It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:28 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 418 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:39 pm
Posts: 19521
pizza_Place: Lou Malnati's
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
long time guy wrote:

I could easily state that GW was an Islamophobe and a Christian fanatic. After all Chriistianity was the guiding force in his life and he started two wars in Islamic countries.

that is most likely a true statement.



I would never use the fake word "Islamophobe", but I'd agree that it's possible that Bush may be a Christian fanatic. That's a far cry from making Christian evangelism a pillar of U.S. foreign policy.


Where in the Bible does it call for a Jihad on infidels?

_________________
Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

The Missing Link wrote:
For instance they were never taught that Columbus was a slave owner.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:10 am
Posts: 31948
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
long time guy wrote:

I could easily state that GW was an Islamophobe and a Christian fanatic. After all Chriistianity was the guiding force in his life and he started two wars in Islamic countries.

that is most likely a true statement.



I would never use the fake word "Islamophobe", but I'd agree that it's possible that Bush may be a Christian fanatic. That's a far cry from making Christian evangelism a pillar of U.S. foreign policy.


If you look at what he did in Iraq and Afghanistan you could easily make the argument that he viewed each as a sort of Christian missionary assignment. Schools politics economics etc. He thought that he was bringing civilization to them. Remember when spoke of bringing democracy to them by providing candy. What about winning the hearts and minds and Western styled democracy?

If you look at N.Korea the issue is similar. U.S. meddling in a distant part of the world. I guess I can be a bit isolationist but I just think that countries have a right to establish whatever Govt that they choose and it's up to the citizens of said country to resist or revolt.

_________________
The Hawk wrote:
This is going to reach a head pretty soon.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:39 pm
Posts: 19521
pizza_Place: Lou Malnati's
long time guy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
long time guy wrote:

I could easily state that GW was an Islamophobe and a Christian fanatic. After all Chriistianity was the guiding force in his life and he started two wars in Islamic countries.

that is most likely a true statement.



I would never use the fake word "Islamophobe", but I'd agree that it's possible that Bush may be a Christian fanatic. That's a far cry from making Christian evangelism a pillar of U.S. foreign policy.


If you look at what he did in Iraq and Afghanistan you could easily make the argument that he viewed each as a sort of Christian missionary assignment. Schools politics economics etc. He thought that he was bringing civilization to them. Remember when spoke of bringing democracy to them by providing candy. What about winning the hearts and minds and Western styled democracy?

If you look at N.Korea the issue is similar. U.S. meddling in a distant part of the world. I guess I can be a bit isolationist but I just think that countries have a right to establish whatever Govt that they choose and it's up to the citizens of said country to resist or revolt.


Not remotely similar to Bin Laden.

Bush on Islam:

Quote:
The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war.


Compare that to Bin Laden speaking about other religions.

This is not to say that Bush did not wildly mismanage it, or that he should not have invaded Iraq, but wouldn't a democracy be better for all involved- rather than a theocratic state in a constant state of civil war over different interpretations of the Koran?

Bush might not have understood how much these groups hated each other, but he did not tell them fight out their differences. That's were most of the casualties in Iraq have come from.

_________________
Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

The Missing Link wrote:
For instance they were never taught that Columbus was a slave owner.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:10 am
Posts: 31948
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
long time guy wrote:

I could easily state that GW was an Islamophobe and a Christian fanatic. After all Chriistianity was the guiding force in his life and he started two wars in Islamic countries.

that is most likely a true statement.



I would never use the fake word "Islamophobe", but I'd agree that it's possible that Bush may be a Christian fanatic. That's a far cry from making Christian evangelism a pillar of U.S. foreign policy.


If you look at what he did in Iraq and Afghanistan you could easily make the argument that he viewed each as a sort of Christian missionary assignment. Schools politics economics etc. He thought that he was bringing civilization to them. Remember when spoke of bringing democracy to them by providing candy. What about winning the hearts and minds and Western styled democracy?

If you look at N.Korea the issue is similar. U.S. meddling in a distant part of the world. I guess I can be a bit isolationist but I just think that countries have a right to establish whatever Govt that they choose and it's up to the citizens of said country to resist or revolt.


Not remotely similar to Bin Laden.

Bush on Islam:

Quote:
The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war.


Compare that to Bin Laden speaking about other religions.

