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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:17 am 
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denisdman wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
That is fucking madness Denis. Why would anyone outside of wealthy trust fund kids subject themselves to that?


People have been speaking with their feet for many decades as the country migrates generally to the south and west. But there are a whole host of reasons for that with taxes being one element. I think the bigger reasons are climate preferences and job prospects. Arizona and Florida soak up lots of Yankees simply for weather related reasons, although both are good places tax wise. Texas and Denver are excellent places for jobs, and Denver has awesome weather (300 plus days of sun) and great outdoor activities.

Having lived here my whole life, I am probably not a good example of those who have fled. However, we will be retiring elsewhere and are close to buying a home out of state. As I have posted in the past, I cannot leave the midwest. I have travelled all over the country in the course of my employment, and quite frankly, I love Midwesterners. My wife and I also love four seasons, so we would never move south.

Taxes are just one part of the overall quality of life discussion. Lower costs of living allow people to do more with their money, like buying a larger piece of property or owning a home of a certain size. So Rick is right in that no one looks back and is excited over paying lower taxes, but they do look back with a certain degree of satisfaction with the quality of life in their retirement years- travel, golf, boats, etc.
The weather is only really a problem in January through March, and there are ways to avoid that when you are retired. We lived in a townhouse community in NY and it wouldn't shock me if half the complex left for Florida for those three months. I think that's the best plan if you can afford it. Downsize to a low maintenance place in the Midwest and then get a place you can go to in a place with little to no snow.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:17 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
That is fucking madness Denis. Why would anyone outside of wealthy trust fund kids subject themselves to that?
I doubt many people when they are old and dying look back on their life and say "Living in an area with low taxes and a city that had manageable debt is one of the highlights of my life".

Where do you live again?
I moved back to the Midwest after living in an even more expensive area than Chicago. I would move to Chicago if the right opportunity came out too and visit fairly often.


Living in a city with low taxes and manageable debt would most likely lead to a better stake of $$$ left over for your family when you die, as well as allow you to spend your income to visit cities like Chicago or other countries more often.

Whereas living in IL will allow you to save less $$$ to pass on to your family, and prevent you from experiencing this country and the world the way MANY would like to.

Brick, I'm seeing this strangulation of the middle class first hand with my family in IL. You cannot convince me living in that state is the bees knees anymore. The financial situation is maddening.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:25 am 
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denisdman wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
That is fucking madness Denis. Why would anyone outside of wealthy trust fund kids subject themselves to that?


When it comes down to it people really just don't want to move away. Usually extended family and familiarity for some place be it Chicago or elsewhere. Sometimes the best thing to do really is Move.

People definitely are fleeing that state, but numbers like those found in the graph just make me think anyone willing to stay behind is a glutton for punishment.


The moment of reckoning that happened in Detroit and Puerto Rico will happen in other places. Benefits were doled out for decades without the funding behind them. Luckily for places like Chicago, chapter 9 will provide a good way to work out those obligations.

There is one wrinkle- my understanding is that Illinois cities cannot file chapter 9 (federal bankruptcy) without approval by the state legislature. And as everyone saw with Detroit's bankruptcy, in federal court, they do not have to fulfill state constitutional pension promises, meaning pensions would get chopped. The state legislature will not approve a Chicago bankruptcy filing. It is going to be an interesting fight that will come to a head probably by 2025 when the city pensions are due to hit zero funding.

Bleak. To say the least.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:25 am 
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Jbi11s wrote:
Living in a city with low taxes and manageable debt would most likely lead to a better stake of $$$ left over for your family when you die, as well as allow you to spend your income to visit cities like Chicago or other countries.
Well, it's often balanced out by higher wages in the area too if you really want to get it down to economics.
Jbi11s wrote:
Whereas living in IL will allow you to save less $$$ to pass on to your family, and prevent you from experiencing this country and the world.
There are places you can live for cheaper than any big city. There is no question about that. Your question was why anyone would choose to live in an expensive area like Chicago and the answer is that there is more to life than a few percentage points in taxes and a cost of living difference. I'd hate it to live in a true small town. The one I live in now is on the low end of population that I would even consider.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:27 am 
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What you describe is happening at a slow burn. You see the population stagnating or even slightly declining. That puts pressure on revenue generation, i.e. lowers the tax base. As a result, more taxes are needed to fund existing commitments. Plus, home prices are lagging national aggregates as less people move here. So high taxes, higher unemployment, less population growth, and on and on. It is a vicious cycle that is tough to break.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:27 am 
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Jbi11s wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Jbi11s wrote:
That is fucking madness Denis. Why would anyone outside of wealthy trust fund kids subject themselves to that?
I doubt many people when they are old and dying look back on their life and say "Living in an area with low taxes and a city that had manageable debt is one of the highlights of my life".

Where do you live again?
I moved back to the Midwest after living in an even more expensive area than Chicago. I would move to Chicago if the right opportunity came out too and visit fairly often.


Living in a city with low taxes and manageable debt would most likely lead to a better stake of $$$ left over for your family when you die, as well as allow you to spend your income to visit cities like Chicago or other countries more often.

Whereas living in IL will allow you to save less $$$ to pass on to your family, and prevent you from experiencing this country and the world the way MANY would like to.

Brick, I'm seeing this strangulation of the middle class first hand with my family in IL. You cannot convince me living in that state is the bees knees anymore. The financial situation is maddening.


My opinion on IL is it is not really the financial situation that has people moving or at least considering it. It is the political situation. A financial situation can ultimately be fixed. Unless you have the same old political situation refusing to do so and keeps getting rubber stamp reelected over and over.

I go to CA a lot. That is also a very Democratic state. They at least though have some semblance of pols working toward something or at least trying different things and ideas. IL makes no meaningful efforts at all to change. Maybe the big problem for IL as compared to CA for example is having only one big metro area ruling.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:39 am 
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Jerry Brown did a nice job when his state faced a crisis. Remember talk of California IOU's issued to people? He really made tough decisions on spending. California's funding mechanism is heavily driven by taxes on capital gains, which boom and bust with the stock market. They were faced with massive revenue shortfalls, and he held the line on spending even as revenues came back.

That state has other structural issues, most notably an inability to build stuff due to environmental and union suits against prospective projects. But hey they have many more natural advantages than Illinois.

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