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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:10 am 
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Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The entire conversation is dishonest. And the dishonesty is not coming from the pro-gun side.

The position on the anti-gun side is simply virtue signalling writ large. If you're not on board with "do something, do anything" regardless of whether or not it saves a single life, these people view you as a monster or even a murderer. And they won't hesitate to attack you as such. Marco Rubio was pretty much called a murderer at that town hall.

Let's be serious. The end game is to disarm the population. Of course no politician can say that. They know it's a loser. That's why they do this dance. And they attempt to ostracize people like Darkside. It's not even subtle.

This is an example of why, even though my politics are almost radically left (particularly when it comes to what I consider the core of what the Left is supposed to be about- the worker), I find mainstream liberalism so distasteful. It's based on the phony premise that "we're better than they are." That was actually articulated by Michelle Obama at the DNC and it's complete and utter bullshit.



I think you are being dishonest and a little hyperbolic. You once again focus on the extreme views of the very far left but ignore the very extreme views of the very far right. Those groups cancel on another out.

I assume that MANY here consider me to be liberal and maybe even far to the left. I don't want to disarm the population. If not for being a single father of 3 small kids I probably would still be a gun owner. Seeing the increase in these school shootings requires some action IMO. That's what we want. Guns aren't the problem. That's why MANY of us want to restrict some tools/ access for some members of society and require some form of education and training for new/all gun owners. That's far different from melting guns like gold.


How exactly am I being dishonest? You posted a topic cheering that town hall. You really don't see how it's a bad faith "argument" to haul out kids who were shot at a few days ago to cry and insult politicians?

Also, I don't consider you the slightest bit liberal. I often wonder why you aren't a Republican.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:12 am 
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The problem is the attitude of the anti-gun people. You can't turn on a TV without being lectured by basically every TV personality about what a monster you are if you don't want to enact some sort of undefined legislation that may help a little or not at all. And most of it is nonsense. It's great that people care, but the vast majority of these virtue signallers haven't the slightest idea what they're talking about. I guarantee there are only a handful who have any idea what laws are currently on the books. Think about how ridiculous that is... it would be like arguing that cars all drive too fast on the interstate so we should reduce the speed limit to 50. It's hilarious logic, really.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:15 am 
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The gun-fanatics will stop getting called names when they stop calling people who think a mentally unstable 19 year old shouldn't be able to buy an AR-15, gun-grabbers.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:15 am 
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storkinastorm wrote:
The problem is the attitude of the anti-gun people. You can't turn on a TV without being lectured by basically every TV personality about what a monster you are if you don't want to enact some sort of undefined legislation that may help a little or not at all. And most of it is nonsense.


i just turn on NRA TV


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:22 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The entire conversation is dishonest. And the dishonesty is not coming from the pro-gun side.

The position on the anti-gun side is simply virtue signalling writ large. If you're not on board with "do something, do anything" regardless of whether or not it saves a single life, these people view you as a monster or even a murderer. And they won't hesitate to attack you as such. Marco Rubio was pretty much called a murderer at that town hall.

Let's be serious. The end game is to disarm the population. Of course no politician can say that. They know it's a loser. That's why they do this dance. And they attempt to ostracize people like Darkside. It's not even subtle.

This is an example of why, even though my politics are almost radically left (particularly when it comes to what I consider the core of what the Left is supposed to be about- the worker), I find mainstream liberalism so distasteful. It's based on the phony premise that "we're better than they are." That was actually articulated by Michelle Obama at the DNC and it's complete and utter bullshit.



I think you are being dishonest and a little hyperbolic. You once again focus on the extreme views of the very far left but ignore the very extreme views of the very far right. Those groups cancel on another out.

I assume that MANY here consider me to be liberal and maybe even far to the left. I don't want to disarm the population. If not for being a single father of 3 small kids I probably would still be a gun owner. Seeing the increase in these school shootings requires some action IMO. That's what we want. Guns aren't the problem. That's why MANY of us want to restrict some tools/ access for some members of society and require some form of education and training for new/all gun owners. That's far different from melting guns like gold.


How exactly am I being dishonest? You posted a topic cheering that town hall. You really don't see how it's a bad faith "argument" to haul out kids who were shot at a few days ago to cry and insult politicians?

Also, I don't consider you the slightest bit liberal. I often wonder why you aren't a Republican.


I think you are being dishonest about the overwhelming majority of liberals wanting to disarm the population. I alsothink you overlook the extreme views of the very far right on gun issues. Everyone isn't like Darkside.

