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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:27 pm 
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W_Z wrote:
formerlyknownas wrote:
W_Z wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
KDdidit wrote:
HBO can make an alt-history show on it.

JFK not being assassinated makes for more interesting alt history, and of course it exists in the form of an underwhelming King book and show. So much potential to that idea though.


it was always sticking in my craw why i never decided to finish that book; i got about 120 pages into it, and set it down, and never picked it up. and i think that's why. i never got into it. it was pretty well written for a "newer" king book. but it just had an attitude about it that rubbed me wrong. like it was trying to be hip or something. and i just didn't care enough about the story to keep going.

and i'm extremely fascinated with JFK stuff. i've probably watched the stone movie like 4 or 5 times.

Funny you say that. I thought the same thing when I started it. I thought, "Goddamnit, King is being lazy again. Can he limit himself to one paragraph in which the main character discusses his love of the diner food?"

I picked it up later and I've gotta say, it was the most fun I've had reading a book in years. Give it another try--seriously. For some reason, it worked for me on the second attempt.


shouldn't it have worked on the third attempt?

wait--the big boy is confused. (sorry about the third person, but when you bench 385, you get them perks.)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:28 pm 
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third attempt, third bullet...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:30 pm 
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W_Z wrote:
third attempt, third bullet...

yeah . . . i'm not real quick . . .

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:03 pm 
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Nas wrote:

I absolutely hate Clinton and don't know why your generation and older love him. Nixon gets a pass from you despite his Vietnam sabotage and the fact that he had to resign for committing a crime but you beat LBJ up for JFK's war. Ike was great but as a black man LBJ will always be higher on my list.



Using your logic would make Vietnam Ike's war. It was neither Ike's nor Kennedy's war it was Johnson's. He was the person that escalated U.S. involvement in Vietnam. He was also the person that lied to Congress for the purpose of increasing U.S. involvement. It was his war.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:29 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:

I absolutely hate Clinton and don't know why your generation and older love him. Nixon gets a pass from you despite his Vietnam sabotage and the fact that he had to resign for committing a crime but you beat LBJ up for JFK's war. Ike was great but as a black man LBJ will always be higher on my list.



Using your logic would make Vietnam Ike's war. It was neither Ike's nor Kennedy's war it was Johnson's. He was the person that escalated U.S. involvement in Vietnam. He was also the person that lied to Congress for the purpose of increasing U.S. involvement. It was his war.


Remember the Gulf of Tonkin 'incident' never happened. It was the weapons of mass destruction of the time but nobody questioned the government back then. Take into account Johnson's ego with running the war instead of letting the generals and military people run the war. Plus Johnson admitted many times that the war had to keep on going so his friends in the weapons industry and MIC could continue to make money.

Its pretty known now JFK was going to get out of Vietnam after he wont he election. He was playing Hawk to get elected in 64, but he had every intention not to get involved. We'll never know what would have happened but I think the Vietnam war would not have escalated like it did with LBJ.

But with the new revisionist historians of today, I guess Vietnam was all Nixon's fault. :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:38 am 
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Obama escalated the war in Afghanistan but no one calls that his war.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:59 am 
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Nas wrote:
Obama escalated the war in Afghanistan but no one calls that his war.


The United States was actually at war with Afghanistan when Obama became President. They were not at War with Vietnam when Kennedy was President. As Hawaii you and I have pointed out, Johnson used Gulf of Tonkin incident as a means of selling the war. Why would he have to do that if we were already at war?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:05 am 
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HawaiiYou wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:

I absolutely hate Clinton and don't know why your generation and older love him. Nixon gets a pass from you despite his Vietnam sabotage and the fact that he had to resign for committing a crime but you beat LBJ up for JFK's war. Ike was great but as a black man LBJ will always be higher on my list.



Using your logic would make Vietnam Ike's war. It was neither Ike's nor Kennedy's war it was Johnson's. He was the person that escalated U.S. involvement in Vietnam. He was also the person that lied to Congress for the purpose of increasing U.S. involvement. It was his war.