This is not to say that Bush did not wildly mismanage it, or that he should not have invaded Iraq, but wouldn't a democracy be better for all involved- rather than a theocratic state in a constant state of civil war over different interpretations of the Koran?

Bush might not have understood how much these groups hated each other, but he did not tell them fight out their differences. That's were most of the casualties in Iraq have come from.



Here is the thing with Iraq. It wasn't theocratic. Hussein was a dictator but Iraq wasn't nowhere near being subjected to Shariah law. For all his faults Hussein wasn't a fundamentalist.

As far Bin Laden there was a phrase in there where he showed respects to all the prophets. I'm not defending the guy but I think we need to examine US role as interventionist and arbiter of international conflict.

_________________
The Hawk wrote:
This is going to reach a head pretty soon.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:10 am
Posts: 31948
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
long time guy wrote:

I could easily state that GW was an Islamophobe and a Christian fanatic. After all Chriistianity was the guiding force in his life and he started two wars in Islamic countries.

that is most likely a true statement.



I would never use the fake word "Islamophobe", but I'd agree that it's possible that Bush may be a Christian fanatic. That's a far cry from making Christian evangelism a pillar of U.S. foreign policy.


If you look at what he did in Iraq and Afghanistan you could easily make the argument that he viewed each as a sort of Christian missionary assignment. Schools politics economics etc. He thought that he was bringing civilization to them. Remember when spoke of bringing democracy to them by providing candy. What about winning the hearts and minds and Western styled democracy?

If you look at N.Korea the issue is similar. U.S. meddling in a distant part of the world. I guess I can be a bit isolationist but I just think that countries have a right to establish whatever Govt that they choose and it's up to the citizens of said country to resist or revolt.


Not remotely similar to Bin Laden.

Bush on Islam:

Quote:
The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war.


Compare that to Bin Laden speaking about other religions.

This is not to say that Bush did not wildly mismanage it, or that he should not have invaded Iraq, but wouldn't a democracy be better for all involved- rather than a theocratic state in a constant state of civil war over different interpretations of the Koran?

Bush might not have understood how much these groups hated each other, but he did not tell them fight out their differences. That's were most of the casualties in Iraq have come from.



Here is the thing with Iraq. It wasn't theocratic. Hussein was a dictator but Iraq wasn't nowhere near being subjected to Shariah law. For all his faults Hussein wasn't a fundamentalist.

As far Bin Laden there was a phrase in there where he showed respects to all the prophets. I'm not defending the guy but I think we need to examine US role as interventionist and arbiter of international conflict.

_________________
The Hawk wrote:
This is going to reach a head pretty soon.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:26 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 76667
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
long time guy wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
City of Fools wrote:
long time guy wrote:

I could easily state that GW was an Islamophobe and a Christian fanatic. After all Chriistianity was the guiding force in his life and he started two wars in Islamic countries.

that is most likely a true statement.



I would never use the fake word "Islamophobe", but I'd agree that it's possible that Bush may be a Christian fanatic. That's a far cry from making Christian evangelism a pillar of U.S. foreign policy.


If you look at what he did in Iraq and Afghanistan you could easily make the argument that he viewed each as a sort of Christian missionary assignment. Schools politics economics etc. He thought that he was bringing civilization to them. Remember when spoke of bringing democracy to them by providing candy. What about winning the hearts and minds and Western styled democracy?

If you look at N.Korea the issue is similar. U.S. meddling in a distant part of the world. I guess I can be a bit isolationist but I just think that countries have a right to establish whatever Govt that they choose and it's up to the citizens of said country to resist or revolt.


Not remotely similar to Bin Laden.

Bush on Islam:

Quote:
The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war.


Compare that to Bin Laden speaking about other religions.

This is not to say that Bush did not wildly mismanage it, or that he should not have invaded Iraq, but wouldn't a democracy be better for all involved- rather than a theocratic state in a constant state of civil war over different interpretations of the Koran?

Bush might not have understood how much these groups hated each other, but he did not tell them fight out their differences. That's were most of the casualties in Iraq have come from.



Here is the thing with Iraq. It wasn't theocratic. Hussein was a dictator but Iraq wasn't nowhere near being subjected to Shariah law. For all his faults Hussein wasn't a fundamentalist.