I love seeing kids active and passionate about issues. Are there people on both sides of the debate trying to influence them? Sure. I don't question if the kids are being genuine about wanting something to change though.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:25 am 
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Nas wrote:

I think you are being dishonest about the overwhelming majority of liberals wanting to disarm the population. .


Of course they are Nas. They are dramatic snowflakes. Hardly anyone is suggesting this.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:25 am 
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The 2nd Amendment is written very specifically. It's designed to absolutely not be open to interpretation. That doesn't mean it's perfect or even right, but the intention is clear. And if we start tossing core components of the Constitution, I'm not sure we have a country anymore.

If you don't think citizens "need" to own guns, you either believe (a) that an armed citizenry would stand no chance against the might U.S. government with its nukes, tanks, and air power (I think we've seen enough examples of armed citizens resisting to know that isn't true. The Afghans have now chased the two greatest military powers in history out of their country. The citizens just have to put up enough of a fight to make things difficult. Then there will usually be outside influence. Who knows? Maybe in two hundred years there will be a musical about the first president of the New Communist Republic, Tall Midget and his right hand man, Hilbiert Lafayetisov.) or (b) that the U.S. government is so benevolent that taking up arms against it would never be necessary (This is an extremely disingenuous position coming from those who have insisted for the past year and a half that Donald Trump is a dictator who is seizing power as we speak.)

The only other option is that you feel the trade off of trusting that the government will stay benign is a worthwhile one to make in order to eliminate or at least reduce gun violence. I think this is where Boilermaker Rick is coming from. That's not a dishonest position and it's a fair discussion. It would be similar to my feeling that risking a shoe bomber is worth it if I don't have to remove my shoes at the airport.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:27 am 
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Nas wrote:
I think you are being dishonest about the overwhelming majority of liberals wanting to disarm the population.


That is the only possible way to achieve their stated goals. There are trade offs for freedom.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:33 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The 2nd Amendment is written very specifically. It's designed to absolutely not be open to interpretation.


Ironic that it took a Supreme Court interpretation of it to come to the conclusion that the people are the militia.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:37 am 
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Terry's Peeps wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The 2nd Amendment is written very specifically. It's designed to absolutely not be open to interpretation.


Ironic that it took a Supreme Court interpretation of it to come to the conclusion that the people are the militia.

Image


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:38 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
I think you are being dishonest about the overwhelming majority of liberals wanting to disarm the population.


That is the only possible way to achieve their stated goals. There are trade offs for freedom.


Prohibiting or restricting access to some citizens and the banning of some tools/weapons has happened for decades and the country has been fine. I think a more educated and trained population would be better for all of us.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:48 am 
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Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
I think you are being dishonest about the overwhelming majority of liberals wanting to disarm the population.


That is the only possible way to achieve their stated goals. There are trade offs for freedom.


Prohibiting or restricting access to some citizens and the banning of some tools/weapons has happened for decades and the country has been fine. I think a more educated and trained population would be better for all of us.


Nas I find it particular disingenuous that the Gun folks have decided to compare their cause to the Civil rights movement.
Quote:
The same respect a man of color might want in respect to not being equated with being a gang member selling drugs by virtue of being black because a small fraction of his community might be in gangs.


I don't feel the plight of folks ability to buy assault weapons, unabated, is a fair comparison to the Civil Rights struggle the Black community has faced in the history of this country. Very unfortunate comment there.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:50 am 
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Darkside wrote:
You've heard from guys like me, who are listening to recommendations and are willing to endorse reasonable recommendations for additional controls and reasonable restrictions on specific weapons and even concessions we don't believe in such as magazine size.
But I'm reading us being called names like ammosexuals and "gun nuts" with our manhood questioned. Our motivations questioned. We're being characterized as hoping for a reason to kill people.
I am well aware that there are fringes of the community that may feel these things.
But do you want to be characterized by the opinions of the fringe community? Is that fair? Has not certain communities such as say, Muslims, not wished to be characterized by the actions of a small minority of terrorists? And the liberal community would agree. Until it comes to gun owners.
We're not all crazy. We don't want to hurt anyone. Some wing factions obviously exist but that does not define the 100 million gun owners in this country.

