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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:33 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
I'm not assuming that there are not Muslims in Sauganash.


I think the guy that built that horrible house on the north side of Devon just west of Cicero with all the panels of animals built into the brick is a Hindu. He could be Muslim though.


Well, we now know who his attorney was. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:33 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
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I help to establish mosques.


I'm not sure why but this has me laughing so hard I might piss my pants.


In appreciation they made me a t shirt that says “I came here to chew gum and establish mosques...and I’m all out of gum”

:lol: You could probably sell such a t-shirt and make a tidy profit. Especially if you change it to Jewish churches. Those people have all the money in the world, and they'd definitely buy that shit.


Last edited by tommy on Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:35 am 
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Seacrest played the "I have Muslim neighbors" card!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:37 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Seacrest played the "I have Muslim neighbors" card!


Actually, we have had that discussion here before.

But, let me know when the price of real estate in your head goes up Brick. It's my own version of Bitcoin. :lol: Real small bits.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:40 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Seacrest played the "I have Muslim neighbors" card!


Actually, we have had that discussion here before.

But, let me know when the price of real estate in your head goes up Brick. It's my own version of Bitcoin. :lol: Real small bits.
The real estate in my head that you occupy also has Muslim neighbors.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:05 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Seacrest played the "I have Muslim neighbors" card!


Actually, we have had that discussion here before.

But, let me know when the price of real estate in your head goes up Brick. It's my own version of Bitcoin. :lol: Real small bits.
The real estate in my head that you occupy also has Muslim neighbors.


I'm glad to see you acknowledge what everyone else has known for years.

Let me know the price of the real estate, I'll sell it back to you.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:12 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
I help to establish mosques.


And we thank you. Now kindly remit your jizya to Nas, Seacrest, or JORR.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:34 am 
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Seacrest wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Seacrest wrote:
[You say it is different and then describe an identical situation.

The first generation here is always betwixt and between. The second generation keeps the old traditions alive for nostalgia and reverence of their ancestors but are fully immersed in the US. The third generation is embarrassed by the old traditions that are mocked by the suburban group they wish to become.


Exactly. Look at Muslims. The first generation wanted to buy into American culture, and then by third generation the grandkids are trying to buy Stinger missiles and throwing pressure cookers at marathon runners.


you would be hard pressed to find a third generation jihadist. That is 1-2 generation stuff. Third generation isn't even going to a mosque.


The 3rd generation is absolutely going to the mosque for Friday prayer for sure.[/quote]

Unless you have something to support your disagreement we are both talking from personal experience. My personal experience has been far different than yours.[/quote]

I have/and do live in far more diverse neighborhoods than you. I have had, and do currently have Muslim neighbors. Our children have gone and currently go to school with MANY 3rd generation practicing Muslim children.[/quote]

You love your assumptions.

My kid also goes to school with many Muslims which necessarily means that I have muslim neighbors. I help to establish mosques. Not a mosque and not a handful of mosques. I have appeared on muslim radio. Leaders in the community have lamented to me that 3rd generation children aren't close to their religion.

So, as I said, my personal and at least equal experience with the subject matter to you is different but I am open to being turned if you have supporting materials[/quote]

I'm not assuming that there are not Muslims in Sauganash. Nor am I assuming that your family doesn't spend anytime with them.

Congrats on knowing some Muslim guys to the whitest guy on the board.[/quote]

a salaam alaikum

Keep up the struggle.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:16 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Keep up the struggle.


Allahu akbar, brother!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:31 am 
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Gotta be honest. The multi name and avatar make me laugh.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:22 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

And of course we should take immigrants from horrible places, but we should make sure we can assimilate them. I think immigrant enclaves will tear America apart. And these enclaves are different than the Irish ghettoes or Little Italys in that the recent immigrants don't seem to have any desire to assimilate. We have to hop their children will against the wishes of the parents. It is a country's right to regulate who comes and how many.