Remember the Gulf of Tonkin 'incident' never happened. It was the weapons of mass destruction of the time but nobody questioned the government back then. Take into account Johnson's ego with running the war instead of letting the generals and military people run the war. Plus Johnson admitted many times that the war had to keep on going so his friends in the weapons industry and MIC could continue to make money.

Its pretty known now JFK was going to get out of Vietnam after he wont he election. He was playing Hawk to get elected in 64, but he had every intention not to get involved. We'll never know what would have happened but I think the Vietnam war would not have escalated like it did with LBJ.

But with the new revisionist historians of today, I guess Vietnam was all Nixon's fault. :roll:



Yep. Vietnam was such a debacle for Johnson that he decided not to run for reelection yet Vietnam was not his war. Classic revisionism. People can debate Nixon's methods for withdrawing the U.S. and his non stop bombing of the Vietnamese but when its all said and done he is the President that withdrew the military.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:06 am 
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I thought the CIA killed JFK over his reluctance to get in Vietnam.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:15 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
Obama escalated the war in Afghanistan but no one calls that his war.


The United States was actually at war with Afghanistan when Obama became President. They were not at War with Vietnam when Kennedy was President. As Hawaii you and I have pointed out, Johnson used Gulf of Tonkin incident as a means of selling the war. Why would he have to do that if we were already at war?


We had already entered the war and increased our troop level multiple times before LBJ became president. If Afghanistan isn't Obama's war despite his significant troop surge then Vietnam isn't LBJ's war.

Your dislike of LBJ and love of Clinton is really odd. I'll never understand it.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:15 am 
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You can pic nits about who started VN versus escalated it and so on but there was involvement for JFK and some level of escalation under him.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:21 am 
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Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
Obama escalated the war in Afghanistan but no one calls that his war.


The United States was actually at war with Afghanistan when Obama became President. They were not at War with Vietnam when Kennedy was President. As Hawaii you and I have pointed out, Johnson used Gulf of Tonkin incident as a means of selling the war. Why would he have to do that if we were already at war?


We had already entered the war and increased our troop level multiple times before LBJ became president. If Afghanistan isn't Obama's war despite his significant troop surge then Vietnam isn't LBJ's war.

Your dislike of LBJ and love of Clinton is really odd. I'll never understand it.


You had military "advisers" vs actual soldiers. Ike had military advisers in Vietnam too. Does that make it his war too? Johnson placed 500,000 soldiers in Vietnam and lied to the country about being attacked in order to sell it.

LBJ got us entangled in the worst foreign conflict in this country's history. You can't discount that and the Civil Rights Act alone doesn't obscure it.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:23 am 
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pittmike wrote:
You can pic nits about who started VN versus escalated it and so on but there was involvement for JFK and some level of escalation under him.



The United States wasn't at war with Vietnam under Kennedy. it's no comparison.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:27 am 
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long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
You can pic nits about who started VN versus escalated it and so on but there was involvement for JFK and some level of escalation under him.



The United States wasn't at war with Vietnam under Kennedy. it's no comparison.


It wasn't at war under LBJ either technically. Undeclared police action. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:32 am 
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pittmike wrote:
long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
You can pic nits about who started VN versus escalated it and so on but there was involvement for JFK and some level of escalation under him.



The United States wasn't at war with Vietnam under Kennedy. it's no comparison.


It wasn't at war under LBJ either technically. Undeclared police action. :wink:



Now whose nitpicking? Where was Kennedy's equivalent to the Gulf of Tonkin resolution?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:35 am 
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long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
You can pic nits about who started VN versus escalated it and so on but there was involvement for JFK and some level of escalation under him.



The United States wasn't at war with Vietnam under Kennedy. it's no comparison.


It wasn't at war under LBJ either technically. Undeclared police action. :wink:



Now whose nitpicking? Where was Kennedy's equivalent to the Gulf of Tonkin resolution?


