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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:41 am 
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/09/27/the-gop-tax-plan-explained-in-simplest-possible-terms/?utm_term=.a2e15f3619de

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The big tax code makeover President Trump and Republicans have been promising for months is finally out.

It's nine pages long. That may sound like a lengthy document, but the final bill in Congress will be hundreds of pages. What the White House released today is a framework. It's a summary of what top Trump officials and congressional Republican leaders have agreed to so far. The Trump administration says it's the job of Congress to flesh out the specifics.

Here are the key takeaways:
-The plan will likely add to America's $20 trillion debt. There are lots of tax cuts spelled out. There are almost no loopholes eliminated.
-The rich make out pretty well. The White House vows poor people won't have to pay more than they do now, but there are few specifics in the plan so far to ensure that.
-Businesses (both small and large) get major tax cuts.
-Most people will pay lower taxes, although it's unclear if the rich get a bigger break than the middle class.
-There are still a lot of details Congress has to figure out.

What's in there for the rich?
The wealthy get a tax cut. They will pay only 35 percent on their income taxes (down from 39.6 percent). At the moment, this rate applies to any income above about $418,000. It's unclear if Congress will tinker with the income level that rate kicks in at. Trump says he would be fine with Congress raising taxes on the rich in the final plan, but he isn't requiring that they do that.

The bigger tax break for the rich is the elimination of the estate tax, sometimes called the “death tax.” It's the tax families currently pay when an asset like a house or ranch worth over $5.49 million is passed down to a heir after someone dies. Trump's plan scraps this tax entirely.


What's in there for the middle class?
This is the giant question mark. There's a lot of details left for Congress to fill out. Under the plan, America will have just three tax rates: 35, 25 and 12 percent, but we don't know yet which rate someone earning $50,000 or $80,000 will pay.

What we do know is the standard deduction (currently $6,350 for individuals and $12,700 for married couples) will nearly double. This means that a married couple earning $24,000 or less or an individual earning $12,000 or less won't pay any taxes. But the plan also eliminates what's known as the additional standard deduction and the popular personal exemption. Some filers may end up worse off after these changes.

The plan also promises a “significant increase” to the child tax credit (it's currently $1,000 per child) and that middle class Americans can keep using the mortgage interest deduction as well as tax breaks for retirement savings (e.g. 401ks) and higher education. But it eliminates the state and local tax deduction, which is used by many in high-tax states like New York and California.

Can I really file my taxes on a postcard?
The “file on a postcard” idea was an exaggeration. The goal now is to get most people's tax returns down to one page.

What about the working poor?
A senior White House official told journalists Tuesday, “We are committed to making the tax code at least as progressive as the current tax code.” Translation: The poor should not end up paying more than they do now. But it's hard to check if that's true because we still don't have enough details.

In theory, increasing the standard deduction should mean that more Americans pay $0 in taxes, but it depends what happens to a lot of other tax provisions (and whether Congress ends up cutting safety net programs that help the poor to pay for tax cuts). Top Republican officials have not decided what to do with the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC), which is widely used by the working poor to help them reduce their tax bill and even get a small amount of money back from the government.

What happens to the Alternative Minimum Tax?
The Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) would go away under the plan. It currently applies mainly to individuals earning more than $130,000 and married couples earning more than $160,00. It was created in the 1970s to prevent wealthier families from taking so many tax breaks that they end up paying little to no taxes, but over the years, the AMT has impacted more and more families.

What happens to big businesses?
America's large corporations will get a big tax cut. The top rate at the moment is 35 percent, one of the highest rates among developed nations. Most U.S. companies don't pay that rate, but it is still a starting point. The Trump plan slashes the rate to 20 percent, just below the average of major developed countries the U.S. competes against.

The White House and Congress promised to close some loopholes that businesses currently enjoy, but no one is saying what those are yet. In fact, the only details we have show MORE business goodies, not less. The plan calls for businesses to be able to write off their investments (e.g. the cost of building a new factory) right away instead of crediting a little bit each year for several years. This is supposed to encourage companies to invest more, which will hopefully create more jobs.

What happens to small businesses?
Small businesses also get a tax cut under the plan. At the moment, many small business owners pay whatever their personal income tax rate is, so some end up paying as much as 39.6 percent. Under this plan, most “pass throughs” (code for small businesses) would pay at the 25 percent rate (the exception is if a small businesses earned very little income, they might be able to pay at the 12 percent rate).

