It is currently Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:26 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 263 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:03 pm
Posts: 42960
Frank Coztansa wrote:
It is not nearly as bad as some people in this thread think, but on the flip side, "awesome" and "beautiful" are not accurate descriptions of the place.

The house is breathtaking.

_________________
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
I am not a legal expert, how many times do I have to say it?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:46 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 76917
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
Douchebag wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
It is not nearly as bad as some people in this thread think, but on the flip side, "awesome" and "beautiful" are not accurate descriptions of the place.

The house is breathtaking.


:lol:

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:46 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:45 pm
Posts: 37205
Location: Lovetron
pizza_Place: Malnati's
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Douchebag wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
It is not nearly as bad as some people in this thread think, but on the flip side, "awesome" and "beautiful" are not accurate descriptions of the place.

The house is breathtaking.


:lol:


:lol: :lol:

_________________
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The victims are the American People and the Republic itself.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:46 pm
Posts: 32953
pizza_Place: Gioacchino's
It's worse than all 3 of these.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 63#photo13
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 54#photo25
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 2204-85712

It needs about 175-200k worth of work and lacks a great room. The kitchen is probably about 13 x 17 but the space seems narrow. The breakfast nook makes it a little more odd and it is closed off from the family room. I can't tell where the offices are located in the floor plan. The price will have to drop considerably. It wouldn't be terrible but considering what else is out there it's not a good house.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:26 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 76917
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
Spaulding wrote:
It's worse than all 3 of these.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 63#photo13
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 54#photo25
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 2204-85712

It needs about 175-200k worth of work and lacks a great room. The kitchen is probably about 13 x 17 but the space seems narrow. The breakfast nook makes it a little more odd and it is closed off from the family room. I can't tell where the offices are located in the floor plan. The price will have to drop considerably. It wouldn't be terrible but considering what else is out there it's not a good house.



It is worse than the first and last. It's not nearly as bad as the second one, which is frankly, fucking atrocious.

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:34 pm 
Offline
1000 CLUB

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:29 pm
Posts: 33833
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
You guys are insane. That looks like an awesome house needing only some cosmetic changes for personal taste...like every other house on the market. First thing everyone does upon buying is to install new carpeting and refinishing the floors. Then you end up living with your choices far beyond the date they become obsolete.



It's certainly not the worst McMansion I've ever seen, but it does have architectural oddities like mismatched windows, unrelated gables, and various materials on the facade. I wouldn't call it an atrocity on the level that qualifies it for McMansion Hell, but I'd rather live in a typical Chicago bungalow.


It's not a horrible house. But when the asking price is 1 million you can find better for that price. There was a house by me on the market for 3 years. Newly built. No one had ever lived in it. They were asking 900k. I looked it up and they settled for 700k a couple of months ago. I looked at the pictures on line. Much nicer then Pappyland.

If you're looking for a million dollar house, you're gonna want the ones that were built within the last few years. At least I would. Because everything is new and modern, obviously.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:29 pm
Posts: 38067
pizza_Place: Lou Malnatis
Park Ridge baby . It sells itself .

_________________
Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:54 am
Posts: 22706
pizza_Place: A few...
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
It's worse than all 3 of these.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 63#photo13
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 54#photo25
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 2204-85712

It needs about 175-200k worth of work and lacks a great room. The kitchen is probably about 13 x 17 but the space seems narrow. The breakfast nook makes it a little more odd and it is closed off from the family room. I can't tell where the offices are located in the floor plan. The price will have to drop considerably. It wouldn't be terrible but considering what else is out there it's not a good house.



It is worse than the first and last. It's not nearly as bad as the second one, which is frankly, fucking atrocious.


So what's the deal with these homes? (1st and 2nd on Spaulding's list). I'm assuming there were older homes on the lots that were knocked down and rebuilt with these?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:45 am
Posts: 2946
pizza_Place: Drag's
It looks like it was thrown on the market pursuant to a financial emergency--they did nothing to prepare it for sale. It looks like it would smell weird.

_________________
Soccer 1,2,3
Spanish Honor Society 1,2,3,4
Forensics 1,2,3,4

"Smiles with Nostrils"

"...no Hmong, go find some blacks"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:10 pm
Posts: 38609
Location: "Across 110th Street"
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
It's worse than all 3 of these.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 63#photo13
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 54#photo25
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 2204-85712

It needs about 175-200k worth of work and lacks a great room. The kitchen is probably about 13 x 17 but the space seems narrow. The breakfast nook makes it a little more odd and it is closed off from the family room. I can't tell where the offices are located in the floor plan. The price will have to drop considerably. It wouldn't be terrible but considering what else is out there it's not a good house.



