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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:10 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Beyond that, there are no Christians who are widely accepted as learned religious scholars who support such beliefs.

Perhaps there would be if Christians had been subjected to the centuries of imperialist violence the US and Europe have launched on the Middle East. But I realize that brings actual materialism into the picture instead of the reductive and convenient motherlode of bad ideas rubbish.

True, but it's not like Muslims didn't have empires there before 1800. And nobody asked Muslims to seize control of formerly interesting countries, like Iran. The good times of the 70s had to end some time.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:12 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
No, I'm in fact not doing that. I'm telling you that any religious text can be used to believe stupid things. Islam doesn't have a huge rate of violence because of its written word. It has a higher rate because of its current culture and the radical elements that are raising children to believe the same thing.


There is no call for Jihad in the Bible. And Jesus was not a warlord attempting to conquer the Middle East with force. Slightly different precedent for violence in each, but agreed that the texts are crazy and can be twisted into nearly everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:13 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:

No, I'm in fact not doing that. I'm telling you that any religious text can be used to believe stupid things.

justify, probably. i don't think those people are about believing; they are about anger or maintaining power or control.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:13 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Beyond that, there are no Christians who are widely accepted as learned religious scholars who support such beliefs.

Perhaps there would be if Christians had been subjected to the centuries of imperialist violence the US and Europe have launched on the Middle East. But I realize that brings actual materialism into the picture instead of the reductive and convenient motherlode of bad ideas rubbish.



If you're suggesting that the religious texts are incidental here, I'm going to disagree. If you're saying that the British Empire fucked up the world and caused people to embrace those religious texts in a way they may not have otherwise, I'm inclined to agree. But I think your argument falls apart when you consider that Hindus, for example, who have been just as affected by British imperialism, aren't blowing themselves up on buses in Trafalgar Square.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:14 pm 
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The Ottoman Empire dominated these regions for 500 years before WWI so centuries of oppression by the West is horse shit.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:15 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Beyond that, there are no Christians who are widely accepted as learned religious scholars who support such beliefs.

Perhaps there would be if Christians had been subjected to the centuries of imperialist violence the US and Europe have launched on the Middle East. But I realize that brings actual materialism into the picture instead of the reductive and convenient motherlode of bad ideas rubbish.


Talk about not knowing your history. Muslims have been quite aggressive in colonizing others. This only ended because they fell behind in science, which has been a good thing for human progress.

Islam claims to be the ultimate solution to all human problems. The final revelation of the Abrahamic god. To claim that this belief has no influence on this group of people is laughable. Is the West to blame for their lack of scientific achievements as well?

Is the question colonialism or radicalism? If the former, Islam is hardly any more guilty than any Christian nation. And if the latter, then again I'd suggest the salience of radical thought can be just as attributed to the actions of the West as anything else. The current regime in Iran can be directly traced back to the US installing the Shah against a democratically elected leader who didn't want to provide oil at the US's asking price.


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:16 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
If you are going to join someone else's conversation, then reading BEFORE you RESPOND would be HELPFUL for you.

Good God, you still don't understand! No one is calling for state-sponsored elimination of religion.

leashyourkids wrote:
I don't believe anyone called for the state to eliminate religion.


There were numerous times in the 20th century where a Communist state called for the elimination of religion. Millions of people died because of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:16 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
The Ottoman Empire dominated these regions for 500 years before WWI so centuries of oppression by the West is horse shit.

No, it was the Great Satan

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:18 pm 
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Crest wrote:
[ leader who didn't want to provide oil at the US's asking price.


Or one who nationalized an oil industry that was built and maintained by the British. Depends which side of the lens you are on.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:19 pm 
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Seacrest wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
If you are going to join someone else's conversation, then reading BEFORE you RESPOND would be HELPFUL for you.

Good God, you still don't understand! No one is calling for state-sponsored elimination of religion.

leashyourkids wrote:
I don't believe anyone called for the state to eliminate religion.


There were numerous times in the 20th century where a Communist state called for the elimination of religion. Millions of people died because of that.


These are completely unrelated thoughts. And as stated no one is denying that Communism cracked down on established religions. What has been said is that the state made the leader an object of worship- rather than the absence of religion.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:21 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Beyond that, there are no Christians who are widely accepted as learned religious scholars who support such beliefs.

