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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Seems like something worth exploring-especially all the computer based trading. What value does that provide society?

Why not just tax profit/income? If I do a trade and lose money why do I get taxed?

Income from those trades is taxed, it's called capital gains. You get hit with the same tax if you sell a real estate property for a profit.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:33 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Seems like something worth exploring-especially all the computer based trading. What value does that provide society?

Why not just tax profit/income? If I do a trade and lose money why do I get taxed?

Income from those trades is taxed, it's called capital gains. You get hit with the same tax if you sell a real estate property for a profit.

I know. I'm asking why we need a tax on trades when that is sufficient.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:35 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Seems like something worth exploring-especially all the computer based trading. What value does that provide society?

Why not just tax profit/income? If I do a trade and lose money why do I get taxed?

Income from those trades is taxed, it's called capital gains. You get hit with the same tax if you sell a real estate property for a profit.

I know. I'm asking why we need a tax on trades when that is sufficient.

gotcha.

Also, such a tax on trades would kill retirement savings as most of those large volume trades are done by mutual funds on behalf of pensioners or IRAs that are invested into them.

That's one way to balloon costs of retirement savings and fuck people over for being responsible adults who are trying to build for retirement.

As it stands, the funds I invest in have costs of $5 per $10,000 invested (expense ratio 0.05%, which is common with index funds). That would rise sharply if each trade were taxed, especially on the actively managed funds which already have higher expense ratios.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:01 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Woodmans for us. Whole Foods is too expensive, and they don't build those high end stores in shitty areas like Dundee and Sleepy Hollow.


But famously (stupidly) they recently opened one in Englewood. Rahm & the alderman were there for the ground breaking and grand opening. :lol: :lol: :lol:



i went there a few weeks back....they have a security guard at the door wearing a bulletproof vest


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:28 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:44 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Seems like something worth exploring-especially all the computer based trading. What value does that provide society?

Why not just tax profit/income? If I do a trade and lose money why do I get taxed?

Income from those trades is taxed, it's called capital gains. You get hit with the same tax if you sell a real estate property for a profit.

I know. I'm asking why we need a tax on trades when that is sufficient.

gotcha.

Also, such a tax on trades would kill retirement savings as most of those large volume trades are done by mutual funds on behalf of pensioners or IRAs that are invested into them.

That's one way to balloon costs of retirement savings and fuck people over for being responsible adults who are trying to build for retirement.

As it stands, the funds I invest in have costs of $5 per $10,000 invested (expense ratio 0.05%, which is common with index funds). That would rise sharply if each trade were taxed, especially on the actively managed funds which already have higher expense ratios.


If an algorithm or AI program is making trades what value does that add to society?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:13 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Seems like something worth exploring-especially all the computer based trading. What value does that provide society?

Why not just tax profit/income? If I do a trade and lose money why do I get taxed?

Income from those trades is taxed, it's called capital gains. You get hit with the same tax if you sell a real estate property for a profit.

I know. I'm asking why we need a tax on trades when that is sufficient.

gotcha.

Also, such a tax on trades would kill retirement savings as most of those large volume trades are done by mutual funds on behalf of pensioners or IRAs that are invested into them.

That's one way to balloon costs of retirement savings and fuck people over for being responsible adults who are trying to build for retirement.

As it stands, the funds I invest in have costs of $5 per $10,000 invested (expense ratio 0.05%, which is common with index funds). That would rise sharply if each trade were taxed, especially on the actively managed funds which already have higher expense ratios.


If an algorithm or AI program is making trades what value does that add to society?

it improves the performance of the fund, which is primarily made up of a pool of capital from individual retirees who invested in it so that one day they can retire with dignity. We've gone over this before...

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:54 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
it improves the performance of the fund, which is primarily made up of a pool of capital from individual retirees who invested in it so that one day they can retire with dignity. We've gone over this before...


And you always go back to your story of saving for retirement, how great it is, and how smart you are. Private companies gaming the stock market with computer AI provides zero benefit to society.