About two years ago I heard a sociologist speak about immigration issues. Over the course of American immigration patterns, at any given time the opinion was that the prior immigrant group was a benefit to the country, but the current immigrant group was a detriment to the country. This has been the case regardless of time and regardless of country of origin.

There is no reason to think that someone from Haiti, Ghana, or El Salvador will be any less inclined to adhere to American values and desire to become part of the American culture than someone from Greece, Italy, or Poland was/is.

The same tired anecdotes about current ethnic groups not wanting to assimilate has been well worn and proven to be totally inaccurate.

Remember when Al Smith couldn't get elected president because the country thought that an Irish Catholic would be more loyal to the Pope, than he would be to America? I agree, it seems silly.

Little Italys, Chinatowns, Greektown, all of those are tourist attractions in various cities, 100, or 70, or 50 years ago, they were just poverty stricken parts of major cities where an ethnic group congregated for support, protection, assistance, and a shared struggle. I'm guessing 35 years from now it's going to be the same thing with Little El Slavadors, Little Africas, etc.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:37 pm 
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Drunk Squirrel wrote:
Gotta be honest. The multi name and avatar make me laugh.


That makes two of us :lol: :oops: :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:38 pm 
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One Post wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

And of course we should take immigrants from horrible places, but we should make sure we can assimilate them. I think immigrant enclaves will tear America apart. And these enclaves are different than the Irish ghettoes or Little Italys in that the recent immigrants don't seem to have any desire to assimilate. We have to hop their children will against the wishes of the parents. It is a country's right to regulate who comes and how many.


About two years ago I heard a sociologist speak about immigration issues. Over the course of American immigration patterns, at any given time the opinion was that the prior immigrant group was a benefit to the country, but the current immigrant group was a detriment to the country. This has been the case regardless of time and regardless of country of origin.

There is no reason to think that someone from Haiti, Ghana, or El Salvador will be any less inclined to adhere to American values and desire to become part of the American culture than someone from Greece, Italy, or Poland was/is.

The same tired anecdotes about current ethnic groups not wanting to assimilate has been well worn and proven to be totally inaccurate.

Remember when Al Smith couldn't get elected president because the country thought that an Irish Catholic would be more loyal to the Pope, than he would be to America? I agree, it seems silly.

Little Italys, Chinatowns, Greektown, all of those are tourist attractions in various cities, 100, or 70, or 50 years ago, they were just poverty stricken parts of major cities where an ethnic group congregated for support, protection, assistance, and a shared struggle. I'm guessing 35 years from now it's going to be the same thing with Little El Slavadors, Little Africas, etc.

You may be right, but contexts change, and so this group of immigrants may be different. We can't assume they won't be. They are also treated differently by the Federal and local governments. The US is not the same country is was in 1880 or 1920; we also have no plans to suffer through two world wars and a Great Depression in order to halt immigration and Americanize the newcomers. It may very well happen that they turn out like the old immigrants, but that is not a given; the variables are so much different.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:55 pm 
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tommy wrote:
One Post wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

And of course we should take immigrants from horrible places, but we should make sure we can assimilate them. I think immigrant enclaves will tear America apart. And these enclaves are different than the Irish ghettoes or Little Italys in that the recent immigrants don't seem to have any desire to assimilate. We have to hop their children will against the wishes of the parents. It is a country's right to regulate who comes and how many.


About two years ago I heard a sociologist speak about immigration issues. Over the course of American immigration patterns, at any given time the opinion was that the prior immigrant group was a benefit to the country, but the current immigrant group was a detriment to the country. This has been the case regardless of time and regardless of country of origin.

There is no reason to think that someone from Haiti, Ghana, or El Salvador will be any less inclined to adhere to American values and desire to become part of the American culture than someone from Greece, Italy, or Poland was/is.

The same tired anecdotes about current ethnic groups not wanting to assimilate has been well worn and proven to be totally inaccurate.

Remember when Al Smith couldn't get elected president because the country thought that an Irish Catholic would be more loyal to the Pope, than he would be to America? I agree, it seems silly.

