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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:09 am 
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Don Tiny wrote:
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Hank Scorpio wrote:
You can still respect the founding fathers while recognizing they weren't squeaky clean angels.


Correct. No one in the history of Earth was perfect.

Except for the one guy .... but naturally the Jews still nailed him for something.



That's like saying Benedict Arnold was perfect. Or some other two faced traitor from history.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:53 pm 
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Peter Puck wrote:
It appears we also lost an "e".


Maybe he was talking Gyros and got confused?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:55 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:57 pm 
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nicely put Panther.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:16 pm 
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Panther pislA wrote:
The founding fathers are still heroes.

They did what they had to do to build a society from scratch.

If you scrutinize and take anyone's life out of context you can make them out to be a bad person.

With hindsight, it may sound cold to say, but the fact is, in that day, slavery was like the iphone - it was just a quick way to get things done. Oppression was part of the times. Shit, people legally dueled to the death out on the streets for simple matters of humiliation. These days, that is not the case, so why do we spend time comparing past actions to modern day standards? Why aren't we up Italian peoples' butts for all the people the Roman Empire enslaved, oppressed, and crucified, etc.? Because we understand that they rocked sandals 24/7 back then. That's why.

Its all part of the agenda - i.e. make them pay instead of making myself better, which takes hard work. It is a lament, and lamenting is for lazy losers.

Winners get up, dust themselves off, and move on.

Just be a good person who works hard, and don't worry what's going on in the next guy's cubicle - or hundreds of years ago.

Nobody's coming to bring things back to that era, but if that era didn't happen, none of us would be here enjoying our iphones!

Too bad you are factually wrong in many respects. Hamilton was part of the leadership of an anti-slavery group in N.Y.. Adams was anti-slavery. Slavery was a moral issue raised during the Constitutional Convention, thus the decision on fractional calculations for census purposes and the agreement to kick the can down the road for 20 years in the Constitution itself. Ben Franklin pulled strings to have an anti-slavery bill presented in the 1st Congress, but Madison had it buried in committee. Washington's correspondence reveals he knew slavery was wrong, but he, for financial reasons, did not free his slaves until after his death. Thomas Jefferson was hounded on the issue in private correspondence and he knew slavery was going to have to end. For the sake of keeping the country together, they agreed to kick the can down the road for others to resolve as it was a devisive issue even then.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:30 pm 
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Peter Puck wrote:
Panther pislA wrote:
The founding fathers are still heroes.

They did what they had to do to build a society from scratch.

If you scrutinize and take anyone's life out of context you can make them out to be a bad person.

With hindsight, it may sound cold to say, but the fact is, in that day, slavery was like the iphone - it was just a quick way to get things done. Oppression was part of the times. Shit, people legally dueled to the death out on the streets for simple matters of humiliation. These days, that is not the case, so why do we spend time comparing past actions to modern day standards? Why aren't we up Italian peoples' butts for all the people the Roman Empire enslaved, oppressed, and crucified, etc.? Because we understand that they rocked sandals 24/7 back then. That's why.

Its all part of the agenda - i.e. make them pay instead of making myself better, which takes hard work. It is a lament, and lamenting is for lazy losers.

Winners get up, dust themselves off, and move on.

Just be a good person who works hard, and don't worry what's going on in the next guy's cubicle - or hundreds of years ago.

Nobody's coming to bring things back to that era, but if that era didn't happen, none of us would be here enjoying our iphones!

Too bad you are factually wrong in many respects. Hamilton was part of the leadership of an anti-slavery group in N.Y.. Adams was anti-slavery. Slavery was a moral issue raised during the Constitutional Convention, thus the decision on fractional calculations for census purposes and the agreement to kick the can down the road for 20 years in the Constitution itself. Ben Franklin pulled strings to have an anti-slavery bill presented in the 1st Congress, but Madison had it buried in committee. Washington's correspondence reveals he knew slavery was wrong, but he, for financial reasons, did not free his slaves until after his death. Thomas Jefferson was hounded on the issue in private correspondence and he knew slavery was going to have to end. For the sake of keeping the country together, they agreed to kick the can down the road for others to resolve as it was a devisive issue even then.


and the English had already outlawed it

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:48 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
Panther pislA wrote:
The founding fathers are still heroes.

They did what they had to do to build a society from scratch.

If you scrutinize and take anyone's life out of context you can make them out to be a bad person.

With hindsight, it may sound cold to say, but the fact is, in that day, slavery was like the iphone - it was just a quick way to get things done. Oppression was part of the times. Shit, people legally dueled to the death out on the streets for simple matters of humiliation. These days, that is not the case, so why do we spend time comparing past actions to modern day standards? Why aren't we up Italian peoples' butts for all the people the Roman Empire enslaved, oppressed, and crucified, etc.? Because we understand that they rocked sandals 24/7 back then. That's why.

Its all part of the agenda - i.e. make them pay instead of making myself better, which takes hard work. It is a lament, and lamenting is for lazy losers.

Winners get up, dust themselves off, and move on.

Just be a good person who works hard, and don't worry what's going on in the next guy's cubicle - or hundreds of years ago.

Nobody's coming to bring things back to that era, but if that era didn't happen, none of us would be here enjoying our iphones!