Perhaps there would be if Christians had been subjected to the centuries of imperialist violence the US and Europe have launched on the Middle East. But I realize that brings actual materialism into the picture instead of the reductive and convenient motherlode of bad ideas rubbish.


Talk about not knowing your history. Muslims have been quite aggressive in colonizing others. This only ended because they fell behind in science, which has been a good thing for human progress.

Islam claims to be the ultimate solution to all human problems. The final revelation of the Abrahamic god. To claim that this belief has no influence on this group of people is laughable. Is the West to blame for their lack of scientific achievements as well?

Is the question colonialism or radicalism? If the former, Islam is hardly any more guilty than any Christian nation. And if the latter, then again I'd suggest the salience of radical thought can be just as attributed to the actions of the West as anything else. The current regime in Iran can be directly traced back to the US installing the Shah against a democratically elected leader who didn't want to provide oil at the US's asking price.


So why are there not Vietnamese suicide bombers, or Latin American terrorists flying planes into buildings. Your argument that American aggression is a singular-cause is absurd. Their belief in Islam is certainly a factor.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:21 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Beyond that, there are no Christians who are widely accepted as learned religious scholars who support such beliefs.

Perhaps there would be if Christians had been subjected to the centuries of imperialist violence the US and Europe have launched on the Middle East. But I realize that brings actual materialism into the picture instead of the reductive and convenient motherlode of bad ideas rubbish.


Talk about not knowing your history. Muslims have been quite aggressive in colonizing others. This only ended because they fell behind in science, which has been a good thing for human progress.

Islam claims to be the ultimate solution to all human problems. The final revelation of the Abrahamic god. To claim that this belief has no influence on this group of people is laughable. Is the West to blame for their lack of scientific achievements as well?

Is the question colonialism or radicalism? If the former, Islam is hardly any more guilty than any Christian nation. And if the latter, then again I'd suggest the salience of radical thought can be just as attributed to the actions of the West as anything else. The current regime in Iran can be directly traced back to the US installing the Shah against a democratically elected leader who didn't want to provide oil at the US's asking price.

What the Americans did was remarkably shitty, no doubt. But you'd think that one of the world's oldest cultures would come up with something better than the fun bunch that seized power.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:22 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Beyond that, there are no Christians who are widely accepted as learned religious scholars who support such beliefs.

Perhaps there would be if Christians had been subjected to the centuries of imperialist violence the US and Europe have launched on the Middle East. But I realize that brings actual materialism into the picture instead of the reductive and convenient motherlode of bad ideas rubbish.



If you're suggesting that the religious texts are incidental here, I'm going to disagree. If you're saying that the British Empire fucked up the world and caused people to embrace those religious texts in a way they may not have otherwise, I'm inclined to agree. But I think your argument falls apart when you consider that Hindus, for example, who have been just as affected by British imperialism, aren't blowing themselves up on buses in Trafalgar Square.

Are we merely concerned about terrrorism in the West specifically? Because there's most definitely been Hindu-inspired terrorism. Obviously if you weigh lives lost in Trafalgar Square higher than in the rest of the world you may can easily downplay it though. And of course, I'd suggest Western interference has remained a fair bit higher in the Middle East over the last half century than it has generally been in predominantly Hindu countries.


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:23 pm 
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ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Beyond that, there are no Christians who are widely accepted as learned religious scholars who support such beliefs.

Perhaps there would be if Christians had been subjected to the centuries of imperialist violence the US and Europe have launched on the Middle East. But I realize that brings actual materialism into the picture instead of the reductive and convenient motherlode of bad ideas rubbish.


Um look up the early history of Christianity in the Roman Empire.Yah know the parts where they where fed to the lions and stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:24 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
ZephMarshack wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Beyond that, there are no Christians who are widely accepted as learned religious scholars who support such beliefs.

Perhaps there would be if Christians had been subjected to the centuries of imperialist violence the US and Europe have launched on the Middle East. But I realize that brings actual materialism into the picture instead of the reductive and convenient motherlode of bad ideas rubbish.


Talk about not knowing your history. Muslims have been quite aggressive in colonizing others. This only ended because they fell behind in science, which has been a good thing for human progress.