Little Italys, Chinatowns, Greektown, all of those are tourist attractions in various cities, 100, or 70, or 50 years ago, they were just poverty stricken parts of major cities where an ethnic group congregated for support, protection, assistance, and a shared struggle. I'm guessing 35 years from now it's going to be the same thing with Little El Slavadors, Little Africas, etc.

You may be right, but contexts change, and so this group of immigrants may be different. We can't assume they won't be. They are also treated differently by the Federal and local governments. The US is not the same country is was in 1880 or 1920; we also have no plans to suffer through two world wars and a Great Depression in order to halt immigration and Americanize the newcomers. It may very well happen that they turn out like the old immigrants, but that is not a given; the variables are so much different.

Permanent unemployment also is unprecedented here. No way to use the past to predict a short term future where many who want to work may never again in a job equal to their experience.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:09 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Drunk Squirrel wrote:
Gotta be honest. The multi name and avatar make me laugh.


That makes two of us :lol: :oops: :lol:



Saw a the name as newest member and quietly laughed while drinking my morning coffee. When I saw the avatar it wasn’t so quiet and my wife asked me what was so funny. I tried to explain. She mumbled something about being married to a child. I almost felt shame and then I laughed louder. She wouldn’t have me any other way.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:34 pm 
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Regular Reader wrote:
Drunk Squirrel wrote:
Gotta be honest. The multi name and avatar make me laugh.


That makes two of us :lol: :oops: :lol:


That makes three of us. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:48 pm 
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Drunk Squirrel wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
Drunk Squirrel wrote:
Gotta be honest. The multi name and avatar make me laugh.


That makes two of us :lol: :oops: :lol:



Saw a the name as newest member and quietly laughed while drinking my morning coffee. When I saw the avatar it wasn’t so quiet and my wife asked me what was so funny. I tried to explain. She mumbled something about being married to a child. I almost felt shame and then I laughed louder. She wouldn’t have me any other way.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I love CFMB.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:49 pm 
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RIP my short lived mult Osama Ben Wallace

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:01 pm 
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Douchebag wrote:
RIP my short lived mult Osama Ben Wallace


No one's stopping you now...

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The victims are the American People and the Republic itself.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:28 pm 
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Maybe the reason for the poverty is they make towns like San Francisco map out where homeless people shit in the street?

https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/h ... iscos-poop

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:38 pm 
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But now a handful of governors of the southern welfare states are declaring states of emergency because, snow.

Not without offsets to the federal budget benefiting those parasites I say.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:50 am 
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Regular Reader wrote:
But now a handful of governors of the southern welfare states are declaring states of emergency because, snow.

Not without offsets to the federal budget benefiting those parasites I say.


Yeah let em shit in the streets so they can embrace progressive values

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:58 am 
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Guess you're not "open for business" when you have two inches of snow. Biiiiiitch

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:53 am 
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ToxicMasculinity wrote:
Regular Reader wrote:
But now a handful of governors of the southern welfare states are declaring states of emergency because, snow.

Not without offsets to the federal budget benefiting those parasites I say.


Yeah let em shit in the streets so they can embrace progressive values


Sounds positively small government to me. That tea party types claim to love, until they defend their welfare largesse

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:25 pm 
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tommy wrote:
One Post wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

And of course we should take immigrants from horrible places, but we should make sure we can assimilate them. I think immigrant enclaves will tear America apart. And these enclaves are different than the Irish ghettoes or Little Italys in that the recent immigrants don't seem to have any desire to assimilate. We have to hop their children will against the wishes of the parents. It is a country's right to regulate who comes and how many.


About two years ago I heard a sociologist speak about immigration issues. Over the course of American immigration patterns, at any given time the opinion was that the prior immigrant group was a benefit to the country, but the current immigrant group was a detriment to the country. This has been the case regardless of time and regardless of country of origin.

There is no reason to think that someone from Haiti, Ghana, or El Salvador will be any less inclined to adhere to American values and desire to become part of the American culture than someone from Greece, Italy, or Poland was/is.