Try to have some bit of respect in your conversations. The same respect a man of color might want in respect to not being equated with being a gang member selling drugs by virtue of being black because a small fraction of his community might be in gangs.


because you have a booger in your nose that you are not aware of and I think its funny

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:55 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Darkside wrote:
You've heard from guys like me, who are listening to recommendations and are willing to endorse reasonable recommendations for additional controls and reasonable restrictions on specific weapons and even concessions we don't believe in such as magazine size.
But I'm reading us being called names like ammosexuals and "gun nuts" with our manhood questioned. Our motivations questioned. We're being characterized as hoping for a reason to kill people.
I am well aware that there are fringes of the community that may feel these things.
But do you want to be characterized by the opinions of the fringe community? Is that fair? Has not certain communities such as say, Muslims, not wished to be characterized by the actions of a small minority of terrorists? And the liberal community would agree. Until it comes to gun owners.
We're not all crazy. We don't want to hurt anyone. Some wing factions obviously exist but that does not define the 100 million gun owners in this country.

Try to have some bit of respect in your conversations. The same respect a man of color might want in respect to not being equated with being a gang member selling drugs by virtue of being black because a small fraction of his community might be in gangs.


because you have a booger in your nose that you are not aware of and I think its funny

That's fair.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:55 am 
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Darkside wrote:
You've heard from guys like me, who are listening to recommendations and are willing to endorse reasonable recommendations for additional controls and reasonable restrictions on specific weapons and even concessions we don't believe in such as magazine size.
But I'm reading us being called names like ammosexuals and "gun nuts" with our manhood questioned. Our motivations questioned. We're being characterized as hoping for a reason to kill people.
I am well aware that there are fringes of the community that may feel these things.
But do you want to be characterized by the opinions of the fringe community? Is that fair? Has not certain communities such as say, Muslims, not wished to be characterized by the actions of a small minority of terrorists? And the liberal community would agree. Until it comes to gun owners.
We're not all crazy. We don't want to hurt anyone. Some wing factions obviously exist but that does not define the 100 million gun owners in this country.

Try to have some bit of respect in your conversations. The same respect a man of color might want in respect to not being equated with being a gang member selling drugs by virtue of being black because a small fraction of his community might be in gangs.


Also, people aren't reacting to wing factions. They are reacting to the position of your spokesman. You may say they don't represent you but on some level gun owners either have to rebel against the NRA in some fashion, demand a change in their positions from within or wear it.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:00 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The entire conversation is dishonest. And the dishonesty is not coming from the pro-gun side.

The position on the anti-gun side is simply virtue signalling writ large. If you're not on board with "do something, do anything" regardless of whether or not it saves a single life, these people view you as a monster or even a murderer. And they won't hesitate to attack you as such. Marco Rubio was pretty much called a murderer at that town hall.

Let's be serious. The end game is to disarm the population. Of course no politician can say that. They know it's a loser. That's why they do this dance. And they attempt to ostracize people like Darkside. It's not even subtle.

This is an example of why, even though my politics are almost radically left (particularly when it comes to what I consider the core of what the Left is supposed to be about- the worker), I find mainstream liberalism so distasteful. It's based on the phony premise that "we're better than they are." That was actually articulated by Michelle Obama at the DNC and it's complete and utter bullshit.

I've now won the argument that I'm more liberal than you!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:01 am 
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I don't look at them in any way. Unless they are pointing their gun at me in which case my eyes get real wide.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:03 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
I think you are being dishonest about the overwhelming majority of liberals wanting to disarm the population.


That is the only possible way to achieve their stated goals. There are trade offs for freedom.


Prohibiting or restricting access to some citizens and the banning of some tools/weapons has happened for decades and the country has been fine. I think a more educated and trained population would be better for all of us.


Nas I find it particular disingenuous that the Gun folks have decided to compare their cause to the Civil rights movement.
Quote:
The same respect a man of color might want in respect to not being equated with being a gang member selling drugs by virtue of being black because a small fraction of his community might be in gangs.


I don't feel the plight of folks ability to buy assault weapons, unabated, is a fair comparison to the Civil Rights struggle the Black community has faced in the history of this country. Very unfortunate comment there.


My reading of that was "Don't assume the worst of me because of the words or actions of a minority of people in a group that I am affiliated with." I have no issue with that and in most cases would agree with it.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:05 am 
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good dolphin wrote:
Darkside wrote:
You've heard from guys like me, who are listening to recommendations and are willing to endorse reasonable recommendations for additional controls and reasonable restrictions on specific weapons and even concessions we don't believe in such as magazine size.
But I'm reading us being called names like ammosexuals and "gun nuts" with our manhood questioned. Our motivations questioned. We're being characterized as hoping for a reason to kill people.
I am well aware that there are fringes of the community that may feel these things.
But do you want to be characterized by the opinions of the fringe community? Is that fair? Has not certain communities such as say, Muslims, not wished to be characterized by the actions of a small minority of terrorists? And the liberal community would agree. Until it comes to gun owners.
We're not all crazy. We don't want to hurt anyone. Some wing factions obviously exist but that does not define the 100 million gun owners in this country.

