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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:59 am 
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Still. My point is that you have real world experience using NY's mass transit system(s). Dumbass Bob is just Googling stuff.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:59 am 
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Really, the people in that article would seem to disagree.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:00 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
I'll take the word of a guy who lives and works in/near NY over you.

I used to.


Let me see if the link works this way:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/nyc-mayor-pushes-for-tax-on-the-1-percent-to-fund-subway-fix/2017/08/07/5612aa60-7b5f-11e7-b2b1-aeba62854dfa_story.html?utm_term=.6c2a9593743e

My complaint is that there is enough money already in the entire system, but they just keep sucking up more. It's non-stop. And the riders should absolutely fund the additional costs of upgrades.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:01 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Took the red line the other day. Looked just fine to me.

Well yeah, the L is in better condition than the Subway because it has much fewer riders and hasn't recently been wracked by flooding from a hurricane. Also, the whole Red Line has had a lot of recent work done.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:02 am 
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:lol: No shit. Wasn't the entire red line south of 22nd closed all of last summer (or 2 summers ago)?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:03 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Took the red line the other day. Looked just fine to me.

Well yeah, the L is in better condition than the Subway because it has much fewer riders and hasn't recently been wracked by flooding from a hurricane. Also, the whole Red Line has had a lot of recent work done.


So Chicago's mass transit has less issues than New York's. Thanks for agreeing with me.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:04 am 
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I was shocked how nice the red line cars were yesterday. I hadn't ridden in a while and they used to be real pieces of shit.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:05 am 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
:lol: No shit. Wasn't the entire red line south of 22nd closed all of last summer (or 2 summers ago)?


Important people in Chicago have no use for the red line south of 22nd. Lao Sze Chuan FTW!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:06 am 
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denisdman wrote:
And the riders should absolutely fund the additional costs of upgrades.

That's a pretty big ask of a lot of people making not a lot of money. We're not talking about people riding in from Suffolk County here.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:11 am 
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denisdman wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
I'll take the word of a guy who lives and works in/near NY over you.

I used to.


Let me see if the link works this way:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/nyc-mayor-pushes-for-tax-on-the-1-percent-to-fund-subway-fix/2017/08/07/5612aa60-7b5f-11e7-b2b1-aeba62854dfa_story.html?utm_term=.6c2a9593743e

My complaint is that there is enough money already in the entire system, but they just keep sucking up more. It's non-stop. And the riders should absolutely fund the additional costs of upgrades.

Earlier in the thread you complained about tollways increasing in price. So who are you crappin?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:12 am 
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Chicago does not have near the same levels gentrification issues as New York. Not going to sit here and let Brick trash my great city. Not going to happen.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:12 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
I'll take the word of a guy who lives and works in/near NY over you.

I used to.


Let me see if the link works this way:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/nyc-mayor-pushes-for-tax-on-the-1-percent-to-fund-subway-fix/2017/08/07/5612aa60-7b5f-11e7-b2b1-aeba62854dfa_story.html?utm_term=.6c2a9593743e

My complaint is that there is enough money already in the entire system, but they just keep sucking up more. It's non-stop. And the riders should absolutely fund the additional costs of upgrades.

Earlier in the thread you complained about tollways increasing in price. So who are you crappin?

The users should pay for repairs, except when I am a user of said system.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:15 am 
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denisdman wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
I'll take the word of a guy who lives and works in/near NY over you.

I used to.


Let me see if the link works this way:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/nyc-mayor-pushes-for-tax-on-the-1-percent-to-fund-subway-fix/2017/08/07/5612aa60-7b5f-11e7-b2b1-aeba62854dfa_story.html?utm_term=.6c2a9593743e

My complaint is that there is enough money already in the entire system, but they just keep sucking up more. It's non-stop. And the riders should absolutely fund the additional costs of upgrades.
Well, the fallacy is that whatever is currently there is "correct". When we were talking about Chicago's financial mess, I believe you said they should cut things to get down to a manageable level. Would it be fair to say that the current spending is right simply because it is currently set at that level?

For something as important as public transportation inside a very high population density I'm more willing to think it should be overfunded rather than underfunded.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:17 am 
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Quote:
The tax would increase the top income tax rate from about 3.9 percent to 4.4 percent for married couples who make more than $1 million and individuals making more than $500,000, city officials said. It would affect about 32,000 of New Yorkers filing taxes in the city, or just less than 1 percent, officials said.


