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| Jemele Hill http://chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=108431 |
Page 14 of 19 |
| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
Terry's Peeps wrote: Is it possible for someone to be a racist and not be a white supremacist? Prejudice- I hate those people Racist- I hate those people and will use my power to keep them down Supremacist: My race is literally superior |
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| Author: | denisdman [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
Terry's Peeps wrote: Is it possible for someone to be a racist and not be a white supremacist? I think there is a difference. There is a certain level of activism in a supremacist, intimidation or violence, above an ordinary racist. |
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| Author: | Hatchetman [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
rogers park bryan wrote: [ But on the other hand overuse of the label doesn't = it doesn't exist... and a lot of people do act that way. somebody ought to write a fable about that. |
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| Author: | FavreFan [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
denisdman wrote: Terry's Peeps wrote: Is it possible for someone to be a racist and not be a white supremacist? I think there is a difference. There is a certain level of activism in a supremacist, intimidation or violence, above an ordinary racist. Agreed. |
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| Author: | Terry's Peeps [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
rogers park bryan wrote: Terry's Peeps wrote: Is it possible for someone to be a racist and not be a white supremacist? Prejudice- I hate those people Racist- I hate those people and will use my power to keep them down Supremacist: My race is literally superior So yes? |
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| Author: | Terry's Peeps [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
FavreFan wrote: denisdman wrote: Terry's Peeps wrote: Is it possible for someone to be a racist and not be a white supremacist? I think there is a difference. There is a certain level of activism in a supremacist, intimidation or violence, above an ordinary racist. Agreed.  Wasn't that what Bob said 7 pages ago? |
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| Author: | FavreFan [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
Terry's Peeps wrote: FavreFan wrote: denisdman wrote: Terry's Peeps wrote: Is it possible for someone to be a racist and not be a white supremacist? I think there is a difference. There is a certain level of activism in a supremacist, intimidation or violence, above an ordinary racist. Agreed. Wasn't that what Bob said 7 pages ago? Yes but then he went on to say Trump isn't that, completely contradicting himself. That's where half the debate in this entire thread lies. |
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| Author: | Terry's Peeps [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
FavreFan wrote: Terry's Peeps wrote: FavreFan wrote: denisdman wrote: Terry's Peeps wrote: Is it possible for someone to be a racist and not be a white supremacist? I think there is a difference. There is a certain level of activism in a supremacist, intimidation or violence, above an ordinary racist. Agreed. Wasn't that what Bob said 7 pages ago? Yes but then he went on to say Trump isn't that, completely contradicting himself. That's where half the debate in this entire thread lies. I like you Sally. |
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| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
FavreFan wrote: denisdman wrote: Terry's Peeps wrote: Is it possible for someone to be a racist and not be a white supremacist? I think there is a difference. There is a certain level of activism in a supremacist, intimidation or violence, above an ordinary racist. Agreed. Disagree. I can sit on my couch for 50 years believing the white race is superior. Im just a non violent supremacist. Ill concede that those that act on it are obviously far worse. But there's no way we can rationally say a person who believes the white race is superior is not a white supremacist. Going back to the actual definition, it's a belief, not an act. white su·prem·a·cy noun the belief that white people are superior to those of all other races, especially the black race, and should therefore dominate society. |
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| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
We all agree MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN was essentially code for MAKE AMERICA WHITE AGAIN, right? Or no? |
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| Author: | pittmike [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
Terry's Peeps wrote: FavreFan wrote: denisdman wrote: Terry's Peeps wrote: Is it possible for someone to be a racist and not be a white supremacist? I think there is a difference. There is a certain level of activism in a supremacist, intimidation or violence, above an ordinary racist. Agreed. Wasn't that what Bob said 7 pages ago? I knew what you were doing. I watched it grow like a little flower. Then BAM you brought it home.
