's fine, but Islam is creating a lot of problems in the West.



NO that is very one sided. Islam wasn't concerned about the West until the West started meddling in the Middle East. For all the talk about attacking the West all of the wars sure do seem to be taking place on Middle Eastern soil for some not so strange reason.

Contrary to American propaganda tensions didn't begin with the 9/11 attacks. Revisionists and American apologists ignore the FACTS too often. American meddling began well before that.

Islam has been at odds with the west for over a thousand years.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:39 pm 
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long time guy wrote:
Hatchetman wrote:
Islam has been at war with the west for over 1300 years. not stopping any time soon...err ever.


That's a lie.


You're right. It's been more than 1300 years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_co ... he_Maghreb


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:40 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
They are not going to say that though. It's going to be up to science to find answers- and the answers to the questions raised by religion might provide far more meaning and peace than stories of human sacrifice for our benefit.
This just isn't supportable though unless I misunderstand you.

Given how many people are distancing themselves from religion we should expect modern society to be more violent but instead the opposite is happening.

Now, people may behave differently but they wouldn't necessarily be more violent. We certainly wouldn't see the need to hurt or kill based on religious principles and we would still have our same social order and expectations of behavior.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:43 pm 
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America wrote:
long time guy wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
long time guy wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Terrorism against the U.S. will cease the second that the U.S. stops attempting to influence the political and economic affairs of countries where terrorists are spawned. Anger towards the U.S. is directly tied to this and frankly it should be. We are bombing the hell out of those countries and repeatedly telling them that they and their way of life arent worth shit. We wonder why they may actually have a problem with it. Talk about being tone deaf.


If this were the case why all the attacks in France, England, Germany, Russia, and Belgium? It's also been stated before. Why are there no Latin American terrorists?

Also, you condone the enslavement of the female half of the population in many Muslim countries? You can condemn US policy, but lets not pretend that Islam does not have problems on its own.


Islam does have problems. Their problems are not for America to solve however.


That's fine, but Islam is creating a lot of problems in the West.



NO that is very one sided. Islam wasn't concerned about the West until the West started meddling in the Middle East. For all the talk about attacking the West all of the wars sure do seem to be taking place on Middle Eastern soil for some not so strange reason.

Contrary to American propaganda tensions didn't begin with the 9/11 attacks. Revisionists and American apologists ignore the FACTS too often. American meddling began well before that.

Islam has been at odds with the west for over a thousand years.



How long has it been at odds with the U.S. and What was the genesis of the war?


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:47 pm 
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Jaw Breaker wrote:
I see what Ogie is a saying about the absence of religion leaving a void.

I am an atheist, but in a perverted way, the existence of religion makes my life easier and safer. It's like taxes: I hate paying them, but on some level they provide people with enough welfare to keep from robbing or killing me (hopefully).

Let's say the leaders of all the major religions came forward and said it was all a sham, and religions were effectively ended.

Given human nature, would that lead to more or less violence and unrest? On one hand, you wouldn't have people thinking their suicide killings would be rewarded in an afterlife. But on the other hand, how would millions here and billions around the world cope with the realization that this is all they have and there isn't a heaven to dream about? I'd imagine they would demand more from their current life and wouldn't be satisfied being told to suffer now and God will take care of you later.

There is a lot of truth here, and you honestly don't need religion to convince people to go suicide bombing. I'm pretty sure the Japanese kamikaze pilots did not believe in an afterlife with virgins. They were driven by nationalism and if you eliminate religion, well then nationalism is still a thing and many people will gladly die for it.

Heck, by the time they turned to kamikaze's they had effectively lost the war yet they still sent thousands on such missions.

Remove religion and something else will fill that void, whether it is the state or some charismatic leader, and yes when you have those followers you can weaponize them for your cause. We as a species are drawn to follow a leader and instead of clergymen, it will be something else.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:59 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
They are not going to say that though. It's going to be up to science to find answers- and the answers to the questions raised by religion might provide far more meaning and peace than stories of human sacrifice for our benefit.
This just isn't supportable though unless I misunderstand you.

Given how many people are distancing themselves from religion we should expect modern society to be more violent but instead the opposite is happening.

Now, people may behave differently but they wouldn't necessarily be more violent. We certainly wouldn't see the need to hurt or kill based on religious principles and we would still have our same social order and expectations of behavior.


I was replying to the other post. We are in a agreement on this.


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:03 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
I see what Ogie is a saying about the absence of religion leaving a void.

I am an atheist, but in a perverted way, the existence of religion makes my life easier and safer. It's like taxes: I hate paying them, but on some level they provide people with enough welfare to keep from robbing or killing me (hopefully).

Let's say the leaders of all the major religions came forward and said it was all a sham, and religions were effectively ended.

Given human nature, would that lead to more or less violence and unrest? On one hand, you wouldn't have people thinking their suicide killings would be rewarded in an afterlife. But on the other hand, how would millions here and billions around the world cope with the realization that this is all they have and there isn't a heaven to dream about? I'd imagine they would demand more from their current life and wouldn't be satisfied being told to suffer now and God will take care of you later.