Okay, well, I bet a lot of those 32,000 people would be fucked six ways from Sunday if New York did not have functional and affordable mass transit. What's a nurse going from the Bronx to Brooklyn supposed to do, be an Uber driver on the way to the hospital?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:17 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Chicago does not have near the same levels gentrification issues as New York. Not going to sit here and let Brick trash my great city. Not going to happen.

You were the one who compared it to Chicago, and literally anyone who has been to both would know that while Chicago has some really good parts of it(mainly if you live on the Red or Blue Line or in the Loop) it doesn't compare to the options in New York.

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Last edited by Brick on Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:19 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Chicago does not have near the same levels gentrification issues as New York. Not going to sit here and let Brick trash my great city. Not going to happen.

You were the one who compared it to Chicago, and literally anyone who has been to both would know that while Chicago has some really good parts or it(mainly if you live on the Red or Blue Line or in the Loop) it doesn't compare to the options in New York.

Axiomatically, public transportation makes Chicago cheaper and easier to get around, while public transportation makes New York possible to get around.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:22 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Chicago does not have near the same levels gentrification issues as New York. Not going to sit here and let Brick trash my great city. Not going to happen.

You were the one who compared it to Chicago, and literally anyone who has been to both would know that while Chicago has some really good parts or it(mainly if you live on the Red or Blue Line or in the Loop) it doesn't compare to the options in New York.

Axiomatically, public transportation makes Chicago cheaper and easier to get around, while public transportation makes New York possible to get around.


Provided you can afford to live in the area.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:23 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Preemptively, no, you can't just further shift the costs of the Subway onto riders, who are already paying $2.75 a ride.

Wait... what?

You don't want to charge the people that use it the correct amount of money to make sure it can operate as it needs to?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:25 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Well, the fallacy is that whatever is currently there is "correct". When we were talking about Chicago's financial mess, I believe you said they should cut things to get down to a manageable level. Would it be fair to say that the current spending is right simply because it is currently set at that level?

For something as important as public transportation inside a very high population density I'm more willing to think it should be overfunded rather than underfunded.


That tax plan raises $800M annually, and the system needs $29B according to the article. Public transport, particularly in NY is absolutely essential. They should fully fund it with user fees. You're not going to fund all the government's priorities with taxes on the wealthy. That pot isn't big enough as CT has learned. Here's your income tax rates in NYC:

Federal- 39%
NY State- 8.8%
NYC- 3.9%

You're at 52%, albeit non-AMT payers lower their Federal Rate by deducting local taxes.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:25 am 
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CH is right. The system is basically designed to let middle class and poor people into the expensive parts of the city. It isn't cheap if you live in the suburbs and it isn't really "cheap" to go in between stops in Manhattan.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:26 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
denisdman wrote:
And the riders should absolutely fund the additional costs of upgrades.

That's a pretty big ask of a lot of people making not a lot of money. We're not talking about people riding in from Suffolk County here.

I wonder if CTA has ever done a study of their flat-rate fare system versus a zone system. I never quite understood why O'Hare to Lake is the same cost as Logan Square to Grand Ave.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:27 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
denisdman wrote:
And the riders should absolutely fund the additional costs of upgrades.

That's a pretty big ask of a lot of people making not a lot of money. We're not talking about people riding in from Suffolk County here.

I wonder if CTA has ever done a study of their flat-rate fare system versus a zone system. I never quite understood why O'Hare to Lake is the same cost as Logan Square to Grand Ave.


It would be a nightmare to enforce.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:28 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
denisdman wrote:
And the riders should absolutely fund the additional costs of upgrades.

That's a pretty big ask of a lot of people making not a lot of money. We're not talking about people riding in from Suffolk County here.

I wonder if CTA has ever done a study of their flat-rate fare system versus a zone system. I never quite understood why O'Hare to Lake is the same cost as Logan Square to Grand Ave.


Pittsburgh used to use a zone scheme. They just got rid of that as well as transfers. It was just too problematic apparently versus just charging a flat rate.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:29 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
denisdman wrote:
And the riders should absolutely fund the additional costs of upgrades.

That's a pretty big ask of a lot of people making not a lot of money. We're not talking about people riding in from Suffolk County here.

I wonder if CTA has ever done a study of their flat-rate fare system versus a zone system. I never quite understood why O'Hare to Lake is the same cost as Logan Square to Grand Ave.