Too bad you are factually wrong in many respects. Hamilton was part of the leadership of an anti-slavery group in N.Y.. Adams was anti-slavery. Slavery was a moral issue raised during the Constitutional Convention, thus the decision on fractional calculations for census purposes and the agreement to kick the can down the road for 20 years in the Constitution itself. Ben Franklin pulled strings to have an anti-slavery bill presented in the 1st Congress, but Madison had it buried in committee. Washington's correspondence reveals he knew slavery was wrong, but he, for financial reasons, did not free his slaves until after his death. Thomas Jefferson was hounded on the issue in private correspondence and he knew slavery was going to have to end. For the sake of keeping the country together, they agreed to kick the can down the road for others to resolve as it was a devisive issue even then.


and the English had already outlawed it

The difference is that English society was already built, and their economy was in full, centuries-long swing. We are talking about the forging of a settlement which was transformed from dust to the world's strongest empire in lightning-quick fashion historically.

iphones, Bro. iphones.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:54 pm 
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Panther pislA wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
Panther pislA wrote:
The founding fathers are still heroes.

They did what they had to do to build a society from scratch.

If you scrutinize and take anyone's life out of context you can make them out to be a bad person.

With hindsight, it may sound cold to say, but the fact is, in that day, slavery was like the iphone - it was just a quick way to get things done. Oppression was part of the times. Shit, people legally dueled to the death out on the streets for simple matters of humiliation. These days, that is not the case, so why do we spend time comparing past actions to modern day standards? Why aren't we up Italian peoples' butts for all the people the Roman Empire enslaved, oppressed, and crucified, etc.? Because we understand that they rocked sandals 24/7 back then. That's why.

Its all part of the agenda - i.e. make them pay instead of making myself better, which takes hard work. It is a lament, and lamenting is for lazy losers.

Winners get up, dust themselves off, and move on.

Just be a good person who works hard, and don't worry what's going on in the next guy's cubicle - or hundreds of years ago.

Nobody's coming to bring things back to that era, but if that era didn't happen, none of us would be here enjoying our iphones!

Too bad you are factually wrong in many respects. Hamilton was part of the leadership of an anti-slavery group in N.Y.. Adams was anti-slavery. Slavery was a moral issue raised during the Constitutional Convention, thus the decision on fractional calculations for census purposes and the agreement to kick the can down the road for 20 years in the Constitution itself. Ben Franklin pulled strings to have an anti-slavery bill presented in the 1st Congress, but Madison had it buried in committee. Washington's correspondence reveals he knew slavery was wrong, but he, for financial reasons, did not free his slaves until after his death. Thomas Jefferson was hounded on the issue in private correspondence and he knew slavery was going to have to end. For the sake of keeping the country together, they agreed to kick the can down the road for others to resolve as it was a devisive issue even then.


and the English had already outlawed it

The difference is that English society was already built, and their economy was in full, centuries-long swing. We are talking about the forging of a settlement which was transformed from dust to the world's strongest empire in lightning-quick fashion historically.

iphones, Bro. iphones.


the morality or immorality of it was already debated in western society

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:01 pm 
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England had no need for slavery. Actually they had a huge unemployment and poverty problem. They had a damn civil war of their own. Social unrest. Of course they outlawed slavery. Morals may or may not have had anything to do with it. It is ridiculous to think that English society in England had better morals than English society in the colonies.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:05 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
England had no need for slavery. Actually they had a huge unemployment and poverty problem. They had a damn civil war of their own. Social unrest. Of course they outlawed slavery. Morals may or may not have had anything to do with it. It is ridiculous to think that English society in England had better morals than English society in the colonies.

they already had their slaves in country....as any william blake poem or dickens novel shows...blimey! that's some bleak bleedin' lit'rature.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:47 pm 
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good dolphin wrote:
Panther pislA wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Peter Puck wrote:
Panther pislA wrote:
The founding fathers are still heroes.

They did what they had to do to build a society from scratch.

If you scrutinize and take anyone's life out of context you can make them out to be a bad person.

With hindsight, it may sound cold to say, but the fact is, in that day, slavery was like the iphone - it was just a quick way to get things done. Oppression was part of the times. Shit, people legally dueled to the death out on the streets for simple matters of humiliation. These days, that is not the case, so why do we spend time comparing past actions to modern day standards? Why aren't we up Italian peoples' butts for all the people the Roman Empire enslaved, oppressed, and crucified, etc.? Because we understand that they rocked sandals 24/7 back then. That's why.

Its all part of the agenda - i.e. make them pay instead of making myself better, which takes hard work. It is a lament, and lamenting is for lazy losers.

Winners get up, dust themselves off, and move on.

Just be a good person who works hard, and don't worry what's going on in the next guy's cubicle - or hundreds of years ago.

Nobody's coming to bring things back to that era, but if that era didn't happen, none of us would be here enjoying our iphones!

Too bad you are factually wrong in many respects. Hamilton was part of the leadership of an anti-slavery group in N.Y.. Adams was anti-slavery. Slavery was a moral issue raised during the Constitutional Convention, thus the decision on fractional calculations for census purposes and the agreement to kick the can down the road for 20 years in the Constitution itself. Ben Franklin pulled strings to have an anti-slavery bill presented in the 1st Congress, but Madison had it buried in committee. Washington's correspondence reveals he knew slavery was wrong, but he, for financial reasons, did not free his slaves until after his death. Thomas Jefferson was hounded on the issue in private correspondence and he knew slavery was going to have to end. For the sake of keeping the country together, they agreed to kick the can down the road for others to resolve as it was a devisive issue even then.


and the English had already outlawed it

The difference is that English society was already built, and their economy was in full, centuries-long swing. We are talking about the forging of a settlement which was transformed from dust to the world's strongest empire in lightning-quick fashion historically.

iphones, Bro. iphones.


the morality or immorality of it was already debated in western society

I would argue that across the Atlantic there existed an entirely different form of "society".

For starters, in Europe there were no natives left to negotiate with, befriend, get massacred by, or eliminate.

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