The same tired anecdotes about current ethnic groups not wanting to assimilate has been well worn and proven to be totally inaccurate.

Remember when Al Smith couldn't get elected president because the country thought that an Irish Catholic would be more loyal to the Pope, than he would be to America? I agree, it seems silly.

Little Italys, Chinatowns, Greektown, all of those are tourist attractions in various cities, 100, or 70, or 50 years ago, they were just poverty stricken parts of major cities where an ethnic group congregated for support, protection, assistance, and a shared struggle. I'm guessing 35 years from now it's going to be the same thing with Little El Slavadors, Little Africas, etc.

You may be right, but contexts change, and so this group of immigrants may be different. We can't assume they won't be. They are also treated differently by the Federal and local governments. The US is not the same country is was in 1880 or 1920; we also have no plans to suffer through two world wars and a Great Depression in order to halt immigration and Americanize the newcomers. It may very well happen that they turn out like the old immigrants, but that is not a given; the variables are so much different.


A few things to unpack here so I'll take them one at a time:

1. "We have no plans ...to halt immigration and Americanize the newcomers" - I'm interested in this Americanization program that you speak of. Was it a federal government program? Was it a state program? Was it a federal/state joint effort? Was private industry involved? What agencies administered this Americanization plan? I'm fairly knowledgeable about US History but I have never hear of this Americanization program that took place sometime in the 20th century. Please enlighten me. I'd like to know who proposed this program, was it done prior to the 20th century? There were immigrants prior to the 20th century, was the same program used to Americanize them?

2. "The US is not the same country as it was in 1880, or 1920" - Agreed, this applies as much to 1950, 1972, 1985, 2003, as it does to 2018. I don't get what you are saying, are you saying that the only successful immigration in US history took place in 1880 or 1920? I don't have the stats on hand to back this up, but I'd guess there were about 4 Koreans in the United States in 1920, and probably 3 people from Vietnam, the majority of immigrants from those countries arrived in the US much later than either of the two (seemingly random) dates you referenced. I don't hear anyone crowing about those two immigrant populations destroying the fabric of America. Are you saying that only the conditions of 1880 or 1920 were conducive to successful immigration? If you are, that's not only historically inaccurate, but just fucking dumb.

3. "They are treated differently by governments" - yeah, no doubt, but the government has treated various immigrant groups differently, some better some worse. The current policies towards immigrants are no more punitive or beneficial than any past treatment of immigrant groups.

4. "The variables are so much different" - Again, agreed that the United States is not frozen in time, and people are not frozen in time. I don't think anyone would disagree with you that the world is a static place, but the two things that aren't much different are: (a) for better or worse over the past 200+ years America has been one of the most consistent places in the world where someone can become successful or improve their/their family's standing in life based on hard work, merit, achievement, and dedication, regardless of origin, background, education, alienate, parental success, etc.; and (b) the incalculable overwhelming majority of immigrants to this country regardless of where they come from, what color they are, what their religion is, if their country is a "shithole" or not, come here to try to make a better life for themselves and/or their family. That's why they are coming here, that is no different from any other immigrant group save one.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:00 pm 
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One Post wrote:
tommy wrote:
One Post wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

And of course we should take immigrants from horrible places, but we should make sure we can assimilate them. I think immigrant enclaves will tear America apart. And these enclaves are different than the Irish ghettoes or Little Italys in that the recent immigrants don't seem to have any desire to assimilate. We have to hop their children will against the wishes of the parents. It is a country's right to regulate who comes and how many.


About two years ago I heard a sociologist speak about immigration issues. Over the course of American immigration patterns, at any given time the opinion was that the prior immigrant group was a benefit to the country, but the current immigrant group was a detriment to the country. This has been the case regardless of time and regardless of country of origin.

There is no reason to think that someone from Haiti, Ghana, or El Salvador will be any less inclined to adhere to American values and desire to become part of the American culture than someone from Greece, Italy, or Poland was/is.

The same tired anecdotes about current ethnic groups not wanting to assimilate has been well worn and proven to be totally inaccurate.