There's concern some rich people, especially hedge fund managers and consultants to the stars, will simply use this as a way to lower their tax bill. Instead of paying at the new 35 percent top income tax rate, they could say all their income is small business income and pay at the 25 percent rate. Trump has promised to fix that problem, but no one is sure how.

How will this plan help growth?
Trump's big claim is that this tax overhaul will unleash economic growth. The United States has been growing at about 2 percent a year lately, below the historic norm. Trump keeps saying this plan will unleash growth of 3 percent — or more.

Economists, even those who work at Wall Street banks and for big companies, only project a modest boost to growth. Estimates range from 2.1 percent to 2.25 percent.

How much will this add to the debt?
Originally, Republican leaders said they would not add $1 to America's debt, but that promise appears to be gone. The White House says it will go along with whatever price tag Congress allows. Right now, Senate Republicans have a deal to add $1.5 trillion to the debt over the next decade, so there's a good chance this tax plan will add to the debt.

What are the pitfalls?
There's a ton we don't know yet. Many on the left are concerned this plan gives away too much to the rich and big businesses. Many across the political spectrum are alarmed that it will likely add to America's already large debt.

:lol:

Weeks of negotiation/meetings for this??? Outstanding creativity on display here.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:49 am 
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Doesn't sound terrible. When the biggest counterargument is basically "Yeah, but rich people may get taxed at a different arbitrary level!" I can't get too worked up.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:06 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Doesn't sound terrible. When the biggest counterargument is basically "Yeah, but rich people may get taxed at a different arbitrary level!" I can't get too worked up.


Yeah it doesn't sound too bad.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:10 am 
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So it's a hand job for the wealthy with nothing to stimulate growth. And will add monstrous amounts to the federal debt. Plus further swamping states.

Typical republican bullshit. It's the Paul Ryan wet dream.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:11 am 
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That was my thought. Sounds okay to me. From what I read he should be able to get some Dems on board.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:12 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
So it's a hand job for the wealthy with nothing to stimulate growth. And will add monstrous amounts to the federal debt. Plus further swamping states.

Typical republican bullshit. It's the Paul Ryan wet dream.
There is a lot for middle class families too.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:14 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
So it's a hand job for the wealthy with nothing to stimulate growth. And will add monstrous amounts to the federal debt. Plus further swamping states.

Typical republican bullshit. It's the Paul Ryan wet dream.



Which will lead to future cuts of programs that benefit the poor and the middle class in the name of fiscal responsibility.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:15 am 
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Nas wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
So it's a hand job for the wealthy with nothing to stimulate growth. And will add monstrous amounts to the federal debt. Plus further swamping states.

Typical republican bullshit. It's the Paul Ryan wet dream.



Which will lead to future cuts of programs that benefit the poor and the middle class in the name of fiscal responsibility.
So now we care about the federal debt?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:22 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Nas wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
So it's a hand job for the wealthy with nothing to stimulate growth. And will add monstrous amounts to the federal debt. Plus further swamping states.

Typical republican bullshit. It's the Paul Ryan wet dream.



Which will lead to future cuts of programs that benefit the poor and the middle class in the name of fiscal responsibility.
So now we care about the federal debt?


The people who cut taxes will in the future.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:24 am 
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Not surprising that Trump finally proposes something to appeal to both sides in some manner and it will be torn to shreds by some.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:25 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
So it's a hand job for the wealthy with nothing to stimulate growth. And will add monstrous amounts to the federal debt. Plus further swamping states.

Typical republican bullshit. It's the Paul Ryan wet dream.
There is a lot for middle class families too.


A taste. Unlike the magnificent smorgasbord spread out for the wealthy who have done little more than hoarding the benefits since 1986.

Voodoo economic policy doesn't work

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:26 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
So it's a hand job for the wealthy with nothing to stimulate growth. And will add monstrous amounts to the federal debt. Plus further swamping states.

Typical republican bullshit. It's the Paul Ryan wet dream.
There is a lot for middle class families too.


A taste. Unlike the magnificent smorgasbord spread out for the wealthy who have done little more than hoarding the benefits since 1986.

Voodoo economic policy doesn't work
I predict that by the time this becomes reality that the tax hit on the really wealthy ends up stronger.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:32 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
So it's a hand job for the wealthy with nothing to stimulate growth. And will add monstrous amounts to the federal debt. Plus further swamping states.

Typical republican bullshit. It's the Paul Ryan wet dream.