The troop level increased significantly MANY times. He hated the commies too.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:39 am 
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Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
You can pic nits about who started VN versus escalated it and so on but there was involvement for JFK and some level of escalation under him.



The United States wasn't at war with Vietnam under Kennedy. it's no comparison.


It wasn't at war under LBJ either technically. Undeclared police action. :wink:



Now whose nitpicking? Where was Kennedy's equivalent to the Gulf of Tonkin resolution?


The troop level increased significantly MANY times. He hated the commies too.


No it didn't. Kennedy increased the amount of aid to the South Vietnamese. He didn't increase the troop level much and that's even if you believe that the advisers were actually troops.

I don't by the way.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:47 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
You can pic nits about who started VN versus escalated it and so on but there was involvement for JFK and some level of escalation under him.



The United States wasn't at war with Vietnam under Kennedy. it's no comparison.


It wasn't at war under LBJ either technically. Undeclared police action. :wink:



Now whose nitpicking? Where was Kennedy's equivalent to the Gulf of Tonkin resolution?


The troop level increased significantly MANY times. He hated the commies too.


No it didn't. Kennedy increased the amount of aid to the South Vietnamese. He didn't increase the troop level much and that's even if you believe that the advisers were actually troops.

I don't by the way.


http://www.americanwarlibrary.com/vietnam/vwatl.htm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your ... ince-2001/

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:01 am 
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Ok Kennedy escalated the conflict by increasing the amount of "troops" to 21,000. Johnson didn't even though he made an informal declaration of war, held a draft, and sent guys in for the purpose of waging war. This is strange logic. Again if one is to follow this then Vietnam is technically Ike's war.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:06 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Ok Kennedy escalated the conflict by increasing the amount of "troops" to 21,000. Johnson didn't even though he made an informal declaration of war, held a draft, and sent guys in for the purpose of waging war. This is strange logic. Again if one is to follow this then Vietnam is technically Ike's war.


Either way it's not LBJ's war. He just tried to win it. He's the best president since FDR and Ike is the 2nd best.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:12 am 
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Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Ok Kennedy escalated the conflict by increasing the amount of "troops" to 21,000. Johnson didn't even though he made an informal declaration of war, held a draft, and sent guys in for the purpose of waging war. This is strange logic. Again if one is to follow this then Vietnam is technically Ike's war.


Either way it's not LBJ's war. He just tried to win it. He's the best president since FDR and Ike is the 2nd best.


Then what was the Gulf of Tonkin resolution about? If it was not his war then why did he decline to run in 68? U.S role in Vietnam was minimal during Kennedy's tenure in office. Most Americans didn't even know that the United States was in Vietnam and we definitely were not at War. This is revisionism at it's worst.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:17 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Ok Kennedy escalated the conflict by increasing the amount of "troops" to 21,000. Johnson didn't even though he made an informal declaration of war, held a draft, and sent guys in for the purpose of waging war. This is strange logic. Again if one is to follow this then Vietnam is technically Ike's war.


Either way it's not LBJ's war. He just tried to win it. He's the best president since FDR and Ike is the 2nd best.


Then what was the Gulf of Tonkin resolution about? If it was not his war then why did he decline to run in 68? U.S role in Vietnam was minimal during Kennedy's tenure in office. Most Americans didn't even know that the United States was in Vietnam and we definitely were not at War. This is revisionism at it's worst.


It was similar to the Afghanistan surge by Obama. He left because he didn't want to do FDR numbers and his health was in decline

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:21 am 
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Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Ok Kennedy escalated the conflict by increasing the amount of "troops" to 21,000. Johnson didn't even though he made an informal declaration of war, held a draft, and sent guys in for the purpose of waging war. This is strange logic. Again if one is to follow this then Vietnam is technically Ike's war.


Either way it's not LBJ's war. He just tried to win it. He's the best president since FDR and Ike is the 2nd best.