Remember when Al Smith couldn't get elected president because the country thought that an Irish Catholic would be more loyal to the Pope, than he would be to America? I agree, it seems silly.

Little Italys, Chinatowns, Greektown, all of those are tourist attractions in various cities, 100, or 70, or 50 years ago, they were just poverty stricken parts of major cities where an ethnic group congregated for support, protection, assistance, and a shared struggle. I'm guessing 35 years from now it's going to be the same thing with Little El Slavadors, Little Africas, etc.

You may be right, but contexts change, and so this group of immigrants may be different. We can't assume they won't be. They are also treated differently by the Federal and local governments. The US is not the same country is was in 1880 or 1920; we also have no plans to suffer through two world wars and a Great Depression in order to halt immigration and Americanize the newcomers. It may very well happen that they turn out like the old immigrants, but that is not a given; the variables are so much different.


A few things to unpack here so I'll take them one at a time:

1. "We have no plans ...to halt immigration and Americanize the newcomers" - I'm interested in this Americanization program that you speak of. Was it a federal government program? Was it a state program? Was it a federal/state joint effort? Was private industry involved? What agencies administered this Americanization plan? I'm fairly knowledgeable about US History but I have never hear of this Americanization program that took place sometime in the 20th century. Please enlighten me. I'd like to know who proposed this program, was it done prior to the 20th century? There were immigrants prior to the 20th century, was the same program used to Americanize them?

2. "The US is not the same country as it was in 1880, or 1920" - Agreed, this applies as much to 1950, 1972, 1985, 2003, as it does to 2018. I don't get what you are saying, are you saying that the only successful immigration in US history took place in 1880 or 1920? I don't have the stats on hand to back this up, but I'd guess there were about 4 Koreans in the United States in 1920, and probably 3 people from Vietnam, the majority of immigrants from those countries arrived in the US much later than either of the two (seemingly random) dates you referenced. I don't hear anyone crowing about those two immigrant populations destroying the fabric of America. Are you saying that only the conditions of 1880 or 1920 were conducive to successful immigration? If you are, that's not only historically inaccurate, but just fucking dumb.

3. "They are treated differently by governments" - yeah, no doubt, but the government has treated various immigrant groups differently, some better some worse. The current policies towards immigrants are no more punitive or beneficial than any past treatment of immigrant groups.

4. "The variables are so much different" - Again, agreed that the United States is not frozen in time, and people are not frozen in time. I don't think anyone would disagree with you that the world is a static place, but the two things that aren't much different are: (a) for better or worse over the past 200+ years America has been one of the most consistent places in the world where someone can become successful or improve their/their family's standing in life based on hard work, merit, achievement, and dedication, regardless of origin, background, education, alienate, parental success, etc.; and (b) the incalculable overwhelming majority of immigrants to this country regardless of where they come from, what color they are, what their religion is, if their country is a "shithole" or not, come here to try to make a better life for themselves and/or their family. That's why they are coming here, that is no different from any other immigrant group save one.

Meh. Look up static and then we'll talk.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:28 pm 
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tommy wrote:
One Post wrote:
tommy wrote:
One Post wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

And of course we should take immigrants from horrible places, but we should make sure we can assimilate them. I think immigrant enclaves will tear America apart. And these enclaves are different than the Irish ghettoes or Little Italys in that the recent immigrants don't seem to have any desire to assimilate. We have to hop their children will against the wishes of the parents. It is a country's right to regulate who comes and how many.


About two years ago I heard a sociologist speak about immigration issues. Over the course of American immigration patterns, at any given time the opinion was that the prior immigrant group was a benefit to the country, but the current immigrant group was a detriment to the country. This has been the case regardless of time and regardless of country of origin.

There is no reason to think that someone from Haiti, Ghana, or El Salvador will be any less inclined to adhere to American values and desire to become part of the American culture than someone from Greece, Italy, or Poland was/is.

The same tired anecdotes about current ethnic groups not wanting to assimilate has been well worn and proven to be totally inaccurate.