As far Bin Laden there was a phrase in there where he showed respects to all the prophets. I'm not defending the guy but I think we need to examine US role as interventionist and arbiter of international conflict.


That's great in theory but if the U.S. abdicates that role, well you can see what's happening in Syria. I hardly think that makes the world a better place.

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:29 pm
Posts: 54158
Location: Pearl Harbor, Waukesha, and other things that make no sense
pizza_Place: Lou Malnati's
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
LTG keeps using the term "Palestinian" in an incorrect way. The idea of "Palestinians" as a nation wasn't created until the 60s as a cudgel with which to hammer Jews. In 1945 all the Jews and Arabs who lived within the territory of the British Mandate were "Palestinians".

Palestinian Arabs were proudly Syrians.

_________________
Molly Lambert wrote:
The future holds the possibility to be great or terrible, and since it has not yet occurred it remains simultaneously both.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:55 pm
Posts: 31935
Location: Wrigley
pizza_Place: Warren Buffet of Cock
We've really had the test of both the activist and passive Middle East policies in our lifetimes. Iraq is a classic case of America intervening even where it wasn't needed and being a total disaster. Then we have Syria where we've largely stayed on the sidelines with only modest help to proxies, and it has been a total disaster.

We also had a "righteous" intervention in Afghanistan which has only been a partial disaster.

There are problems we cannot fix despite our war machine. I'd prefer the Syrian path so the guns aren't trained on our marines and the costs aren't paid by our taxpayers. At best, Syria could have a government that looks like Lebanon's where the spoils of government are split among the varying sects by law. But Syria has mostly Sunni's while being ruled by Shia's. Lebanon is more equaled divided by the three main religions.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 88693
Location: To the left of my post
Curious Hair wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
LTG keeps using the term "Palestinian" in an incorrect way. The idea of "Palestinians" as a nation wasn't created until the 60s as a cudgel with which to hammer Jews. In 1945 all the Jews and Arabs who lived within the territory of the British Mandate were "Palestinians".

Palestinian Arabs were proudly Syrians.
It will be interesting to see what 'new' Arab group pops up in Israel when Palestine becomes a country.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:10 am
Posts: 31948
Did US actions make Iraq a better place? What about Vietnam? How about Iran? It's kind of mixed bag with that. The US has also aligned themselves with many of the same types of people that we criticize. Northern Alliance is but one of the more recent examples of this. In today's world I think it difficult to be completely isolated but I do think that we can extricate ourselves from the inner workings of foreign Govts if we choose. We have left human rights violators China and Saudi Arabia alone for the most part. It's doable.

_________________
The Hawk wrote:
This is going to reach a head pretty soon.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:55 pm
Posts: 31935
Location: Wrigley
pizza_Place: Warren Buffet of Cock
The druze you guys. Why doesn't anyone ever talk about the druze?

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:55 pm
Posts: 31935
Location: Wrigley
pizza_Place: Warren Buffet of Cock
long time guy wrote:
Did US actions make Iraq a better place? What about Vietnam? How about Iran? It's kind of mixed bag with that. The US has also aligned themselves with many of the same types of people that we criticize. Northern Alliance is but one of the more recent examples of this. In today's world I think it difficult to be completely isolated but I do think that we can extricate ourselves from the inner workings of foreign Govts if we choose. We have left human rights violators China and Saudi Arabia alone for the most part. It's doable.


Well you are right that there is a ton of hypocrisy in U.S. foreign policy. We can't right all the world's wrongs, and I don't think we should try. I'd prefer to lead by example with adherence to the rule of law and good government. Alas, that isn't going to happen.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:29 pm
Posts: 54158
Location: Pearl Harbor, Waukesha, and other things that make no sense
pizza_Place: Lou Malnati's
denisdman wrote:
The druze you guys. Why doesn't anyone ever talk about the druze?

The Druze and the Samaritans don't bother anyone.

_________________
Molly Lambert wrote:
The future holds the possibility to be great or terrible, and since it has not yet occurred it remains simultaneously both.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:24 pm
Posts: 16901
pizza_Place: Pequods
Curious Hair wrote:
denisdman wrote:
The druze you guys. Why doesn't anyone ever talk about the druze?

The Druze and the Samaritans don't bother anyone.