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Why are only 14 percent of black CPS 11th-graders proficient in English?

The Missing Link wrote:
For instance they were never taught that Columbus was a slave owner.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:55 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Seems like something worth exploring-especially all the computer based trading. What value does that provide society?

Why not just tax profit/income? If I do a trade and lose money why do I get taxed?

Income from those trades is taxed, it's called capital gains. You get hit with the same tax if you sell a real estate property for a profit.

I know. I'm asking why we need a tax on trades when that is sufficient.


But your earlier post about distinguishing tax rates based on the investment period suggests it finally isn't.

And imo any mutual or pension fund churning millions of stocks like day traders aren't really investment firms in the classic sense of the phrase. They're gaming the system and represent some of what is wrong with our markets

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:58 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
it improves the performance of the fund, which is primarily made up of a pool of capital from individual retirees who invested in it so that one day they can retire with dignity. We've gone over this before...


And you always go back to your story of saving for retirement, how great it is, and how smart you are. Private companies gaming the stock market with computer AI provides zero benefit to society.

It's hardly gaming the market when they are making trades that grow funds that investors can buy into. I personally shy away from actively managed funds as I consider myself risk averse, but there are funds available on the market that you can buy into today that partake in this type of trading. They average 12% per year as ROI over their lifetime.

I personally expect 8% off of my investments, but once again I'm buying the security of the ETF at the cost of that extra 4% I could otherwise earn and consider that a fair trade-off. Once again I'm speaking as a risk averse investor who prefers the Bogle method.

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Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:01 pm 
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Given that Bezos runs WaPo, I'd bet that Amazon will have antitrust "issues" soon to be discussed by the feds.

Watch this bubble

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:45 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
But your earlier post about distinguishing tax rates based on the investment period suggests it finally isn't.
My earlier post was to deter investors only thinking about the short term. It really isn't the same as taxing every trade. That is just a different investment strategy. Why is it any worse for someone to do 100 trades in a day than it is for someone to do 3 trades in a day?

Regular Reader wrote:
And imo any mutual or pension fund churning millions of stocks like day traders aren't really investment firms in the classic sense of the phrase. They're gaming the system and represent some of what is wrong with our markets
It's not really gaming the system though.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:48 pm 
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I wonder how much space they need to carve out of a WFM to have a 1-day inventory for the top 500 Amazon.com items with a demand for same day delivery?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:41 pm 
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I have two words: F*** Bezos.

How many jobs has he killed? Why would you ever buy from Amazon, knowing that part of your money is going into his pockets?

Just what we need: another megalomaniac who wants to take over the world.

He's very creepy. Keep him away from your children.


Last edited by Dignified Rube on Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Dignified Rube wrote:
I have two words: F*** Bezos.

How many jobs has he killed? Why would you ever buy from Amazon, knowing that part of your money is going into his pockets?

Just what we need: another megalomaniac who wants to take over the world.

Don't like Jeff Bezos, don't use Amazon.

The rest of us enjoy our 2 day free Prime shipping. That's the great thing about choice and free association.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:36 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
But your earlier post about distinguishing tax rates based on the investment period suggests it finally isn't.
My earlier post was to deter investors only thinking about the short term. It really isn't the same as taxing every trade. That is just a different investment strategy. Why is it any worse for someone to do 100 trades in a day than it is for someone to do 3 trades in a day?

Regular Reader wrote:
And imo any mutual or pension fund churning millions of stocks like day traders aren't really investment firms in the classic sense of the phrase. They're gaming the system and represent some of what is wrong with our markets
It's not really gaming the system though.


Of course it is. For years thanks to hyenas like CNBC insiders could most brazenly work the system. Hell, I day traded for awhile and picked up on quick change plays.

In full disclosure if I had a backer that could have kept worry at bay for two more weeks, my problematic short of NITE would've staked me for day trading for maybe 3 more years.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:54 am 
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I can't wait until I can get my certified organic ground oats delivered via drone.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:21 am 
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Steel cut seems to be the more trendy oatmeal thing now.

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