The corporate piece is key. We are the only first world country with a global tax system. That forces our companies to park foreign cash overseas, which now total several trillion. That money could and would be brought back to the U.S. for investment. That is why we saw so many inversions. Hell, Aon left Chicago for London simply for this reason. Then our corporate tax rate is among the highest in the world, wholly uncompetitive. Large corporations were able to mitigate this by moving operations offshore into lower tax countries and through transfer pricing. But that means jobs left the U.S. Meanwhile, smaller companies are stuck with high corporate taxes.

These changes alone will result in higher long term growth and investment in the U.S.

Now if these fools were smart, they would pull the plug on pass through treatment. Pass through treatment only made sense when the corporate tax rate and dividend rates were high. Now they are both low and competitive. These changes are going to get bogged down with all the complexities of pass through entities- LLC's and S Corps.

Personally, I am glad the AMT is going bye bye. If the only tax system was the AMT, that would be great because it is a flat near deduction less system. But when you make folks file their taxes in two different ways, well, you are just being mean. I have trouble doing my own taxes, and I am a fucking CPA.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:34 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Not surprising that Trump finally proposes something to appeal to both sides in some manner and it will be torn to shreds by some.


I don't see how this appeals to either side. It's an especially giant fuck you to anyone under 30.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:34 am 
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negotiating. he set it up high, will negotiate to get dems to sign on. not the usual way gvt is done but there isn't a whole lot to get upset about in here. someone said on fb it doesn't do much for the poor but the poor pay almost 0 in federal taxes already.

lol at now the debt is important.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:35 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
So it's a hand job for the wealthy with nothing to stimulate growth. And will add monstrous amounts to the federal debt. Plus further swamping states.

Typical republican bullshit. It's the Paul Ryan wet dream.
There is a lot for middle class families too.


A taste. Unlike the magnificent smorgasbord spread out for the wealthy who have done little more than hoarding the benefits since 1986.

Voodoo economic policy doesn't work
I predict that by the time this becomes reality that the tax hit on the really wealthy ends up stronger.

that's what's going to happen. Trump is a democrat at heart.

I like the kid exemption going up and the standard deduction doubling would be huge. I'm going to get a much larger refund under this new plan as stated.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:38 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Not surprising that Trump finally proposes something to appeal to both sides in some manner and it will be torn to shreds by some.


I don't see how this appeals to either side. It's an especially giant fuck you to anyone under 30.


The increase in the standard deduction is a big hand me out for folks that do not own homes. They are basically making the standard deduction so high that most people will not need to itemize. That alone simplifies the process. And if they do truly get rid of the local tax deduction, nearly everyone will be taking the standard deduction.

With a higher standard deduction, much more of our incomes are exposed to no income tax. In addition, it also prolongs the point at which you hit the second tier tax rate, meaning you will pay 0% or 12% on a larger portion of your income.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:40 am 
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hnd wrote:
negotiating. he set it up high, will negotiate to get dems to sign on. not the usual way gvt is done but there isn't a whole lot to get upset about in here. someone said on fb it doesn't do much for the poor but the poor pay almost 0 in federal taxes already.

lol at now the debt is important.

Exactly.

The main argument against Obamacare is debt. With tax cuts debt doesn't matter? Which is it?

I dunno!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:41 am 
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doubling the standard deduction and increasing the child tax credit? Pass this shit already!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:43 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
hnd wrote:
negotiating. he set it up high, will negotiate to get dems to sign on. not the usual way gvt is done but there isn't a whole lot to get upset about in here. someone said on fb it doesn't do much for the poor but the poor pay almost 0 in federal taxes already.

lol at now the debt is important.

Exactly.

The main argument against Obamacare is debt. With tax cuts debt doesn't matter? Which is it?

I dunno!

that's the main argument against Obamacare? That's not what the crazies I deal with say first when it comes to bashing Obamacare.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:46 am 
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Quote:
The wealthy get a tax cut. They will pay only 35 percent on their income taxes (down from 39.6 percent). Except those employed by NFL Teams. Their rate will be 53%.

Inneresting.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:50 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
hnd wrote:
negotiating. he set it up high, will negotiate to get dems to sign on. not the usual way gvt is done but there isn't a whole lot to get upset about in here. someone said on fb it doesn't do much for the poor but the poor pay almost 0 in federal taxes already.

lol at now the debt is important.

Exactly.

The main argument against Obamacare is debt. With tax cuts debt doesn't matter? Which is it?

I dunno!
There seems to be an optional fourth level of tax rate that can be set if needed that would probably be a much higher rate for the very rich. I didn't totally understand it though as that seems to be the most unknown part of it as of right now.