The Druze just live their lives, vote, and are hilariously sometimes more pro-Israel than me. :lol:

_________________
“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:50 pm
Posts: 16052
pizza_Place: Malnati's
denisdman wrote:
We've really had the test of both the activist and passive Middle East policies in our lifetimes. Iraq is a classic case of America intervening even where it wasn't needed and being a total disaster. Then we have Syria where we've largely stayed on the sidelines with only modest help to proxies, and it has been a total disaster.

We also had a "righteous" intervention in Afghanistan which has only been a partial disaster.

There are problems we cannot fix despite our war machine. I'd prefer the Syrian path so the guns aren't trained on our marines and the costs aren't paid by our taxpayers. At best, Syria could have a government that looks like Lebanon's where the spoils of government are split among the varying sects by law. But Syria has mostly Sunni's while being ruled by Shia's. Lebanon is more equaled divided by the three main religions.


That's a key difference though that people disingenuously omit when critiquing Obama's foreign policy. Syria is a disaster but Obama didn't put the burden of fixing or preempting that mess on the U.S taxpayer. On one hand you have guys saying we shouldn't be the world's policeman, but when Obama did just that in Syria, the same guys are criticizing him for holding off. Then they turn around and vote for Trump because he doesn't want to be the world's policeman.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:55 pm
Posts: 31935
Location: Wrigley
pizza_Place: Warren Buffet of Cock
Ogie, you ever throw the Berbers some love?

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:59 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 76667
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
veganfan21 wrote:
denisdman wrote:
We've really had the test of both the activist and passive Middle East policies in our lifetimes. Iraq is a classic case of America intervening even where it wasn't needed and being a total disaster. Then we have Syria where we've largely stayed on the sidelines with only modest help to proxies, and it has been a total disaster.

We also had a "righteous" intervention in Afghanistan which has only been a partial disaster.

There are problems we cannot fix despite our war machine. I'd prefer the Syrian path so the guns aren't trained on our marines and the costs aren't paid by our taxpayers. At best, Syria could have a government that looks like Lebanon's where the spoils of government are split among the varying sects by law. But Syria has mostly Sunni's while being ruled by Shia's. Lebanon is more equaled divided by the three main religions.


That's a key difference though that people disingenuously omit when critiquing Obama's foreign policy. Syria is a disaster but Obama didn't put the burden of fixing or preempting that mess on the U.S taxpayer. On one hand you have guys saying we shouldn't be the world's policeman, but when Obama did just that in Syria, the same guys are criticizing him for holding off. Then they turn around and vote for Trump because he doesn't want to be the world's policeman.


I'm not criticizing Bush or Obama or Trump on foreign policy because I just really don't know enough, but one thing I'm almost certain about is that Iranian hegemony in the Middle East isn't good for anyone.

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:22 am
Posts: 15018
pizza_Place: Wha Happen?
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
long time guy wrote:


1. I understand that Jewish people have lived in that area for centuries but they were a minority in that region as of 1945. Palestinians outnumbered them by a wide margin. Jewish population was due to vast migration that occurred after WWII.

2. Zionism has been portrayed as this universally held theory that dates back centuries. It is in fact a theory contrived by a guy that believed in the supremacy of Jewish people and the subjugation of Palestinians. The motives behind this theory weren't altruistic either. Proponents of it openly advocated for the destruction of Palestinian people.

3. The land awarded as a result of partition was not equitable in terms of distribution. The majority of land was to be distributed to Jewish immigrants even though Palestinians comprised 65-70% of the population.

At the time Israel was created plans which called for the creation of Palestine were rebuffed.

1: No, the Palestinians in fact were not a majority in the land granted by partition. The lands granted in partition were lands that were significantly a majority Jewish. I already explained why partition was the only option and 1 state for 2 peoples would not work. It could've worked pre-1920, but then the Arabs living there embraced Haj Amin Al-Hussseini and started to attack the Jews. FYI, he would've been the leader of the Arab state so are you rally suggesting in 1948 the Jews should've been put under the control of a radical leader who embraced and met with Hitler hoping he could aid Hilter's final solution had the British not stopped the Germans cold at El-Alamein? That is exactly what you're proposing when you are saying the Jews should've been living in an Arab state in 1948.

Without the Mufti and the violence he started in the 20s, you could argue for 1 state, but he set events into motion that made this impossible and then ran off to ally himself with Hitler as he saw they shared a common enemy in the Jewish people.