Remember when Al Smith couldn't get elected president because the country thought that an Irish Catholic would be more loyal to the Pope, than he would be to America? I agree, it seems silly.

Little Italys, Chinatowns, Greektown, all of those are tourist attractions in various cities, 100, or 70, or 50 years ago, they were just poverty stricken parts of major cities where an ethnic group congregated for support, protection, assistance, and a shared struggle. I'm guessing 35 years from now it's going to be the same thing with Little El Slavadors, Little Africas, etc.

You may be right, but contexts change, and so this group of immigrants may be different. We can't assume they won't be. They are also treated differently by the Federal and local governments. The US is not the same country is was in 1880 or 1920; we also have no plans to suffer through two world wars and a Great Depression in order to halt immigration and Americanize the newcomers. It may very well happen that they turn out like the old immigrants, but that is not a given; the variables are so much different.


A few things to unpack here so I'll take them one at a time:

1. "We have no plans ...to halt immigration and Americanize the newcomers" - I'm interested in this Americanization program that you speak of. Was it a federal government program? Was it a state program? Was it a federal/state joint effort? Was private industry involved? What agencies administered this Americanization plan? I'm fairly knowledgeable about US History but I have never hear of this Americanization program that took place sometime in the 20th century. Please enlighten me. I'd like to know who proposed this program, was it done prior to the 20th century? There were immigrants prior to the 20th century, was the same program used to Americanize them?

2. "The US is not the same country as it was in 1880, or 1920" - Agreed, this applies as much to 1950, 1972, 1985, 2003, as it does to 2018. I don't get what you are saying, are you saying that the only successful immigration in US history took place in 1880 or 1920? I don't have the stats on hand to back this up, but I'd guess there were about 4 Koreans in the United States in 1920, and probably 3 people from Vietnam, the majority of immigrants from those countries arrived in the US much later than either of the two (seemingly random) dates you referenced. I don't hear anyone crowing about those two immigrant populations destroying the fabric of America. Are you saying that only the conditions of 1880 or 1920 were conducive to successful immigration? If you are, that's not only historically inaccurate, but just fucking dumb.

3. "They are treated differently by governments" - yeah, no doubt, but the government has treated various immigrant groups differently, some better some worse. The current policies towards immigrants are no more punitive or beneficial than any past treatment of immigrant groups.

4. "The variables are so much different" - Again, agreed that the United States is not frozen in time, and people are not frozen in time. I don't think anyone would disagree with you that the world is a static place, but the two things that aren't much different are: (a) for better or worse over the past 200+ years America has been one of the most consistent places in the world where someone can become successful or improve their/their family's standing in life based on hard work, merit, achievement, and dedication, regardless of origin, background, education, alienate, parental success, etc.; and (b) the incalculable overwhelming majority of immigrants to this country regardless of where they come from, what color they are, what their religion is, if their country is a "shithole" or not, come here to try to make a better life for themselves and/or their family. That's why they are coming here, that is no different from any other immigrant group save one.

Meh. Look up static and then we'll talk.


"is a static place", obviously should have been "isn't a static place."

Not for nothing, but if you are in the business of looking things up, take a gander at "context clues" and "reading comprehension".


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:16 pm 
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One Post wrote:
tommy wrote:
One Post wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

And of course we should take immigrants from horrible places, but we should make sure we can assimilate them. I think immigrant enclaves will tear America apart. And these enclaves are different than the Irish ghettoes or Little Italys in that the recent immigrants don't seem to have any desire to assimilate. We have to hop their children will against the wishes of the parents. It is a country's right to regulate who comes and how many.


About two years ago I heard a sociologist speak about immigration issues. Over the course of American immigration patterns, at any given time the opinion was that the prior immigrant group was a benefit to the country, but the current immigrant group was a detriment to the country. This has been the case regardless of time and regardless of country of origin.

There is no reason to think that someone from Haiti, Ghana, or El Salvador will be any less inclined to adhere to American values and desire to become part of the American culture than someone from Greece, Italy, or Poland was/is.