Islam claims to be the ultimate solution to all human problems. The final revelation of the Abrahamic god. To claim that this belief has no influence on this group of people is laughable. Is the West to blame for their lack of scientific achievements as well?

Is the question colonialism or radicalism? If the former, Islam is hardly any more guilty than any Christian nation. And if the latter, then again I'd suggest the salience of radical thought can be just as attributed to the actions of the West as anything else. The current regime in Iran can be directly traced back to the US installing the Shah against a democratically elected leader who didn't want to provide oil at the US's asking price.


So why are there not Vietnamese suicide bombers, or Latin American terrorists flying planes into buildings. Your argument that American aggression is a singular-cause is absurd. Their belief in Islam is certainly a factor.

How many drone strikes and wars have we launched in the Middle East compared to Latin America and Vietnam in the last three decades?


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:26 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
If you are going to join someone else's conversation, then reading BEFORE you RESPOND would be HELPFUL for you.

Good God, you still don't understand! No one is calling for state-sponsored elimination of religion.

leashyourkids wrote:
I don't believe anyone called for the state to eliminate religion.


There were numerous times in the 20th century where a Communist state called for the elimination of religion. Millions of people died because of that.


These are completely unrelated thoughts. And as stated no one is denying that Communism cracked down on established religions. What has been said is that the state made the leader an object of worship- rather than the absence of religion.


There is a difference between cracking down, and having them eliminated from the state.

It was a stated goal of Russia, China and Albania to ELIMINATE, not CRACKDOWN on religion. And many people were killed because of it.

The institution of a social system without religion was the goal of Communism. Not the worship of the heads of state.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:26 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Do it then. Make a reasonable argument based on something from the New Testament that supports blowing yourself up in a pizza parlor. I don't believe you can.
Why limit this to the New Testament only? 1 in 4 American's believe the Bible is the literal word of God.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Do it then. Make a reasonable argument based on something from the New Testament that supports blowing yourself up in a pizza parlor. I don't believe you can.
Why limit this to the New Testament only? 1 in 4 American's believe the Bible is the literal word of God.



Then why do only 1% abstain from fried shrimp?

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:32 pm 
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Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Do it then. Make a reasonable argument based on something from the New Testament that supports blowing yourself up in a pizza parlor. I don't believe you can.
Why limit this to the New Testament only? 1 in 4 American's believe the Bible is the literal word of God.


I think most of them understand the concept of the New Covenant though, don't you?

"An eye for an eye" has been superseded. "When the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush" has not.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:32 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Do it then. Make a reasonable argument based on something from the New Testament that supports blowing yourself up in a pizza parlor. I don't believe you can.
Why limit this to the New Testament only? 1 in 4 American's believe the Bible is the literal word of God.



Then why do only 1% abstain from fried shrimp?


:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:38 pm 
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There's definitely a case to cast Middle East terrorism in the mid to late 20th century in an anti-colonial context, with most modern ME states being essentially created in the same century. This is standard among many historians of that period. As far as Latin America, I'm not well-read on that history, but I thought we did see violent outbreaks and radical movements/militia in that region between the 1950s - 1970s. Could be wrong. This ISIS stuff is a split, I'd argue. As others have mentioned, many of the colonial/imperial rationalizations don't apply (not that their justifications anyway for committing atrocities). Many propagandists of ISIS are sometimes well-educated westerners, or people who grow up in the ME but have professional degrees/occupations, for example. It's simple barbarism.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:39 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
There's definitely a case to cast Middle East terrorism in the mid to late 20th century in an anti-colonial context, with most modern ME states being essentially created in the same century. This is standard among many historians of that period. As far as Latin America, I'm not well-read on that history, but I thought we did see violent outbreaks and radical movements/militia in that region between the 1950s - 1970s. Could be wrong. This ISIS stuff is a split, I'd argue. As others have mentioned, many of the colonial/imperial rationalizations don't apply (not that their justifications anyway for committing atrocities). Many propagandists of ISIS are sometimes well-educated westerners, or people who grow up in the ME but have professional degrees/occupations, for example. It's simple barbarism.


THE PIRATES??

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Zeph doing work here.