Perhaps the additional overhead conductors/agents that would be required to audit tickets? D.C actually does this model well, you use a machine to check in/out based on zone. They probably have the best subway system in the nation(if not they are up there, especially since you can connect to Dulles now and avoid the hell that is Reagan Int.)


Last edited by Caller Bob on Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:30 am 
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denisdman wrote:
That tax plan raises $800M annually, and the system needs $29B according to the article. Public transport, particularly in NY is absolutely essential. They should fully fund it with user fees. You're not going to fund all the government's priorities with taxes on the wealthy. That pot isn't big enough as CT has learned.
The subway is unique though. The commuter rails are already expensive. The subway is designed to keep the working class around and also help with tourism. It's plausible that fully funding with user fees would cost them money using the same logic that raising the sugar tax will lose money as people change behavior to avoid it.


denisdman wrote:
Here's your income tax rates in NYC:

Federal- 39%
NY State- 8.8%
NYC- 3.9%

You're at 52%, albeit non-AMT payers lower their Federal Rate by deducting local taxes.
I'm not going to cry for any person at the highest tax bracket who chooses to live in NYC and has to pay 4%-5% of their income to do so. For one thing, they almost certainly make that money up in salary. I wasn't rich but I could have almost doubled my salary if I was willing to commute into the city.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:32 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
denisdman wrote:
And the riders should absolutely fund the additional costs of upgrades.

That's a pretty big ask of a lot of people making not a lot of money. We're not talking about people riding in from Suffolk County here.

I wonder if CTA has ever done a study of their flat-rate fare system versus a zone system. I never quite understood why O'Hare to Lake is the same cost as Logan Square to Grand Ave.
It's done mostly to give the poorer people on the outskirts a way they can afford to get to the richer parts of the city and then leave.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:35 am 
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Douchebag wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Let me see if the link works this way:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/nyc-mayor-pushes-for-tax-on-the-1-percent-to-fund-subway-fix/2017/08/07/5612aa60-7b5f-11e7-b2b1-aeba62854dfa_story.html?utm_term=.6c2a9593743e

My complaint is that there is enough money already in the entire system, but they just keep sucking up more. It's non-stop. And the riders should absolutely fund the additional costs of upgrades.

Earlier in the thread you complained about tollways increasing in price. So who are you crappin?

The users should pay for repairs, except when I am a user of said system.

Ya, denis has some odd views.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:38 am 
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denisdman wrote:
http://www.tax.illinois.gov/News/2017_Gasohol.htm

July 11th Effective Date for Changes to the Gasohol Sales and Use Tax Exemption

While P.A. 100-22 removed the 20-percent Sales and Use Tax Exemption for sales of gasohol effective July 1, 2017, the Department has allowed motor fuel retailers until July 10, 2017, to make the appropriate changes to their pumps. The Department will not hold retailers responsible for collecting from their customers the full 100 percent amount of tax on gasohol sales made prior to July 11th, but if a retailer began collecting the full amount of tax prior to July 11th, that retailer must remit all tax collected to the Department. Retailers should not attempt to refund the tax in order to obtain a credit from the Department.

Edit: article on it

https://townhall.com/watchdog/illinois/ ... nol-n10779

You rail on this as a tax increase but I see it as a repeal of a carve out for an inferior product. A subsidy for a shitty product. The reason behind the repeal is crooked but the result is a positive. As a free market guy I would have assumed you'd be cheering for the government eliminating a rule providing an industry/product with favored status.


Last edited by Kirkwood on Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:39 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
denisdman wrote:
And the riders should absolutely fund the additional costs of upgrades.

That's a pretty big ask of a lot of people making not a lot of money. We're not talking about people riding in from Suffolk County here.

I wonder if CTA has ever done a study of their flat-rate fare system versus a zone system. I never quite understood why O'Hare to Lake is the same cost as Logan Square to Grand Ave.
It's done mostly to give the poorer people on the outskirts a way they can afford to get to the richer parts of the city and then leave.

Just about every major subway system is pay per ride rather than zone based. usually only commuter rail to the suburbs has zone based fares

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:46 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
I wonder if CTA has ever done a study of their flat-rate fare system versus a zone system. I never quite understood why O'Hare to Lake is the same cost as Logan Square to Grand Ave.

It's $5 to ride out of O'Hare, though I think you get a special farecard if you work at O'Hare and just pay the standard $2.25.

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