The same tired anecdotes about current ethnic groups not wanting to assimilate has been well worn and proven to be totally inaccurate.

Remember when Al Smith couldn't get elected president because the country thought that an Irish Catholic would be more loyal to the Pope, than he would be to America? I agree, it seems silly.

Little Italys, Chinatowns, Greektown, all of those are tourist attractions in various cities, 100, or 70, or 50 years ago, they were just poverty stricken parts of major cities where an ethnic group congregated for support, protection, assistance, and a shared struggle. I'm guessing 35 years from now it's going to be the same thing with Little El Slavadors, Little Africas, etc.

You may be right, but contexts change, and so this group of immigrants may be different. We can't assume they won't be. They are also treated differently by the Federal and local governments. The US is not the same country is was in 1880 or 1920; we also have no plans to suffer through two world wars and a Great Depression in order to halt immigration and Americanize the newcomers. It may very well happen that they turn out like the old immigrants, but that is not a given; the variables are so much different.


A few things to unpack here so I'll take them one at a time:

1. "We have no plans ...to halt immigration and Americanize the newcomers" - I'm interested in this Americanization program that you speak of. Was it a federal government program? Was it a state program? Was it a federal/state joint effort? Was private industry involved? What agencies administered this Americanization plan? I'm fairly knowledgeable about US History but I have never hear of this Americanization program that took place sometime in the 20th century. Please enlighten me. I'd like to know who proposed this program, was it done prior to the 20th century? There were immigrants prior to the 20th century, was the same program used to Americanize them?

2. "The US is not the same country as it was in 1880, or 1920" - Agreed, this applies as much to 1950, 1972, 1985, 2003, as it does to 2018. I don't get what you are saying, are you saying that the only successful immigration in US history took place in 1880 or 1920? I don't have the stats on hand to back this up, but I'd guess there were about 4 Koreans in the United States in 1920, and probably 3 people from Vietnam, the majority of immigrants from those countries arrived in the US much later than either of the two (seemingly random) dates you referenced. I don't hear anyone crowing about those two immigrant populations destroying the fabric of America. Are you saying that only the conditions of 1880 or 1920 were conducive to successful immigration? If you are, that's not only historically inaccurate, but just fucking dumb.

3. "They are treated differently by governments" - yeah, no doubt, but the government has treated various immigrant groups differently, some better some worse. The current policies towards immigrants are no more punitive or beneficial than any past treatment of immigrant groups.

4. "The variables are so much different" - Again, agreed that the United States is not frozen in time, and people are not frozen in time. I don't think anyone would disagree with you that the world is a static place, but the two things that aren't much different are: (a) for better or worse over the past 200+ years America has been one of the most consistent places in the world where someone can become successful or improve their/their family's standing in life based on hard work, merit, achievement, and dedication, regardless of origin, background, education, alienate, parental success, etc.; and (b) the incalculable overwhelming majority of immigrants to this country regardless of where they come from, what color they are, what their religion is, if their country is a "shithole" or not, come here to try to make a better life for themselves and/or their family. That's why they are coming here, that is no different from any other immigrant group save one.


Sorry, interrupted in the middle of replying--but I don't necessarily disagree with all of that. I don't think the US has good jobs right now and some of these immigrants have a sense of political and cultural entitlement that surprises me and seems different from previous groups. Too few in the mainstream have the guts to say that the system we have now is insane on every level and needs not to be reformed but junked and replaced and that illegal immigration is illegal.

ETA: But I agree with much of what you say.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:06 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:28 am
Posts: 3798
tommy wrote:
One Post wrote:
tommy wrote:
One Post wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

And of course we should take immigrants from horrible places, but we should make sure we can assimilate them. I think immigrant enclaves will tear America apart. And these enclaves are different than the Irish ghettoes or Little Italys in that the recent immigrants don't seem to have any desire to assimilate. We have to hop their children will against the wishes of the parents. It is a country's right to regulate who comes and how many.