Every time we do this thread the discourse devolves a bit more. It's not surprising that it's pretty much down to "kill all the Muslims everywhere"

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Do it then. Make a reasonable argument based on something from the New Testament that supports blowing yourself up in a pizza parlor. I don't believe you can.
Why limit this to the New Testament only? 1 in 4 American's believe the Bible is the literal word of God.



Then why do only 1% abstain from fried shrimp?
:lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:43 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
When you eradicate religion, something else will take its place. I think South Park (which is very critical of religion) demonstrated this quite well.

but hey, keep being a revisionist liar and deny basic historical facts such as the fact Communists tried to eradicate religion via force.


You are the one being dishonest. Communism tried to replace one religion with another. And South Park is your statement on the path of humanity?

Your religion is just as made up as Islam. You can cling to it if you want, but it's human made ignorance. When you can get past that you can start to see a path out. You do not need imaginary sky gods to live a moral life or to feel a part of something larger. And if we trust science it will have answers for some of the questions that religion created stories to answer.

That's the entire point, when you eliminate religion, the role it filled will invariably be filled by something else. Please tell me this is an act, you can't possibly be this dense.


If you use South Park as a guide for a future without religion calling anyone dense is laughable. If you believe in a sky god, even more so.

Your argument is that removing religion solves the problem. My point is that something will always stand in to fill the place of religion. You cannot undo human nature. War will continue as war is always about policy. Von Clausewitz is as correct today as he was 200 years ago when he wrote: "War is not merely a political act, but also a real political instrument, a continuation of political commerce, a carrying out of the same by other means."

You are deluding yourself if removing religion from the equation will change anything. Religion is just a recruiting too used today by those who are enacting that guerrilla war via terrorism. Other recruiting tools will be used in the absence of religion.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:43 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Zeph doing work here.

Every time we do this thread the discourse devolves a bit more. It's not surprising that it's pretty much down to "kill all the Muslims everywhere"


Show me anywhere in history where attempted genocide has gone wrong, smart guy.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:48 pm 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Your argument is that removing religion solves the problem. My point is that something will always stand in to fill the place of religion. You cannot undo human nature. War will continue as war is always about policy. Von Clausewitz is as correct today as he was 200 years ago when he wrote: "War is not merely a political act, but also a real political instrument, a continuation of political commerce, a carrying out of the same by other means."

You are deluding yourself if removing religion from the equation will change anything. Religion is just a recruiting too used today by those who are enacting that guerrilla war via terrorism. Other recruiting tools will be used in the absence of religion.
That isn't totally true. The removal of religion has resulted in many great steps forward in society. Even today the lessening of the importance of religion in our country has given more rights to those who were denied them based on religious reasons. It's not as if some other thing took that over and continued to do it.

The simple answer is that religion in government is a mistake. Islam would not be anywhere close to the issue it is right now if we didn't have so many Islamic states.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:50 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
It's not as if some other thing took that over and continued to do it.



You sure about that? I think a good argument can be made that government itself has become the new religion.

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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:07 pm 
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America wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Terrorism against the U.S. will cease the second that the U.S. stops attempting to influence the political and economic affairs of countries where terrorists are spawned. Anger towards the U.S. is directly tied to this and frankly it should be. We are bombing the hell out of those countries and repeatedly telling them that they and their way of life arent worth shit. We wonder why they may actually have a problem with it. Talk about being tone deaf.

These attacks are mostly happening in Europe now. The convenient excuse of blowback isn't really there anymore, Europe held their hands out in aid to these animals and now they are being attacked for it.

But now that people are hitting back and taking the fight to the Muslims themselves we'll see how willing the liberals and the media are to admit that these kinds of killings and attacks are a direct result of "moderate" Muslin's refusal to police their own religion. Blowback goes both ways, but that won't stop them from playing the victim.


Moderate Islam occurs in Indonesia and they have no axe to grind with America. You can't keep pushing the notion that it is a religious war because it isn't. If it were Muslims from all over the world would be shouting "Death to America". They aren't. It's been confined mostly to the Middle East and is geopolitical in nature.

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The Hawk wrote:
This is going to reach a head pretty soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Mosque Attack
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:10 am
Posts: 31948
Hatchetman wrote:
Islam has been at war with the west for over 1300 years. not stopping any time soon...err ever.


That's a lie.

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The Hawk wrote:
This is going to reach a head pretty soon.


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