Try to have some bit of respect in your conversations. The same respect a man of color might want in respect to not being equated with being a gang member selling drugs by virtue of being black because a small fraction of his community might be in gangs.


Also, people aren't reacting to wing factions. They are reacting to the position of your spokesman. You may say they don't represent you but on some level gun owners either have to rebel against the NRA in some fashion, demand a change in their positions from within or wear it.

42% of American homes have a gun in it.
5 million NRA members.
They are not our spokesman.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:05 am 
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Most gun owners are fine and not gun nuts. Some enable the gun nuts like supporting the NRA after those terrible excuses they made this week but I understand they do it because they are scared of their guns being taken away while also thinking the 2nd amendment will never be repealed.

Real gun nuts like the Bundys that steal from all of us like armed robbers are terrible though.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:07 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Most gun owners are fine and not gun nuts. Some enable the gun nuts like supporting the NRA after those terrible excuses they made this week but I understand they do it because they are scared of their guns being taken away while also thinking the 2nd amendment will never be repealed.

Real gun nuts like the Bundys that steal from all of us like armed robbers are terrible though.


When did that happen?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:07 am 
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Nas wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
I think you are being dishonest about the overwhelming majority of liberals wanting to disarm the population.


That is the only possible way to achieve their stated goals. There are trade offs for freedom.


Prohibiting or restricting access to some citizens and the banning of some tools/weapons has happened for decades and the country has been fine. I think a more educated and trained population would be better for all of us.


Nas I find it particular disingenuous that the Gun folks have decided to compare their cause to the Civil rights movement.
Quote:
The same respect a man of color might want in respect to not being equated with being a gang member selling drugs by virtue of being black because a small fraction of his community might be in gangs.


I don't feel the plight of folks ability to buy assault weapons, unabated, is a fair comparison to the Civil Rights struggle the Black community has faced in the history of this country. Very unfortunate comment there.


My reading of that was "Don't assume the worst of me because of the words or actions of a minority of people in a group that I am affiliated with." I have no issue with that and in most cases would agree with it.

True, but people don't choose their race or ethnicity. You choose your political/social beliefs. And often your beliefs contradict that of someone else. I don't feel the comparison was on point.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:09 am 
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Caller Bob wrote:
Nas wrote:
Caller Bob wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
I think you are being dishonest about the overwhelming majority of liberals wanting to disarm the population.


That is the only possible way to achieve their stated goals. There are trade offs for freedom.


Prohibiting or restricting access to some citizens and the banning of some tools/weapons has happened for decades and the country has been fine. I think a more educated and trained population would be better for all of us.


Nas I find it particular disingenuous that the Gun folks have decided to compare their cause to the Civil rights movement.
Quote:
The same respect a man of color might want in respect to not being equated with being a gang member selling drugs by virtue of being black because a small fraction of his community might be in gangs.


I don't feel the plight of folks ability to buy assault weapons, unabated, is a fair comparison to the Civil Rights struggle the Black community has faced in the history of this country. Very unfortunate comment there.


My reading of that was "Don't assume the worst of me because of the words or actions of a minority of people in a group that I am affiliated with." I have no issue with that and in most cases would agree with it.

True, but people don't choose their race or ethnicity. You choose your political/social beliefs. And often your beliefs contradict that of someone else. I don't feel the comparison was on point.


That's fair.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:09 am 
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Big Chicagoan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Most gun owners are fine and not gun nuts. Some enable the gun nuts like supporting the NRA after those terrible excuses they made this week but I understand they do it because they are scared of their guns being taken away while also thinking the 2nd amendment will never be repealed.

Real gun nuts like the Bundys that steal from all of us like armed robbers are terrible though.


When did that happen?

They owe over a million to the government in grazing fees that are already artificially low.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:10 am 
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Darkside wrote:
42% of American homes have a gun in it.
5 million NRA members.
They are not our spokesman.


They control($$$) roughly 30%(if not more) of our elected representatives. They kinda are.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:11 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Big Chicagoan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Most gun owners are fine and not gun nuts. Some enable the gun nuts like supporting the NRA after those terrible excuses they made this week but I understand they do it because they are scared of their guns being taken away while also thinking the 2nd amendment will never be repealed.