It is worse than the first and last. It's not nearly as bad as the second one, which is frankly, fucking atrocious.


I can't stand the third one, and both the subject and the first two are everywhere in the city and suburbs, and no worse than most of the poorly constructed crap put up over the last 35 years imo

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 27579
pizza_Place: nick n vito's
Spaulding wrote:
It's worse than all 3 of these.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 63#photo13
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 54#photo25
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 2204-85712

It needs about 175-200k worth of work and lacks a great room. The kitchen is probably about 13 x 17 but the space seems narrow. The breakfast nook makes it a little more odd and it is closed off from the family room. I can't tell where the offices are located in the floor plan. The price will have to drop considerably. It wouldn't be terrible but considering what else is out there it's not a good house.




Location is everything in real estate..i just looked at the pics of those 3 links ..i didnt go past pic 1..all had asphalt shingles..North has a cedar shake roof.. That big piece of shit frame house is nowhere near as nice as Norths. Atleast the first 2 were brick n stone

_________________
The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Laurence Holmes is a fucking weirdo, a nerd in denial, and a wannabe. Not a very good radio host either.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:29 pm
Posts: 54223
Location: Pearl Harbor, Waukesha, and other things that make no sense
pizza_Place: Lou Malnati's
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
It is worse than the first and last. It's not nearly as bad as the second one, which is frankly, fucking atrocious.

You don't like the home theater for exactly two people?

_________________
Molly Lambert wrote:
The future holds the possibility to be great or terrible, and since it has not yet occurred it remains simultaneously both.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:35 pm
Posts: 80020
Curious Hair wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
It is worse than the first and last. It's not nearly as bad as the second one, which is frankly, fucking atrocious.

You don't like the home theater for exactly two people?


It did have that boiler room employee feel to it

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:46 pm
Posts: 32953
pizza_Place: Gioacchino's
I didn't look at the locations but assume they are in the same neighborhood. If North has a good/better location that works in his favor. If I'm looking at houses and those 4 are on the list and locations are almost the same, North's gets crossed off quickly. The others have their issues as does North's. His lacks a great room and needs a lot of work. That will never be a 1.2M house IMO.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:10 pm
Posts: 38609
Location: "Across 110th Street"
Spaulding wrote:
I didn't look at the locations but assume they are in the same neighborhood. If North has a good/better location that works in his favor. If I'm looking at houses and those 4 are on the list and locations are almost the same, North's gets crossed off quickly. The others have their issues as does North's. His lacks a great room and needs a lot of work. That will never be a 1.2M house IMO.


ReMax Spaulding? If so, good for you?

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:40 pm
Posts: 15961
pizza_Place: Boni Vino
Whoever did the wainscoting in the first house should be shot. Could they have drawn any more attention to the electrical outlets?

This thread cries out for a bigfan analysis.

_________________
To IkeSouth, bigfan wrote:
Are you stoned or pissed off, or both, when you create these postings?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:50 am
Posts: 11177
Location: Schaumburg
pizza_Place: Palermo's
Jaw Breaker wrote:
Whoever did the wainscoting in the first house should be shot. Could they have drawn any more attention to the electrical outlets?


That is odd.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 27579
pizza_Place: nick n vito's
Spaulding wrote:
I didn't look at the locations but assume they are in the same neighborhood. If North has a good/better location that works in his favor. If I'm looking at houses and those 4 are on the list and locations are almost the same, North's gets crossed off quickly. The others have their issues as does North's. His lacks a great room and needs a lot of work. That will never be a 1.2M house IMO.



You gotta have huge balls or don't want to move if you ask that much for a vinyl sided house.

I prefer brick n stone but if you are going siding atleast go smart siding or hardy board. This home is much newer and less expensive..it's also modern throughout..nice roof lines too.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 02#photo27

_________________
The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Laurence Holmes is a fucking weirdo, a nerd in denial, and a wannabe. Not a very good radio host either.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:07 pm 
Offline
100000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:17 pm
Posts: 101761
pizza_Place: Vito & Nick's
Jaw Breaker wrote:
This thread cries out for a bigfan analysis.
Go tankless.