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| Author: | denisdman [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
rogers park bryan wrote: denisdman wrote: The term racist was used and continues to be used so often that whites roll their eyes when they hear it. It is thrown around casually to describe every reason why minorities are disadvantaged. I used to be that guy. But on the other hand overuse of the label doesn't = it doesn't exist... and a lot of people do act that way. Yeap, we have a long way to go. I absolutely believe that certain groups get a raw deal in this country. But if the country keeps shouting folks down with the racist label, there will be a counter reaction aka Trump. There are places where that label is needed and appropriate. But when folks going around calling society racist, how can we even have a conversation? You already have hard left types talking about checking privilege. They don't even want to hear alternate opinions as is happening on university campuses. We can either have an intellectual adult conversation or we can keep Breitbart/Fox News shouting. Let's work on some of the underlying causes that are really hurting poor communities (applies to all races)- breakdown of the family, lack of skills for today's work force, a broken educational system, etc. |
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| Author: | pittmike [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
rogers park bryan wrote: We all agree MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN was essentially code for MAKE AMERICA WHITE AGAIN, right? Or no? Not necessarily. I think it meant many things. It meant protectionism to car makers, coal to miners, protectionism to others and even likely change to racists. |
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| Author: | Caller Bob [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
FavreFan wrote: Terry's Peeps wrote: FavreFan wrote: denisdman wrote: Terry's Peeps wrote: Is it possible for someone to be a racist and not be a white supremacist? I think there is a difference. There is a certain level of activism in a supremacist, intimidation or violence, above an ordinary racist. Agreed. Wasn't that what Bob said 7 pages ago? Yes but then he went on to say Trump isn't that, completely contradicting himself. That's where half the debate in this entire thread lies. "I agreed with Bob before I disagreed with him" Now who sounds like John Kerry? |
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| Author: | denisdman [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
rogers park bryan wrote: We all agree MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN was essentially code for MAKE AMERICA WHITE AGAIN, right? Or no? Honestly, it was appeal to blue collar older and left behind America. Trump knew he wasn't going to do well with educated classes. He went all in on rust belt union guys. I am a life long Republican, and I would have voted for Hillary before voting for Trump. I am a lay-up vote (and I have two votes remember) for Trump.. Not a single person in my social circle at work (all Repubs) voted for Trump. We all went Kasich or Rubio in the primaries. Many wrote in Paul Ryan on election day. |
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| Author: | long time guy [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
I think it is relative to the particular region you're addressing more than anything. The connotation is different. When i think of supremacists I think of people from rural areas. Probably moreso because the word has historically been used in conjunction with the KKK. When I think of supremacists I've never conceived that they could hail from urban areas. Trump fits this particular description. He hails from Queens which disqualifies him as a white supremacist based upon the intuitive way I have tended to view the term. |
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| Author: | denisdman [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
long time guy wrote: I think it is relative to the particular region you're addressing more than anything. The connotation is different. When i think of supremacists I think of people from rural areas. Probably moreso because the word has historically been used in conjunction with the KKK. When I think of supremacists I've never conceived that they could hail from urban areas. Trump fits this particular description. He hails from Queens which disqualifies him as a white supremacist based upon the intuitive way I have tended to view the term. LTG, I'd be curious on your thoughts about the differences, if any, between the terms prejudice, racist and supremacist. I view them quite differently as I outlined. |
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| Author: | veganfan21 [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
leashyourkids wrote: FavreFan wrote: I think leash's argument that people claim others are racist too often is correct(I'll even concede I'm part of that problem sometime). He is absolutely incorrect to use that argument to in any way defend Donald Trump. Donald Trump isn't just incompetent. Donald Trump is a white man with a racist ideology that he's displayed with his public actions and rhetoric on numerous occasions. I don't believe my last sentence is disputable. And he is the fucking President of the United States so any talk trying to differentiate between racist and supremacist based on power is invalidated. But this is also a difference in perception that I argue about with MANY people. I am a big fan of Hanlon's Razor... "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance." MANY of you give way too much credit to others. A woman I work with and am good friends with is like that. She always thinks everyone is up to something or trying to pull one over on her. I always tell her, "No, they're just stupid." I feel this way about Trump. I think most of his statements are attributable to his idiocy. If that makes me some sort of Trump apologist, then our political discourse in this country has gone way off the rails. Totally get this but then there's also the experience factor. We can have objective discussions about racism or bigotry or whatever, but racism and bigotry are also (and obviously) experiential things. Just to take an easy example, sure, two non-Mexicans can have a debate about Trump's campaign announcement press conference back in 2015 to determine whether or not the generalization of them as murderers, rapists, etc., and the caveat of some of them, he assumes, being good people is racist. Maybe one of