2: Zionism as the simple idea that the Jewish people should have a home as it was clear they were not safe anywhere else. Herzl was an atheist who had no racial views. He was a journalist who believed himself to be assimilated until he saw what happened to Dreyfus and realized that if Jews were not safe (living as an assimilated people) in enlightened France, then they were not safe anywhere. I'd say his fears became prophetic 50 years later when 2/3rds of European Jewry was wiped out. It was never based upon an idea the Jews were superior or on the destruction of the Palestinians. In fact, there really was no separate ethnicity known as the Palestinian people then. The Palestinian people as a separate ethnicity was born out in the 60s as before that they were Syrians, Egyptians, etc.

3: The majority of livable land (non-arid) was granted to the Palestinians. Over 60% of the land partitioned for Israel was the Negev, which was empty of all human development. The majority of the fertile land which was considered to be livable was granted to the Arabs.

is someone going to refute any of this? Or support it? I need a winner.

_________________
Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:55 pm
Posts: 31935
Location: Wrigley
pizza_Place: Warren Buffet of Cock
veganfan21 wrote:
denisdman wrote:
We've really had the test of both the activist and passive Middle East policies in our lifetimes. Iraq is a classic case of America intervening even where it wasn't needed and being a total disaster. Then we have Syria where we've largely stayed on the sidelines with only modest help to proxies, and it has been a total disaster.

We also had a "righteous" intervention in Afghanistan which has only been a partial disaster.

There are problems we cannot fix despite our war machine. I'd prefer the Syrian path so the guns aren't trained on our marines and the costs aren't paid by our taxpayers. At best, Syria could have a government that looks like Lebanon's where the spoils of government are split among the varying sects by law. But Syria has mostly Sunni's while being ruled by Shia's. Lebanon is more equaled divided by the three main religions.


That's a key difference though that people disingenuously omit when critiquing Obama's foreign policy. Syria is a disaster but Obama didn't put the burden of fixing or preempting that mess on the U.S taxpayer. On one hand you have guys saying we shouldn't be the world's policeman, but when Obama did just that in Syria, the same guys are criticizing him for holding off. Then they turn around and vote for Trump because he doesn't want to be the world's policeman.


I was pleased with the way Obama kept us out of Syria. And direct entanglement there brings in the Russians who are Assad's main benefactor. And if Assad goes, then you have Libya and Iraq all over again.

There are plenty of counterweights to Iran in the region. You're options of who to support are bad and worse. Look at Yemen.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:08 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 76667
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
denisdman wrote:
Your options of who to support are bad and worse.


Everyone should be able to agree on that.

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:36 pm
Posts: 16322
pizza_Place: Il Forno in Deerfield!
City of Fools wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
long time guy wrote:


1. I understand that Jewish people have lived in that area for centuries but they were a minority in that region as of 1945. Palestinians outnumbered them by a wide margin. Jewish population was due to vast migration that occurred after WWII.

2. Zionism has been portrayed as this universally held theory that dates back centuries. It is in fact a theory contrived by a guy that believed in the supremacy of Jewish people and the subjugation of Palestinians. The motives behind this theory weren't altruistic either. Proponents of it openly advocated for the destruction of Palestinian people.

3. The land awarded as a result of partition was not equitable in terms of distribution. The majority of land was to be distributed to Jewish immigrants even though Palestinians comprised 65-70% of the population.

At the time Israel was created plans which called for the creation of Palestine were rebuffed.

1: No, the Palestinians in fact were not a majority in the land granted by partition. The lands granted in partition were lands that were significantly a majority Jewish. I already explained why partition was the only option and 1 state for 2 peoples would not work. It could've worked pre-1920, but then the Arabs living there embraced Haj Amin Al-Hussseini and started to attack the Jews. FYI, he would've been the leader of the Arab state so are you rally suggesting in 1948 the Jews should've been put under the control of a radical leader who embraced and met with Hitler hoping he could aid Hilter's final solution had the British not stopped the Germans cold at El-Alamein? That is exactly what you're proposing when you are saying the Jews should've been living in an Arab state in 1948.

Without the Mufti and the violence he started in the 20s, you could argue for 1 state, but he set events into motion that made this impossible and then ran off to ally himself with Hitler as he saw they shared a common enemy in the Jewish people.