_________________
ltg wrote:
[Fields will] be the starting QB on an NFL roster at the start of next season. Book It!
Caller Bob wrote:
There will never be an effective vaccine. I'll never get one anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:10 pm
Posts: 38609
Location: "Across 110th Street"
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Jaw Breaker wrote:
This thread cries out for a bigfan analysis.
Go tankless.


Cue Darko

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:46 pm
Posts: 32953
pizza_Place: Gioacchino's
Regular Reader wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
I didn't look at the locations but assume they are in the same neighborhood. If North has a good/better location that works in his favor. If I'm looking at houses and those 4 are on the list and locations are almost the same, North's gets crossed off quickly. The others have their issues as does North's. His lacks a great room and needs a lot of work. That will never be a 1.2M house IMO.


ReMax Spaulding? If so, good for you?


No, I just like looking at houses. :lol: We had to do a ton of work on our first and second house so I've spent a lot of time on houzz and realtor web sites. If I see a house for sale I usually look and I like some of the HG shows. It interests me. I don't know much about park ridge. As most here on anything I'm no expert, I just have opinions.

That 1975 Touhy is kind of weird. Odd that they built a house with a heavy modern feel as it limits buyers. Touhy is pretty busy no? And I might have tried to steal a couple feet from the 17 X 10 room (or the master) and made a 14 X 11 room instead of 2 12 X 11s. The Kitchen is small and not attached to the family room and large living rooms are typically a waste of space. They've listed it before and already dropped the price at least 25K. I'd pass.

Roofs and siding and stuff like that are nice touches/bonuses but I don't think it's at the top of the list for most people.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 27579
pizza_Place: nick n vito's
Spaulding got a lil Marie Schrader in her. :lol:

_________________
The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Laurence Holmes is a fucking weirdo, a nerd in denial, and a wannabe. Not a very good radio host either.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:26 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 76917
Location: Chicago Heights
pizza_Place: Aurelio's
312player wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
I didn't look at the locations but assume they are in the same neighborhood. If North has a good/better location that works in his favor. If I'm looking at houses and those 4 are on the list and locations are almost the same, North's gets crossed off quickly. The others have their issues as does North's. His lacks a great room and needs a lot of work. That will never be a 1.2M house IMO.



You gotta have huge balls or don't want to move if you ask that much for a vinyl sided house.

I prefer brick n stone but if you are going siding atleast go smart siding or hardy board. This home is much newer and less expensive..it's also modern throughout..nice roof lines too.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 02#photo27


It looks like it was designed by a five year old playing with Legos. Plus it's on Touhy.

_________________
His mind is not for rent to any God or government.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:29 pm
Posts: 54223
Location: Pearl Harbor, Waukesha, and other things that make no sense
pizza_Place: Lou Malnati's
Jaw Breaker wrote:
This thread cries out for a bigfan analysis.

PAPPY, MY GUY, always said He would still be great on the Score WITH THE RIGHT PEOPLE...same goes for stageing houses for sale!! Cant do it all yourself...OR WITH ANNIE AND FRED, wonder if Hubes did the beddrom! ok, First Thing, masters bedroom, rip up the teal carpet, too 1993, wheres Kendall Gill (ILL INI GUY!) and the Hornets? Wallpapers gotta go, looks like an Italian Place in a Rosemont Strip Mall, cant keep it ahrd when Im worried about a guy who knows a guy! Okay! KITCHEN! DIASTER! Why is Fridge so far from STove??? Fake plants by the sink, not foolign anymone...Mike! Your sponge-painting the wlals away from maximum 90s here!! Leper carpet in the fronts, IT'S ALL A PROBLEM, like iping yiour feet on a New Jersey Whore. OFFICE -> take down Daily Herald backdrop, don't give away free advertising, plus gives away my idea for produce placement in real estate listenings. Bcak yard wireing, NOT GOOD, looks like JUAN did it. Overall, not bad, hope to see Pappy in VEGAS, possibly at a Sox game!!!

_________________
Molly Lambert wrote:
The future holds the possibility to be great or terrible, and since it has not yet occurred it remains simultaneously both.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 27579
pizza_Place: nick n vito's
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
312player wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
I didn't look at the locations but assume they are in the same neighborhood. If North has a good/better location that works in his favor. If I'm looking at houses and those 4 are on the list and locations are almost the same, North's gets crossed off quickly. The others have their issues as does North's. His lacks a great room and needs a lot of work. That will never be a 1.2M house IMO.