Then what was the Gulf of Tonkin resolution about? If it was not his war then why did he decline to run in 68? U.S role in Vietnam was minimal during Kennedy's tenure in office. Most Americans didn't even know that the United States was in Vietnam and we definitely were not at War. This is revisionism at it's worst.


It was similar to the Afghanistan surge by Obama. He left because he didn't want to do FDR numbers and his health was in decline



21,000 advisers whose expressed purpose was to provide technical assistance to the South Vietnamese army versus 500,000 soldiers, a draft, and an informal declaration of war. That really is some surge.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:29 am 
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long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Ok Kennedy escalated the conflict by increasing the amount of "troops" to 21,000. Johnson didn't even though he made an informal declaration of war, held a draft, and sent guys in for the purpose of waging war. This is strange logic. Again if one is to follow this then Vietnam is technically Ike's war.


Either way it's not LBJ's war. He just tried to win it. He's the best president since FDR and Ike is the 2nd best.


Then what was the Gulf of Tonkin resolution about? If it was not his war then why did he decline to run in 68? U.S role in Vietnam was minimal during Kennedy's tenure in office. Most Americans didn't even know that the United States was in Vietnam and we definitely were not at War. This is revisionism at it's worst.


It was similar to the Afghanistan surge by Obama. He left because he didn't want to do FDR numbers and his health was in decline



21,000 advisers whose expressed purpose was to provide technical assistance to the South Vietnamese army versus 500,000 soldiers, a draft, and an informal declaration of war. That really is some surge.


A guy looking to leave a conflict doesn't generally triple the troop level multiple times. JFK hated the commies too and with CHINA and the Soviets involved JFK would have continued his trend.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:52 pm 
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Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
long time guy wrote:
pittmike wrote:
You can pic nits about who started VN versus escalated it and so on but there was involvement for JFK and some level of escalation under him.



The United States wasn't at war with Vietnam under Kennedy. it's no comparison.


It wasn't at war under LBJ either technically. Undeclared police action. :wink:



Now whose nitpicking? Where was Kennedy's equivalent to the Gulf of Tonkin resolution?


The troop level increased significantly MANY times. He hated the commies too.


OMG you're like the lead revisionist here. On the day JFK was killed, 1500 troops were COMING BACK from Vietnam on his order. The next day, JFK's body not even cold, LBJ reversed his decision and increased troops in Vietnam.


Last edited by HawaiiYou on Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:54 pm 
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Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Ok Kennedy escalated the conflict by increasing the amount of "troops" to 21,000. Johnson didn't even though he made an informal declaration of war, held a draft, and sent guys in for the purpose of waging war. This is strange logic. Again if one is to follow this then Vietnam is technically Ike's war.


Either way it's not LBJ's war. He just tried to win it. He's the best president since FDR and Ike is the 2nd best.



come on man. a racist like LBJ is the 2nd best since FDR? Give me a break. He did nothing to win the war. the purpose for him was a long drawn out war to keep the $$$$ flowing into the MIC.


Last edited by HawaiiYou on Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:56 pm 
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Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Ok Kennedy escalated the conflict by increasing the amount of "troops" to 21,000. Johnson didn't even though he made an informal declaration of war, held a draft, and sent guys in for the purpose of waging war. This is strange logic. Again if one is to follow this then Vietnam is technically Ike's war.


Either way it's not LBJ's war. He just tried to win it. He's the best president since FDR and Ike is the 2nd best.


Then what was the Gulf of Tonkin resolution about? If it was not his war then why did he decline to run in 68? U.S role in Vietnam was minimal during Kennedy's tenure in office. Most Americans didn't even know that the United States was in Vietnam and we definitely were not at War. This is revisionism at it's worst.


It was similar to the Afghanistan surge by Obama. He left because he didn't want to do FDR numbers and his health was in decline



21,000 advisers whose expressed purpose was to provide technical assistance to the South Vietnamese army versus 500,000 soldiers, a draft, and an informal declaration of war. That really is some surge.