2: Zionism as the simple idea that the Jewish people should have a home as it was clear they were not safe anywhere else. Herzl was an atheist who had no racial views. He was a journalist who believed himself to be assimilated until he saw what happened to Dreyfus and realized that if Jews were not safe (living as an assimilated people) in enlightened France, then they were not safe anywhere. I'd say his fears became prophetic 50 years later when 2/3rds of European Jewry was wiped out. It was never based upon an idea the Jews were superior or on the destruction of the Palestinians. In fact, there really was no separate ethnicity known as the Palestinian people then. The Palestinian people as a separate ethnicity was born out in the 60s as before that they were Syrians, Egyptians, etc.

3: The majority of livable land (non-arid) was granted to the Palestinians. Over 60% of the land partitioned for Israel was the Negev, which was empty of all human development. The majority of the fertile land which was considered to be livable was granted to the Arabs.

is someone going to refute any of this? Or support it? I need a winner.


I support everything Ogie has posted. He knows his shit.

_________________
LTG wrote:
Trae Young will be a bust. Book It!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 88693
Location: To the left of my post
Yeah. Ogie is bringing it.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:50 pm
Posts: 16052
pizza_Place: Malnati's
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
denisdman wrote:
We've really had the test of both the activist and passive Middle East policies in our lifetimes. Iraq is a classic case of America intervening even where it wasn't needed and being a total disaster. Then we have Syria where we've largely stayed on the sidelines with only modest help to proxies, and it has been a total disaster.

We also had a "righteous" intervention in Afghanistan which has only been a partial disaster.

There are problems we cannot fix despite our war machine. I'd prefer the Syrian path so the guns aren't trained on our marines and the costs aren't paid by our taxpayers. At best, Syria could have a government that looks like Lebanon's where the spoils of government are split among the varying sects by law. But Syria has mostly Sunni's while being ruled by Shia's. Lebanon is more equaled divided by the three main religions.


That's a key difference though that people disingenuously omit when critiquing Obama's foreign policy. Syria is a disaster but Obama didn't put the burden of fixing or preempting that mess on the U.S taxpayer. On one hand you have guys saying we shouldn't be the world's policeman, but when Obama did just that in Syria, the same guys are criticizing him for holding off. Then they turn around and vote for Trump because he doesn't want to be the world's policeman.


I'm not criticizing Bush or Obama or Trump on foreign policy because I just really don't know enough, but one thing I'm almost certain about is that Iranian hegemony in the Middle East isn't good for anyone.


I don't know if Saudi hegemony would be better. And whatever hegemony is at play there, are we really concerned so as long as that shit stays away from our shores, and that trade and whatnot goes on unencumbered? Obama largely took the diplomatic route which was obviously risky when it came to Iran, but it seemed he hoped continued arms deals with the Saudis and Egypt would keep them in check. And he avoided another Iraq.

_________________
Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:54 pm
Posts: 17129
Location: in the vents of life for joey belle
pizza_Place: how many planets have a chicago?
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I'm not criticizing Bush or Obama or Trump on foreign policy because I just really don't know enough, but one thing I'm almost certain about is that Iranian hegemony in the Middle East isn't good for anyone.


Of course it isn't.... Iran is one of those countries that doesn't have a world Bank/IMF/red-shield/whatever, so you know it's right there with the other MOST EVIL COUNTRIES ON EARTH like north Korea, Syria, and uhhh there's not too many more left are there? Iraq and Libya were a couple longtime holdouts but we know how they turned out.... TLDR = you can only play 2pac's "me against the world" so many times before your record player breaks.

Obviously I'm oversimplifying this, and furthermore I know I'm out of line leaving the kiddie table to try and get the grown ups' attention (esp when I see that nowadays Curious Hair is literally bringing (((memes))) to the board so I don't even have my niche anymore) ---- HOWEVER

saying Israel IS this or Jews/Muslims/any-denomimation-of-ppl ARE that = an awfully slippery slope that gets you on a path where me and padme just can't follow you anymore, Anakin! Honestly what does the raison d'être of bin laden or Israel or Muslims or anyone have to do with our day to day lives? What does it matter what we think? Would we get spared from dying in a terrorist attack when a gunman takes aim at us because posting THE CORRECT ANSWERS on the C/S/FMB would make another guy grab Muhammad like "NO DONT SHOOT HIM, HE'S ONE OF THE GOOD ONES!!!" ???