these people will say Trump wasn't being racist because he's not a talented orator, and he was just being clumsy with words, and he was just awkwardly pandering to his base, etc, and that there's no way he actually believes the things he either said or implied about Mexicans. And then the other guy might just go nuclear and say he's undoubtedly racist in the same reactionary manner some of us are criticizing in this thread, and that if you defend him then you're a racist too or an apologist for racism at the very least. I think what gets lost in these sorts of debates is the experiential thing. These non-Mexicans experience Trump's comments intellectually, and then rationally discuss whether or not these comments are racist. But for someone directly impacted by these comments, i.e. a Mexican, the experience of hearing the comments typically activates more emotional responses that others sometimes may or may not share, and in that emotion the charge of racism arises. Does that mean that if someone subjectively experiences "racism" then that means the experience was automatically a "racist" one? Not always, but it's a tricky exercise when trying to answer that question, especially if you're not directly impacted by that experience. If I was Mexican in that situation I guess my first reaction would obviously be defensive, and I'd probably think "fuck you, asshole, we're not rapists and murderers," and I might think he's ignorant if he really thinks that way, but I don't know if I'd say he's racist. Tell you what, though, after that experience I certainly would be sympathetic to arguments labeling him as a racist, and I certainly wouldn't be in a rush to side with commentators who would try to explain his performance as clumsy or awkward but not racist, or whatever. Not saying it's all correct, but I think many who go with the nuclear option a lot by calling people racists do so because they may see how groups called out by Trump or whomever react, and then that reaction informs their own perspective on whatever comment, rightly or wrongly. On the flip side, it may be that those who would say the Mexican in my example is overreacting to a clumsily delivered remark by Trump, or whatever, just haven't been able to empathize with that Mexican, and try to see things from their perspective. |
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| Author: | Joe Orr Road Rod [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
long time guy wrote: I think it is relative to the particular region you're addressing more than anything. The connotation is different. When i think of supremacists I think of people from rural areas. Probably moreso because the word has historically been used in conjunction with the KKK. When I think of supremacists I've never conceived that they could hail from urban areas. Trump fits this particular description. He hails from Queens which disqualifies him as a white supremacist based upon the intuitive way I have tended to view the term. Queens is rural, man. It's like Schaumburg. |
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| Author: | denisdman [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: long time guy wrote: I think it is relative to the particular region you're addressing more than anything. The connotation is different. When i think of supremacists I think of people from rural areas. Probably moreso because the word has historically been used in conjunction with the KKK. When I think of supremacists I've never conceived that they could hail from urban areas. Trump fits this particular description. He hails from Queens which disqualifies him as a white supremacist based upon the intuitive way I have tended to view the term. Queens is rural, man. It's like Schaumburg. LOL, much more like an inner ring suburb. Closer to a Rosemont or Schiller Park especially with the whole airport thingy, LGA. |
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| Author: | Caller Bob [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: long time guy wrote: I think it is relative to the particular region you're addressing more than anything. The connotation is different. When i think of supremacists I think of people from rural areas. Probably moreso because the word has historically been used in conjunction with the KKK. When I think of supremacists I've never conceived that they could hail from urban areas. Trump fits this particular description. He hails from Queens which disqualifies him as a white supremacist based upon the intuitive way I have tended to view the term. Queens is rural, man. It's like Schaumburg. The "chincy" side (near Mt Prospect) of Schaumburg. Not the nice Schaumburg |
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| Author: | IMU [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
Caller Bob wrote: I'm guessing every person on this board had a parent/grandparent/aunt/uncle that thought like this. People that say otherwise are full of shit. Yes, and they are all shitty. |
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| Author: | Caller Bob [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
IMU wrote: Caller Bob wrote: I'm guessing every person on this board had a parent/grandparent/aunt/uncle that thought like this. People that say otherwise are full of shit. Yes, and they are all shitty. Are you going to "Dox" all of them too? |
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| Author: | IMU [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
leashyourkids wrote: rogers park bryan wrote: Caller Bob wrote: rogers park bryan wrote: I don't want to overstate this, but Caller Bob and Leash are the reason racism is still alive and well in America. With all due respect RPB, get fucked with that comment. Why the respect? Cause Im white? Seriously though, excuses for racism need to die out. Seriously though, I wouldn't take you as someone who would be that simplistic about such a complex topic. Pro-Racism Tagline "Acceptable Due to Complexity" |
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| Author: | denisdman [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
Speaking of Queens, we took in a Cubs/Mets game at Citi Field a couple of years ago. We stayed within walking distance of the park. As we were walking down the sidewalk, I saw a cute little cat on the sidewalk. I took a quick photo and sent it to my daughter, the animal lover. I named the cat "Queenie". After lunch we walked back to the hotel, maybe an hour later. That same cat was laying under the same tree. It was stiff as a board. I sent my wife a text, "Queenie is dead. Queenie is dead." 