There is a lot of truth here, and you honestly don't need religion to convince people to go suicide bombing. I'm pretty sure the Japanese kamikaze pilots did not believe in an afterlife with virgins. They were driven by nationalism and if you eliminate religion, well then nationalism is still a thing and many people will gladly die for it.

Heck, by the time they turned to kamikaze's they had effectively lost the war yet they still sent thousands on such missions.

Remove religion and something else will fill that void, whether it is the state or some charismatic leader, and yes when you have those followers you can weaponize them for your cause. We as a species are drawn to follow a leader and instead of clergymen, it will be something else.


The Japanese believed the Emperor was a god. That was a state sponsored religion. And there are many people that do fine without anything to "fill the void" without religion.

To say we can't live without some system of lies to keep us content is pure speculation. Technology is transforming how we communicate, and what we place meaning in. Who knows what we will come-up with to make us all more interconnected - without all the myths, legends, contradictions and lies necessary for religion.


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:04 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
They are not going to say that though. It's going to be up to science to find answers- and the answers to the questions raised by religion might provide far more meaning and peace than stories of human sacrifice for our benefit.
This just isn't supportable though unless I misunderstand you.

Given how many people are distancing themselves from religion we should expect modern society to be more violent but instead the opposite is happening.

Now, people may behave differently but they wouldn't necessarily be more violent. We certainly wouldn't see the need to hurt or kill based on religious principles and we would still have our same social order and expectations of behavior.


I was replying to the other post. We are in a agreement on this.
Got it.

I mean, religion by their own admission is irrational. It's very unlikely that the world would decline without religion being the leading force of decision making.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:08 pm 
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The two worlds being at each other's throats for over a century theory is simplistic. Several scholars have thoroughly dismantled the Huntington thesis and it's really not quite difficult to do. As just one example you can take a look at the transmission of philosophical works on logic and other works like in medicine that are indebted to all the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim fingers that laid hands on them. This all happened in parallel with the wars that are typical of the middle ages. Of course different groups of different religions warred with each other, but they also warred amongst themselves. That has more to do with the decentralized nature of political organization before the rise of centralized nation-states in the 1900s than it has anything to do with uniform religious bodies warring against others of a different religious persuasion. You can take the African slave trade as an example where Africans sold fellow Africans, including Muslims and Christians, into slavery to Western traders. If you subscribe to the Huntington thesis then this is an impossibility because the nature of relationships between different polities is clear-cut: the Africans would never help the "enemy," especially by selling their own into slavery to make a profit. That did obviously happen, as did several thousand other events that complicate this false dichotomy. The us vs them thesis is a more simplified take on events that is easy to understand but ultimately wrong when forwarded as a general explanation of the last 1000 plus years.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:09 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
I see what Ogie is a saying about the absence of religion leaving a void.

I am an atheist, but in a perverted way, the existence of religion makes my life easier and safer. It's like taxes: I hate paying them, but on some level they provide people with enough welfare to keep from robbing or killing me (hopefully).

Let's say the leaders of all the major religions came forward and said it was all a sham, and religions were effectively ended.

Given human nature, would that lead to more or less violence and unrest? On one hand, you wouldn't have people thinking their suicide killings would be rewarded in an afterlife. But on the other hand, how would millions here and billions around the world cope with the realization that this is all they have and there isn't a heaven to dream about? I'd imagine they would demand more from their current life and wouldn't be satisfied being told to suffer now and God will take care of you later.

There is a lot of truth here, and you honestly don't need religion to convince people to go suicide bombing. I'm pretty sure the Japanese kamikaze pilots did not believe in an afterlife with virgins. They were driven by nationalism and if you eliminate religion, well then nationalism is still a thing and many people will gladly die for it.

Heck, by the time they turned to kamikaze's they had effectively lost the war yet they still sent thousands on such missions.

Remove religion and something else will fill that void, whether it is the state or some charismatic leader, and yes when you have those followers you can weaponize them for your cause. We as a species are drawn to follow a leader and instead of clergymen, it will be something else.


The Japanese believed the Emperor was a god. That was a state sponsored religion. And there are many people that do fine without anything to "fill the void" without religion.

To say we can't live without some system of lies to keep us content is pure speculation. Technology is transforming how we communicate, and what we place meaning in. Who knows what we will come-up with to make us all more interconnected - without all the myths, legends, contradictions and lies necessary for religion.
That is exactly my point, remove religion and something else will fill the void for the people who would otherwise be religious. As for technology spreading knowledge, you have way too much faith in humanity if you think it's only going to enlighten people. I give you Alex Jones on the right and the rise of the anti-vaxxers on the left. face it, technology will spread myths and misinformation plenty. People will be weaponized for causes by charismatic leaders just as easily.

We are a species of followers and religion's demise would not change that.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:12 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
I see what Ogie is a saying about the absence of religion leaving a void.

I am an atheist, but in a perverted way, the existence of religion makes my life easier and safer. It's like taxes: I hate paying them, but on some level they provide people with enough welfare to keep from robbing or killing me (hopefully).