About two years ago I heard a sociologist speak about immigration issues. Over the course of American immigration patterns, at any given time the opinion was that the prior immigrant group was a benefit to the country, but the current immigrant group was a detriment to the country. This has been the case regardless of time and regardless of country of origin.

There is no reason to think that someone from Haiti, Ghana, or El Salvador will be any less inclined to adhere to American values and desire to become part of the American culture than someone from Greece, Italy, or Poland was/is.

The same tired anecdotes about current ethnic groups not wanting to assimilate has been well worn and proven to be totally inaccurate.

Remember when Al Smith couldn't get elected president because the country thought that an Irish Catholic would be more loyal to the Pope, than he would be to America? I agree, it seems silly.

Little Italys, Chinatowns, Greektown, all of those are tourist attractions in various cities, 100, or 70, or 50 years ago, they were just poverty stricken parts of major cities where an ethnic group congregated for support, protection, assistance, and a shared struggle. I'm guessing 35 years from now it's going to be the same thing with Little El Slavadors, Little Africas, etc.

You may be right, but contexts change, and so this group of immigrants may be different. We can't assume they won't be. They are also treated differently by the Federal and local governments. The US is not the same country is was in 1880 or 1920; we also have no plans to suffer through two world wars and a Great Depression in order to halt immigration and Americanize the newcomers. It may very well happen that they turn out like the old immigrants, but that is not a given; the variables are so much different.


A few things to unpack here so I'll take them one at a time:

1. "We have no plans ...to halt immigration and Americanize the newcomers" - I'm interested in this Americanization program that you speak of. Was it a federal government program? Was it a state program? Was it a federal/state joint effort? Was private industry involved? What agencies administered this Americanization plan? I'm fairly knowledgeable about US History but I have never hear of this Americanization program that took place sometime in the 20th century. Please enlighten me. I'd like to know who proposed this program, was it done prior to the 20th century? There were immigrants prior to the 20th century, was the same program used to Americanize them?

2. "The US is not the same country as it was in 1880, or 1920" - Agreed, this applies as much to 1950, 1972, 1985, 2003, as it does to 2018. I don't get what you are saying, are you saying that the only successful immigration in US history took place in 1880 or 1920? I don't have the stats on hand to back this up, but I'd guess there were about 4 Koreans in the United States in 1920, and probably 3 people from Vietnam, the majority of immigrants from those countries arrived in the US much later than either of the two (seemingly random) dates you referenced. I don't hear anyone crowing about those two immigrant populations destroying the fabric of America. Are you saying that only the conditions of 1880 or 1920 were conducive to successful immigration? If you are, that's not only historically inaccurate, but just fucking dumb.

3. "They are treated differently by governments" - yeah, no doubt, but the government has treated various immigrant groups differently, some better some worse. The current policies towards immigrants are no more punitive or beneficial than any past treatment of immigrant groups.

4. "The variables are so much different" - Again, agreed that the United States is not frozen in time, and people are not frozen in time. I don't think anyone would disagree with you that the world is a static place, but the two things that aren't much different are: (a) for better or worse over the past 200+ years America has been one of the most consistent places in the world where someone can become successful or improve their/their family's standing in life based on hard work, merit, achievement, and dedication, regardless of origin, background, education, alienate, parental success, etc.; and (b) the incalculable overwhelming majority of immigrants to this country regardless of where they come from, what color they are, what their religion is, if their country is a "shithole" or not, come here to try to make a better life for themselves and/or their family. That's why they are coming here, that is no different from any other immigrant group save one.


Sorry, interrupted in the middle of replying--but I don't necessarily disagree with all of that. I don't think the US has good jobs right now and some of these immigrants have a sense of political and cultural entitlement that surprises me and seems different from previous groups. Too few in the mainstream have the guts to say that the system we have now is insane on every level and needs not to be reformed but junked and replaced and that illegal immigration is illegal.

ETA: But I agree with much of what you say.


Don't waste my time and board server space with your false anecdotal bullshit.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:29 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
I help to establish mosques. Not a mosque and not a handful of mosques.

Yikes.

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