Real gun nuts like the Bundys that steal from all of us like armed robbers are terrible though.


When did that happen?

They owe over a million to the government in grazing fees that are already artificially low.



Okay, so when did they steal from me like armed robbers?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:12 am 
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Darkside wrote:
good dolphin wrote:
Darkside wrote:
You've heard from guys like me, who are listening to recommendations and are willing to endorse reasonable recommendations for additional controls and reasonable restrictions on specific weapons and even concessions we don't believe in such as magazine size.
But I'm reading us being called names like ammosexuals and "gun nuts" with our manhood questioned. Our motivations questioned. We're being characterized as hoping for a reason to kill people.
I am well aware that there are fringes of the community that may feel these things.
But do you want to be characterized by the opinions of the fringe community? Is that fair? Has not certain communities such as say, Muslims, not wished to be characterized by the actions of a small minority of terrorists? And the liberal community would agree. Until it comes to gun owners.
We're not all crazy. We don't want to hurt anyone. Some wing factions obviously exist but that does not define the 100 million gun owners in this country.

Try to have some bit of respect in your conversations. The same respect a man of color might want in respect to not being equated with being a gang member selling drugs by virtue of being black because a small fraction of his community might be in gangs.


Also, people aren't reacting to wing factions. They are reacting to the position of your spokesman. You may say they don't represent you but on some level gun owners either have to rebel against the NRA in some fashion, demand a change in their positions from within or wear it.

42% of American homes have a gun in it.
5 million NRA members.
They are not our spokesman.


Not my president

You ask why. I tell you why.

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Last edited by good dolphin on Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:12 am 
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Darkside wrote:
You've heard from guys like me, who are listening to recommendations and are willing to endorse reasonable recommendations for additional controls and reasonable restrictions on specific weapons and even concessions we don't believe in such as magazine size.
But I'm reading us being called names like ammosexuals and "gun nuts" with our manhood questioned. Our motivations questioned. We're being characterized as hoping for a reason to kill people.
I am well aware that there are fringes of the community that may feel these things.
But do you want to be characterized by the opinions of the fringe community? Is that fair? Has not certain communities such as say, Muslims, not wished to be characterized by the actions of a small minority of terrorists? And the liberal community would agree. Until it comes to gun owners.
We're not all crazy. We don't want to hurt anyone. Some wing factions obviously exist but that does not define the 100 million gun owners in this country.

Try to have some bit of respect in your conversations. The same respect a man of color might want in respect to not being equated with being a gang member selling drugs by virtue of being black because a small fraction of his community might be in gangs.

Because the 'ammosexuals' (That is great, hadn't seen that yet) are the ones with the money and the power to sway lawmakers. You're willing to negotiate reasonable controls and concessions. But you're not in a position to. The NRA and its money is doubling up to try ensure that absolutely no 'ground' is given. The NRA has been chosen by you folks as your representing body.
Caller Bob wrote:
Darkside wrote:
42% of American homes have a gun in it.
5 million NRA members.
They are not our spokesman.


They control($$$) roughly 30%(if not more) of our elected representatives. They kinda are.

This.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:12 am 
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Big Chicagoan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Big Chicagoan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Most gun owners are fine and not gun nuts. Some enable the gun nuts like supporting the NRA after those terrible excuses they made this week but I understand they do it because they are scared of their guns being taken away while also thinking the 2nd amendment will never be repealed.

Real gun nuts like the Bundys that steal from all of us like armed robbers are terrible though.


When did that happen?

They owe over a million to the government in grazing fees that are already artificially low.



Okay, so when did they steal from me like armed robbers?

You pay taxes?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:16 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Big Chicagoan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Big Chicagoan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Most gun owners are fine and not gun nuts. Some enable the gun nuts like supporting the NRA after those terrible excuses they made this week but I understand they do it because they are scared of their guns being taken away while also thinking the 2nd amendment will never be repealed.

Real gun nuts like the Bundys that steal from all of us like armed robbers are terrible though.


When did that happen?

They owe over a million to the government in grazing fees that are already artificially low.



Okay, so when did they steal from me like armed robbers?

You pay taxes?


Of course, but they didn't take any of my money. They didn't stick up any of us like armed robbers. They took what you think is rightfully the US Government's money. It's not like the government takes more money from me because these guys didn't pay a couple million bucks.


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