Let's say the leaders of all the major religions came forward and said it was all a sham, and religions were effectively ended.

Given human nature, would that lead to more or less violence and unrest? On one hand, you wouldn't have people thinking their suicide killings would be rewarded in an afterlife. But on the other hand, how would millions here and billions around the world cope with the realization that this is all they have and there isn't a heaven to dream about? I'd imagine they would demand more from their current life and wouldn't be satisfied being told to suffer now and God will take care of you later.

There is a lot of truth here, and you honestly don't need religion to convince people to go suicide bombing. I'm pretty sure the Japanese kamikaze pilots did not believe in an afterlife with virgins. They were driven by nationalism and if you eliminate religion, well then nationalism is still a thing and many people will gladly die for it.

Heck, by the time they turned to kamikaze's they had effectively lost the war yet they still sent thousands on such missions.

Remove religion and something else will fill that void, whether it is the state or some charismatic leader, and yes when you have those followers you can weaponize them for your cause. We as a species are drawn to follow a leader and instead of clergymen, it will be something else.


The Japanese believed the Emperor was a god. That was a state sponsored religion. And there are many people that do fine without anything to "fill the void" without religion.

To say we can't live without some system of lies to keep us content is pure speculation. Technology is transforming how we communicate, and what we place meaning in. Who knows what we will come-up with to make us all more interconnected - without all the myths, legends, contradictions and lies necessary for religion.
That is exactly my point, remove religion and something else will fill the void for the people who would otherwise be religious. As for technology spreading knowledge, you have way too much faith in humanity if you think it's only going to enlighten people. I give you Alex Jones on the right and the rise of the anti-vaxxers on the left. face it, technology will spread myths and misinformation plenty. People will be weaponized for causes by charismatic leaders just as easily.

We are a species of followers and religion's demise would not change that.


I think you underestimate the power of religion, and overestimate the power of Alex Jones. Yes there will be crackpots, but it's still far better than billions of people thinking this is just a practice run for the real party.


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:13 pm 
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I'm not saying that if religion were gone, something wouldn't fill its void. But - as WFR said - isn't that just speculation at this point? Do you have any evidence to support your assertion?

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:15 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
I'm not saying that if religion were gone, something wouldn't fill its void. But - as WFR said - isn't that just speculation at this point? Do you have any evidence to support your assertion?

I'd point to civilizations where religion was done away with, the state has always come and filled that void. Instead of being religious fanatics the people become nationalistic fanatics.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:16 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
The two worlds being at each other's throats for over a century theory is simplistic. Several scholars have thoroughly dismantled the Huntington thesis and it's really not quite difficult to do. As just one example you can take a look at the transmission of philosophical works on logic and other works like in medicine that are indebted to all the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim fingers that laid hands on them. This all happened in parallel with the wars that are typical of the middle ages. Of course different groups of different religions warred with each other, but they also warred amongst themselves. That has more to do with the decentralized nature of political organization before the rise of centralized nation-states in the 1900s than it has anything to do with uniform religious bodies warring against others of a different religious persuasion. You can take the African slave trade as an example where Africans sold fellow Africans, including Muslims and Christians, into slavery to Western traders. If you subscribe to the Huntington thesis then this is an impossibility because the nature of relationships between different polities is clear-cut: the Africans would never help the "enemy," especially by selling their own into slavery to make a profit. That did obviously happen, as did several thousand other events that complicate this false dichotomy. The us vs them thesis is a more simplified take on events that is easy to understand but ultimately wrong when forwarded as a general explanation of the last 1000 plus years.



Exactly. While all of these wars against Christianity were occurring Muslims were also warring with other Muslims and enslaving Muslims. When I was growing up all you ever heard about was the evil Empire. When referring to the Evil Empire Islam was not so coincidentally omitted. Why? because we weren't at war with them and they weren't at war with us either. Iran didn't declare "death to America" because of religion. They declared death to America because of politics. The religious angle is convenient contemporary spin for which there isn't a right nor wrong answer. It has been used as justification because to debate based on morality is a losing proposition.

Again if it is primarily about religion then why hasn't Southeast Asia become involved in the conflict?


Last edited by long time guy on Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:16 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
That is exactly my point, remove religion and something else will fill the void for the people who would otherwise be religious. As for technology spreading knowledge, you have way too much faith in humanity if you think it's only going to enlighten people. I give you Alex Jones on the right and the rise of the anti-vaxxers on the left. face it, technology will spread myths and misinformation plenty. People will be weaponized for causes by charismatic leaders just as easily.

We are a species of followers and religion's demise would not change that.
You keep on saying this like it is a fact but it's pretty much constant that the removal of religion in policy making has resulted in increased freedom and less violence. It may not be perfect but it is pretty clear that removing religion from policy making has been a huge net positive at least in the past 500 years or so.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:17 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
I'm not saying that if religion were gone, something wouldn't fill its void. But - as WFR said - isn't that just speculation at this point? Do you have any evidence to support your assertion?

I'd point to civilizations where religion was done away with, the state has always come and filled that void. Instead of being religious fanatics the people become nationalistic fanatics.
Except you know, the country you live in right now.

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