A guy looking to leave a conflict doesn't generally triple the troop level multiple times. JFK hated the commies too and with CHINA and the Soviets involved JFK would have continued his trend.


JFK did not hate the 'commies' wtf. If he hate the commies he would not have given his American University speech. Do me a favor and listen to that speech and tell me how he hated the commies. He was trying detente with Russia before he died.

This revisionist history is too much.

But that's where history is going. Its all being politicized. People are being fed made up bullshit instead of researching history.

I can't blame Nas for his POV. He's been fed this as so many have on both sides.

If LBJ was a republican instead of democrat then he would be labeled one of the worst presidents by the left. But since he's with the right frat house, all his mistakes are dismissed.

Same goes the other way. When's the last time you heard Fox News or some right wing wacko state that Reagan was for immigration amnesty.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:56 pm 
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HawaiiYou wrote:
If LBJ was a republican instead of democrat then he would be labeled one of the worst presidents by the left.

And as Lyndon Johnson surely would have said, if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

You'll have to excuse HawaiiYou, he just found out John Kennedy died and he's still working through the stages.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:00 am 
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Curious Hair wrote:
HawaiiYou wrote:
If LBJ was a republican instead of democrat then he would be labeled one of the worst presidents by the left.

And as Lyndon Johnson surely would have said, if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

You'll have to excuse HawaiiYou, he just found out John Kennedy died and he's still working through the stages.


thanks for your great contribution to this discussion. :roll:


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:39 am 
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Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Nas wrote:
long time guy wrote:
Ok Kennedy escalated the conflict by increasing the amount of "troops" to 21,000. Johnson didn't even though he made an informal declaration of war, held a draft, and sent guys in for the purpose of waging war. This is strange logic. Again if one is to follow this then Vietnam is technically Ike's war.


Either way it's not LBJ's war. He just tried to win it. He's the best president since FDR and Ike is the 2nd best.


Then what was the Gulf of Tonkin resolution about? If it was not his war then why did he decline to run in 68? U.S role in Vietnam was minimal during Kennedy's tenure in office. Most Americans didn't even know that the United States was in Vietnam and we definitely were not at War. This is revisionism at it's worst.


It was similar to the Afghanistan surge by Obama. He left because he didn't want to do FDR numbers and his health was in decline



21,000 advisers whose expressed purpose was to provide technical assistance to the South Vietnamese army versus 500,000 soldiers, a draft, and an informal declaration of war. That really is some surge.


A guy looking to leave a conflict doesn't generally triple the troop level multiple times. JFK hated the commies too and with CHINA and the Soviets involved JFK would have continued his trend.


HawaiiYou wrote:
JFK did not hate the 'commies' wtf. If he hate the commies he would not have given his American University speech. Do me a favor and listen to that speech and tell me how he hated the commies. He was trying detente with Russia before he died.

This revisionist history is too much.

But that's where history is going. Its all being politicized. People are being fed made up bullshit instead of researching history.

I can't blame Nas for his POV. He's been fed this as so many have on both sides.

If LBJ was a republican instead of democrat then he would be labeled one of the worst presidents by the left. But since he's with the right frat house, all his mistakes are dismissed.

Same goes the other way. When's the last time you heard Fox News or some right wing wacko state that Reagan was for immigration amnesty.


Kennedy hated communists and that's why he tripled the troops in Vietnam multiple times. He escalated things and LBJ just tried to win it for him.

LBJ is the best since FDR and it has nothing to do with being a Democrat. I have 2 republicans in my top 3 since FDR.

_________________
Nas: Blago, who has single handedly destroyed CFMB?

Blago: https://youtube.com/shorts/Lftdxd-YXt8?feature=share

"You can’t love your country only when you win." -President Biden

https://youtu.be/R6e4ruziZBI?si=1G4W1vbh0eGQuHfU


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