I've always said that politics are basically sports for ppl who "care" --- and just like we can argue ad infinitum over what player/s we think are better, we can argue ad infinitum about the middle East.... And at the end of the day our opinions on the middle East are about as meaningful as our opinions on Jordan vs LeBron....

....even tho it's obviously m-jeff, duh. But I trust that all "my people" know that so it should go without saying, just like everyone's middle East thoughts ~5+ pages into the same ol argument that's been had on this board over 9000 times b4 --- (((memes))) amirite?

ALSO WE NEED MORE MILK AT THE KIDDIE TABLE THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!

_________________
Curious Hair wrote:
Les Grobstein's huge hog is proof that God has a sense of humor, isn't it?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:22 am
Posts: 15018
pizza_Place: Wha Happen?
City of Fools wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
long time guy wrote:


1. I understand that Jewish people have lived in that area for centuries but they were a minority in that region as of 1945. Palestinians outnumbered them by a wide margin. Jewish population was due to vast migration that occurred after WWII.

2. Zionism has been portrayed as this universally held theory that dates back centuries. It is in fact a theory contrived by a guy that believed in the supremacy of Jewish people and the subjugation of Palestinians. The motives behind this theory weren't altruistic either. Proponents of it openly advocated for the destruction of Palestinian people.

3. The land awarded as a result of partition was not equitable in terms of distribution. The majority of land was to be distributed to Jewish immigrants even though Palestinians comprised 65-70% of the population.

At the time Israel was created plans which called for the creation of Palestine were rebuffed.

1: No, the Palestinians in fact were not a majority in the land granted by partition. The lands granted in partition were lands that were significantly a majority Jewish. I already explained why partition was the only option and 1 state for 2 peoples would not work. It could've worked pre-1920, but then the Arabs living there embraced Haj Amin Al-Hussseini and started to attack the Jews. FYI, he would've been the leader of the Arab state so are you rally suggesting in 1948 the Jews should've been put under the control of a radical leader who embraced and met with Hitler hoping he could aid Hilter's final solution had the British not stopped the Germans cold at El-Alamein? That is exactly what you're proposing when you are saying the Jews should've been living in an Arab state in 1948.

Without the Mufti and the violence he started in the 20s, you could argue for 1 state, but he set events into motion that made this impossible and then ran off to ally himself with Hitler as he saw they shared a common enemy in the Jewish people.

2: Zionism as the simple idea that the Jewish people should have a home as it was clear they were not safe anywhere else. Herzl was an atheist who had no racial views. He was a journalist who believed himself to be assimilated until he saw what happened to Dreyfus and realized that if Jews were not safe (living as an assimilated people) in enlightened France, then they were not safe anywhere. I'd say his fears became prophetic 50 years later when 2/3rds of European Jewry was wiped out. It was never based upon an idea the Jews were superior or on the destruction of the Palestinians. In fact, there really was no separate ethnicity known as the Palestinian people then. The Palestinian people as a separate ethnicity was born out in the 60s as before that they were Syrians, Egyptians, etc.

3: The majority of livable land (non-arid) was granted to the Palestinians. Over 60% of the land partitioned for Israel was the Negev, which was empty of all human development. The majority of the fertile land which was considered to be livable was granted to the Arabs.

is someone going to refute any of this? Or support it? I need a winner.

ok, so two people say Ogie but does anyone have any actual factual info on the three things they disagree on?

_________________
Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:47 pm
Posts: 13380
Location: The far western part of south east North Dakota
pizza_Place: Boboli
I'm still wondering what this guy getting raped at a frat party has to do with North Korea & Israel?

_________________
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
I smell a bit....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:15 pm
Posts: 39746
Location: Small Fringe Minority
pizza_Place: John's
Ogie's soulmate?
http://coed.com/2017/06/24/kathy-dettwy ... -delaware/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Otto Warmbier
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:50 pm
Posts: 6721
pizza_Place: Parts Unknown
Ugueth Will Shiv You wrote:
This is a really weird thread.


This thread will lock, rock, jay hawk chawk fuck you up

_________________
Terry's Peeps wrote:
Have a terrible night and die in MANY fires.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 418 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group