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| Author: | long time guy [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
denisdman wrote: long time guy wrote: I think it is relative to the particular region you're addressing more than anything. The connotation is different. When i think of supremacists I think of people from rural areas. Probably moreso because the word has historically been used in conjunction with the KKK. When I think of supremacists I've never conceived that they could hail from urban areas. Trump fits this particular description. He hails from Queens which disqualifies him as a white supremacist based upon the intuitive way I have tended to view the term. LTG, I'd be curious on your thoughts about the differences, if any, between the terms prejudice, racist and supremacist. I view them quite differently as I outlined. Prejudice pertains to one's belief system. We all hold prejudices. Racism pertains to prejudice and access denial. Supremacy pertains to prejudice, racism, and domination. Racism and Supremacy are similar but not quite the same. Supremacy is elevated because supremacists seek to deny the existence of others. Supremacists seek the eradication of those that are not like them. Racists don't. Racists do not wish to wipe out others. They don't seek to interact with people of other races and ethnicities. They also do not want them to acquire power. Racists aren't necessarily uncomfortable with the existence of other groups. Supremacists are however. |
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| Author: | Caller Bob [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
long time guy wrote: denisdman wrote: long time guy wrote: I think it is relative to the particular region you're addressing more than anything. The connotation is different. When i think of supremacists I think of people from rural areas. Probably moreso because the word has historically been used in conjunction with the KKK. When I think of supremacists I've never conceived that they could hail from urban areas. Trump fits this particular description. He hails from Queens which disqualifies him as a white supremacist based upon the intuitive way I have tended to view the term. LTG, I'd be curious on your thoughts about the differences, if any, between the terms prejudice, racist and supremacist. I view them quite differently as I outlined. Prejudice pertains to one's belief system. We all hold prejudices. Racism pertains to prejudice and access denial. Supremacy pertains to prejudice, racism, and domination. Racism and Supremacy are similar but not quite the same. Supremacy is elevated because supremacists seek to deny the existence of others. Supremacists seek the eradication of those that are not like them. Racists don't. Racists do not wish to wipe out others they simply do not want people of other races and ethnicities around him. They also do not want them to acquire power. Racists aren't necessarily uncomfortable with the existence of other groups. Supremacists are. That's a solid analysis LTG. FF and RPB, when you are left of LTG, I think it's time to do some serious self evaluation. |
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| Author: | pittmike [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
long time guy wrote: denisdman wrote: long time guy wrote: I think it is relative to the particular region you're addressing more than anything. The connotation is different. When i think of supremacists I think of people from rural areas. Probably moreso because the word has historically been used in conjunction with the KKK. When I think of supremacists I've never conceived that they could hail from urban areas. Trump fits this particular description. He hails from Queens which disqualifies him as a white supremacist based upon the intuitive way I have tended to view the term. LTG, I'd be curious on your thoughts about the differences, if any, between the terms prejudice, racist and supremacist. I view them quite differently as I outlined. Prejudice pertains to one's belief system. We all hold prejudices. Racism pertains to prejudice and access denial. Supremacy pertains to prejudice, racism, and domination. Racism and Supremacy are similar but not quite the same. Supremacy is elevated because supremacists seek to deny the existence of others. Supremacists seek the eradication of those that are not like them. Racists don't. Racists do not wish to wipe out others. They don't seek to interact with people of other races and ethnicities. They also do not want them to acquire power. Racists aren't necessarily uncomfortable with the existence of other groups. Supremacists are however. See me and LTG can agree on things. |
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| Author: | denisdman [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
long time guy wrote: denisdman wrote: long time guy wrote: I think it is relative to the particular region you're addressing more than anything. The connotation is different. When i think of supremacists I think of people from rural areas. Probably moreso because the word has historically been used in conjunction with the KKK. When I think of supremacists I've never conceived that they could hail from urban areas. Trump fits this particular description. He hails from Queens which disqualifies him as a white supremacist based upon the intuitive way I have tended to view the term. LTG, I'd be curious on your thoughts about the differences, if any, between the terms prejudice, racist and supremacist. I view them quite differently as I outlined. Prejudice pertains to one's belief system. We all hold prejudices. Racism pertains to prejudice and access denial. Supremacy pertains to prejudice, racism, and domination. Racism and Supremacy are similar but not quite the same. Supremacy is elevated because supremacists seek to deny the existence of others. Supremacists seek the eradication of those that are not like them. Racists don't. Racists do not wish to wipe out others. They don't seek to interact with people of other races and ethnicities. They also do not want them to acquire power. Racists aren't necessarily uncomfortable with the existence of other groups. Supremacists are however. Well I think we agree then based on my definitions earlier. I am glad that others believe there is a distinction. |
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| Author: | Terry's Peeps [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Jemele Hill |
long time guy wrote: denisdman wrote: long time guy wrote: I think it is relative to the particular region you're addressing more than anything. The connotation is different. When i think of supremacists I think of people from rural areas. Probably moreso because the word has historically been used in conjunction with the KKK. When I think of supremacists I've never conceived that they could hail from urban areas. Trump fits this particular description. He hails from Queens which disqualifies him as a white supremacist based upon the intuitive way I have tended to view the term. LTG, I'd be curious on your thoughts about the differences, if any, between the terms prejudice, racist and supremacist. I view them quite differently as I outlined. Prejudice pertains to one's belief system. We all hold prejudices. Racism pertains to prejudice and access denial. Supremacy pertains to prejudice, racism, and domination. Racism and Supremacy are similar but not quite the same. Supremacy is elevated because supremacists seek to deny the existence of others. Supremacists seek the eradication of those that are not like them. Racists don't. Racists do not wish to wipe out others. They don't seek to interact with people of other races and ethnicities. They also do not want them to acquire power. Racists aren't necessarily uncomfortable with the existence of other groups. Supremacists are however. One of the good ones. |
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