You gotta have huge balls or don't want to move if you ask that much for a vinyl sided house.

I prefer brick n stone but if you are going siding atleast go smart siding or hardy board. This home is much newer and less expensive..it's also modern throughout..nice roof lines too.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 02#photo27


It looks like it was designed by a five year old playing with Legos. Plus it's on Touhy.



The inside is what north needs to copy..dark stain is in, white cabinets in..glass tile backsplash.

_________________
The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Laurence Holmes is a fucking weirdo, a nerd in denial, and a wannabe. Not a very good radio host either.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:04 pm
Posts: 12668
Location: Lake of the Ozarks (whenever I can)
pizza_Place: Mauries Table
312player wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
312player wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
I didn't look at the locations but assume they are in the same neighborhood. If North has a good/better location that works in his favor. If I'm looking at houses and those 4 are on the list and locations are almost the same, North's gets crossed off quickly. The others have their issues as does North's. His lacks a great room and needs a lot of work. That will never be a 1.2M house IMO.



You gotta have huge balls or don't want to move if you ask that much for a vinyl sided house.

I prefer brick n stone but if you are going siding atleast go smart siding or hardy board. This home is much newer and less expensive..it's also modern throughout..nice roof lines too.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 02#photo27


It looks like it was designed by a five year old playing with Legos. Plus it's on Touhy.



The inside is what north needs to copy..dark stain is in, white cabinets in..glass tile backsplash.

Somebody watches a lot of HGTV. Are you also a fan of black stainless steel appliances?

_________________
If we nominate Trump we will get destroyed & we'll deserve it.- L Graham
I’m going to enforce all laws concerning the protection of classified information. No one will be above the law.- DJT 2016
MAY THEY ROT IN HELL. AGAIN, MERRY CHRISTMAS!- DJT 12/25/23


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:10 pm
Posts: 38609
Location: "Across 110th Street"
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
312player wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
I didn't look at the locations but assume they are in the same neighborhood. If North has a good/better location that works in his favor. If I'm looking at houses and those 4 are on the list and locations are almost the same, North's gets crossed off quickly. The others have their issues as does North's. His lacks a great room and needs a lot of work. That will never be a 1.2M house IMO.



You gotta have huge balls or don't want to move if you ask that much for a vinyl sided house.

I prefer brick n stone but if you are going siding atleast go smart siding or hardy board. This home is much newer and less expensive..it's also modern throughout..nice roof lines too.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 02#photo27


It looks like it was designed by a five year old playing with Legos. Plus it's on Touhy.


You couldn't be more correct. The desperation to build everywhere in certain markets kills me

_________________
There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:29 pm
Posts: 54223
Location: Pearl Harbor, Waukesha, and other things that make no sense
pizza_Place: Lou Malnati's
That looks like three houses poorly grafted together.

_________________
Molly Lambert wrote:
The future holds the possibility to be great or terrible, and since it has not yet occurred it remains simultaneously both.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:16 pm
Posts: 81627
So are we buying it as a board or not?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 27579
pizza_Place: nick n vito's
Zippy-The-Pinhead wrote:
312player wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
312player wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
I didn't look at the locations but assume they are in the same neighborhood. If North has a good/better location that works in his favor. If I'm looking at houses and those 4 are on the list and locations are almost the same, North's gets crossed off quickly. The others have their issues as does North's. His lacks a great room and needs a lot of work. That will never be a 1.2M house IMO.



You gotta have huge balls or don't want to move if you ask that much for a vinyl sided house.

I prefer brick n stone but if you are going siding atleast go smart siding or hardy board. This home is much newer and less expensive..it's also modern throughout..nice roof lines too.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandho ... 02#photo27


It looks like it was designed by a five year old playing with Legos. Plus it's on Touhy.



The inside is what north needs to copy..dark stain is in, white cabinets in..glass tile backsplash.

Somebody watches a lot of HGTV. Are you also a fan of black stainless steel appliances?



I work in these houses daily, none are spec..i see what homeowners been picking out pretty steadily the last few years... Me personaly. It's a god damn shame to paint oak imo.

_________________
The Original Kid Cairo wrote:
Laurence Holmes is a fucking weirdo, a nerd in denial, and a wannabe. Not a very good radio host either.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 263 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Sneakers O'Toole and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group