A tax level starting at $1 million in income would sell much better than the current levels.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:52 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
hnd wrote:
negotiating. he set it up high, will negotiate to get dems to sign on. not the usual way gvt is done but there isn't a whole lot to get upset about in here. someone said on fb it doesn't do much for the poor but the poor pay almost 0 in federal taxes already.

lol at now the debt is important.

Exactly.

The main argument against Obamacare is debt. With tax cuts debt doesn't matter? Which is it?

I dunno!
There seems to be an optional fourth level of tax rate that can be set if needed that would probably be a much higher rate for the very rich. I didn't totally understand it though as that seems to be the most unknown part of it as of right now.

A tax level starting at $1 million in income would sell much better than the current levels.

The frustration isn't the wealthy getting taxes cut.

It's that for months we were sold reform. A remodeling of the tax system.

For the most part its the exact same system except AMT/Estate will be abolished and the brackets flattened.

Hopefully in the upcoming weeks more details are introduced but the initial presentation is simply a massive tax cut.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:54 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
hnd wrote:
negotiating. he set it up high, will negotiate to get dems to sign on. not the usual way gvt is done but there isn't a whole lot to get upset about in here. someone said on fb it doesn't do much for the poor but the poor pay almost 0 in federal taxes already.

lol at now the debt is important.

Exactly.

The main argument against Obamacare is debt. With tax cuts debt doesn't matter? Which is it?

I dunno!
There seems to be an optional fourth level of tax rate that can be set if needed that would probably be a much higher rate for the very rich. I didn't totally understand it though as that seems to be the most unknown part of it as of right now.

A tax level starting at $1 million in income would sell much better than the current levels.

The frustration isn't the wealthy getting taxes cut.

It's that for months we were sold reform. A remodeling of the tax system.

For the most part its the exact same system except AMT/Estate will be abolished and the brackets flattened.

Hopefully in the upcoming weeks more details are introduced but the initial presentation is simply a massive tax cut.

I don't need reform, I don't need remodeling, I just need more of my money back.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:00 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
hnd wrote:
negotiating. he set it up high, will negotiate to get dems to sign on. not the usual way gvt is done but there isn't a whole lot to get upset about in here. someone said on fb it doesn't do much for the poor but the poor pay almost 0 in federal taxes already.

lol at now the debt is important.

Exactly.

The main argument against Obamacare is debt. With tax cuts debt doesn't matter? Which is it?

I dunno!
There seems to be an optional fourth level of tax rate that can be set if needed that would probably be a much higher rate for the very rich. I didn't totally understand it though as that seems to be the most unknown part of it as of right now.

A tax level starting at $1 million in income would sell much better than the current levels.

The frustration isn't the wealthy getting taxes cut.

It's that for months we were sold reform. A remodeling of the tax system.

For the most part its the exact same system except AMT/Estate will be abolished and the brackets flattened.

Hopefully in the upcoming weeks more details are introduced but the initial presentation is simply a massive tax cut.


As Dennis pointed out with this plan less people will itemize. That in itself is reform plus the corporate changes. This plan is Winning.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:01 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Not surprising that Trump finally proposes something to appeal to both sides in some manner and it will be torn to shreds by some.


I don't see how this appeals to either side. It's an especially giant fuck you to anyone under 30.


Yes.

And gen x'ers, it's fast tracking the bankruptcy of social security and Medicare as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:03 am 
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City of Fools wrote:
I don't need reform, I don't need remodeling, I just need more of my money back.

Move.

I hear Kansas is doing just great.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:03 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Not surprising that Trump finally proposes something to appeal to both sides in some manner and it will be torn to shreds by some.


This is an odd take.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:03 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Not surprising that Trump finally proposes something to appeal to both sides in some manner and it will be torn to shreds by some.


I don't see how this appeals to either side. It's an especially giant fuck you to anyone under 30.


Yes.

And gen x'ers, it's fast tracking the bankruptcy of social security and Medicare as well.


Social Security and Medicare are on poor trajectories that has nothing to do with this. They have dedicated funding mechanisms through payroll taxes.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:05 am 
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Kirkwood wrote:
The frustration isn't the wealthy getting taxes cut.

It's that for months we were sold reform. A remodeling of the tax system.

For the most part its the exact same system except AMT/Estate will be abolished and the brackets flattened.

Hopefully in the upcoming weeks more details are introduced but the initial presentation is simply a massive tax cut.

The standard deduction is increased as is the child credit.

Reform doesn't mean making everything completely different. There are at least 5 pretty major changes in this.

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